Flag with ship name reversed on one side?

[daschc01]

I have a model of the Atlantic from Bluejacket. It came with several paper flags in the kit for mounting at the top of the mast. One of them is a long streamer type flag with the ship name on one side. On the other side the ship's name is reversed. Is this accurate? 

[allanyed]

This is an interesting question.   I did not realize schooners flew pennants with the vessel's name on it but assuming they did, why would the name be backwards on one side?   Weren't the letters painted or sewn on each side?  If that is the case, there is no reason to have one side backwards.   I am curious to know if they actually flew pennants with the name and if so, were they backwards?

 

Allan

[Scottish Guy]

I´m not a specialist on this topic but if logical and honest, it wouldn´t make sense to write the name backwards on the pennant. I think it´s hard already to read a pennant from far distances but then even backwards would make it even harder. Also people had issues with reading in that times. I saw some penannts of naval marine ships (for a Commodore) which shows a mirrored image of the port side on the starboard side. Which makes sense because they have a ver strange shape and putting it the opposite way around on the starboard side doesn´t make any sense.

 

    

Left: Flag for the Vice Admiral White Squadron (1805-1864)     │     Right: Flag of the Vice Admiral White Squadron flying on a Mast

 

 

Unfortunately the newer flags (pennants) look different to the older ones...

 

    

Left: Pennant of the Royal NavyFlying     │Right: Pennant of the Commodore of the Fleet Royal Navy

 

AS you can see in the right picture this is taken from the starboard side view and the pennant shows exactly the same just morrored. I think this is attributed to the way how flags are made (at least nowadays). They are not multi-layered so it would shine through anyway. Which would explan why the name in this case of the "Atlantic" makes sense, the name shines through and maybe got just some stitches on the starboard side. But it wouldn´t make sense since it would be much harder to read.

 

The question here would be more likely if name pennants have been as dual layer flags (with two layers sewn together with the name in the right - readable - direction). With military flags stating a rank or country it definitely doesn´t make sense because it could falsify the identity by reading or aknowledging the country wrong.

 

My humble opinion about it, I also couldn´t find much about pennants with names on it, most likely military penannats stating a rank or which ship has the high ranking officer on board.

 

Micha

Edited April 27 by Scottish Guy

[wefalck]

Pennants or streamers with the ship's name on it are commonly seen on paintings of merchant craft (sail and steam!) throughout the 19th century.

 

I don't know, whether these were sewn on or painted, but tend to think they were sewn for longer life. Given that the material of pennant would be very light, in translucent light they would become viurtually unreadable, if they were executed with the lettering in the correct way on both side.

 

Usually, the name begins on the side towards the mast. I seem to recall having seen paintings, where the lettering on the pennant was in mirror image.

 

Usually these name pennants were flown from the truck of the main mast or the foremast of schooners and brigs. I suspect on long sea-passages they were taken down. As most ship's portraits show the ship near the coast, they are usually represented.

 

In the second half of the 19th. century or so, name pennants were gradually replaced by number flags for identification (which required that you had to have an up-to-date 'flag-book' to hand). On paintings they are often seen together though.

 

 

Edited April 27 by wefalck

[popeye2sea]

It is not that unusual to see the reversed name on the opposite side.  I have observed this in modern flags also.  Think about how it would look on a translucent material in good lighting.  You would hardly be able to read either side because different letters would be occupying the same position. For instance you would see not just the letter A but also a reversed letter C superimposed on each other making both nearly impossible to make out.

 

I used to fly flotilla command pennants from naval vessels with the number in reverse on one side.

 

Regards,

 

Henry

[allanyed]

Did civilian yacht schooners like this one ever actually fly a pennant with their name on it?  Not sure if were are any international maritime laws in 1903 that describe/prohibit pennants with ship names?   There are many examples of pennants, especially military, but I cannot find anything about names on pennants.  One good article that is pretty informative for today is https://www.flags.com/blog/your-guide-to-nautical-flag-etiquette/

Allan

[daschc01]

All--Thanks so much for the responses on this oddball question. I think if the name was 'ebroidered' so to speak, it would make sense. I have also seen these on maritime ship paintings but never in real life. I did some more digging and found 2 examples of a backward letters and several readable 'forward' lettering. So based on that search and your comments, I will leave it as reversed on one side.

[Harvey Golden]

 I can't tell if "Otto" is forwards or backwards.  

[Dr PR]

It is interesting that this topic came up now. Yesterday I watched a video of the ketch Bessie Ellen sailing the Hebrides Islands recently.

 

Tall Ship Sailing the Hebrides:

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mElJHueAUmM

 

When they neared port a pennant with the vessel's name was flown from the main truck. So the tradition is still used in England (the vessel was registered in Plymouth).

 

If I remember correctly (it was just a brief bit of the video showing them raising the pennant) the pennant was on a short spar. It appeared one end of the halyard was attached at about the middle of the spar, below the pennant. It lead up to the truck and back down (like a flag halliard), where the other end was attached to the bottom of the spar. As it was hoisted some drag was applied to the line on the lower end to hold the spar upright. When it reached the top both ends were belayed together at a pin rail.

 

The pennant was triangular, and I think it was white with a red border and red lettering. There are lots of images of the ship with the pennant flying right at the beginning of the video, especially at time 3:55.

Edited April 28 by Dr PR

[Scottish Guy]

6 hours ago, allanyed said:

There are many examples of pennants, especially military, but I cannot find anything about names on pennants

 

I had the same issues, I could find a lot about military ships flying pennants, most likely for displaying the ship with leading officers (commodore, admirals etc.) or even squadrons but nothing about civilian merchant ships flying pennants.

I found pictures (drawings and paintings) with merchant ships flying pennants but the question here is, was it the artistic freedom of the artist to just draw them in to make it easier to identify his intentions or was this based on common habits that ships at the time were flying pennants? I prefer to think that it more likely is an artistic statement but not presenting common habits of merchant ships of that time. Otherwise there should be evidence or descriptions of any common habits in historical documents of this times.

 

Micha

[Scottish Guy]

3 hours ago, daschc01 said:

All--Thanks so much for the responses on this oddball question. I think if the name was 'ebroidered' so to speak, it would make sense. I have also seen these on maritime ship paintings but never in real life. I did some more digging and found 2 examples of a backward letters and several readable 'forward' lettering. So based on that search and your comments, I will leave it as reversed on one side.

 

I don´t know where you can read names backwards on those pictures (paintings) because I can´t. In the 2nd picture to be honest, the name OTTO is a palindrome therefore it doesn´t matter which way you write it because it will read the same in both ways like rotator or kayak or... OTTO?

 

The name in the 3rd picture I can´t read a name at all, therefore it´s unclear if the name is written backwards or not. Also does the flying of the pennants (tbh of all flags) look a bit weird compared to the sails. Especailly when you compare the national flags with the smaller flags and pennants. The flow doesn´t look natural nor correct. Like I stated in my privious answer, I´m wondering if this is not an artistic "freedom" by the painter to give the ships names and make them unique. There is nowhere any kind of evidence to be found that merchant ships or civilian ships flown pennants at all. Only on military ships it is proven by historical documents.

 

Micha

[Scottish Guy]

2 hours ago, Dr PR said:

Tall Ship Sailing the Hebrides:

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mElJHueAUmM

 

I know that video (I mean, I live in Scotland on the North Coast) and I rewatched it (have to admit, the first time I watched it I didn´t check on the pennant) and there are more videos (also from the ship itself - they have their own YouTube channel). Here in the video it`s clear to see that the name is written backwards on one side (starboard). But again, the question is, has it been this way all the time or is this just a modern thing (the manufacturing process of flags changed dramatically over the last century) and most flags are made in one layer and not in two or more layers (which you would need to write the name in the correct way on each side to prevent it to be unreadable by shining through).

 

But thank you for bringing a video of my home to this channel made me smile even if Oban is way to much "touristic" for me...

 

Micha

[Bob Cleek]

On 4/27/2024 at 3:09 AM, allanyed said:

This is an interesting question.   I did not realize schooners flew pennants with the vessel's name on it but assuming they did, why would the name be backwards on one side?   Weren't the letters painted or sewn on each side?  If that is the case, there is no reason to have one side backwards.   I am curious to know if they actually flew pennants with the name and if so, were they backwards?

 

Allan

Pennants used to identify individual vessels, be they naval, merchant, or pleasure craft, were commonly carried prior to the wider use of code signals (flags) to indicate the code (usually "five level" - five letters and or numbers) assigned to the vessel by navies, marine insurance companies, and national documentation agencies.

 

Pennants were rarely opaque with lettering on both sides. Actually, in practice, it was much easier at a distance to identify a signal that wasn't opaque because the sun would shine both on it or behind and through it. If a pennant or signal were opaque, its "shaded side" would appear black at a distance. Additionally, there are advantages to a pennant or signal being made of light cloth which will readily "fly," in light air. In fact, when a square-rigged vessel is running downwind, her signals, ensigns, and pennants on the ship moving at close to the speed of the wind itself, would cause the signals, pennants, and ensigns to "hang limp" and be difficult to see at any distance.

 

Even today, when racing sailboats routinely show "sail numbers" on their sails to identify themselves, the numbers must appear reversed on the "back side" and no attempt is made to overcome this. The international racing rules require that sail number and class logo, if appropriate, must be shown on both sides of the mainsail in that case each side of the sail will have the number shown "in the right direction." There are very specific universal regulations for the placement of sail numbers on racing yachts which specifically dictate how the obverse and reverse lettering must be applied to a vessel's sails. (See: TRRS | Identification on sails (racingrulesofsailing.org) Today, adhesive-backed numbers and letters are applied to synthetic fabric sails. In earlier times, the letters and numbers were cut out and appliqued to the sail. 

 

 

 

In earlier times, several systems, other than identification code signals, were in common use and these are what we commonly see on contemporary paintings. The two primary signals used were a large flag or pennant with the vessel's name on it, or the owner's name, or company name, on it, or a logo of some sort. The latter were usually called "house flags" which designated the identity of the owner of the vessel. When steam power came on the scene, these owner's "house flags" were supplemented by painting the funnels of the steam ships with the colors and logos of the owners' house flags as well.

 

House flag chart from the 1930's or so: 

 

 

The house flags and ship name pennants we see in the contemporary paintings serve to identify the vessel in the painting, but in order to fully appreciate the purpose of "naming pennants" and house flags, it has to be understood that until radio communications came into being (first Marconi transmission at sea by RMS Lucania in 1901 and first continuous radio communication with land during an Atlantic crossing ... RMS Lucania in 1903.) there was no way for a ship owner to know much of anything about their vessel until it returned home which, in the case of whaling vessels could be two or three years. Shipping companies, marine insurers, and maritime shipping companies, among others, had a desperate need for news about their ships, but they could only know the fate of their ships, crew, and cargo (though not necessarily in that order!) when the ship showed up. Ships at sea would hail each other when they ran into one another at sea: "What ship? What port?" and sometimes get word back to owners that their ship was seen, on the Pacific whaling grounds, for instance, months or even years earlier, but there was no way to know what was going on with a ship until she returned to her home port. Businesses ashore were desperate to know the fate of ships and shipments and being the first to learn of a particular ship's arrival in port gave a businessman a particular advantage in making investments, commodities trades, purchases, and sales. This was especially true in the United States before the construction of the transcontinental telegraph system owing to the immense size of the nation "from sea to shining sea." For example, in San Francisco, which was for a time shortly after the discovery of gold, isolated from communications with the East Coast, things as simple as newspapers would arrive only by ship and when they did, the race was on to get in line to read the "news of the world." An organization called the "Merchants' Exchange" was created to operate a semaphore telegraph system from Point Lobos at the farthest west point of the San Francisco Península to what came to be called "Telegraph Hill" to communicate the identity of ships arriving off the Golden Gate often many hours before they actually docked and to make East Coast newspapers and other information sources available to local subscribers. On the East Coast, seaport homes had their famous "widows' walks" where the ship captain's wives would look for their husband's ship in the offing to know whether he'd ever return, and they'd know by the house flag which ship was which. 

 

  

 

 

5 hours ago, Dr PR said:

If I remember correctly (it was just a brief bit of the video showing them raising the pennant) the pennant was on a short spar. It appeared one end of the halyard was attached at about the middle of the spar, below the pennant. It lead up to the truck and back down (like a flag halliard), where the other end was attached to the bottom of the spar. As it was hoisted some drag was applied to the line on the lower end to hold the spar upright. When it reached the top both ends were belayed together at a pin rail.

Yes. That's a good description of the device used to set pennants and house flags "flying." The device is called a "pig stick" as it is a short stick similar to what a pig farmer would use to herd his pigs. A pig stick has a wire or wooden "auxiliary stick" from which the flag or pennant is flown independent of the main stick. This device, pictured below, prevents the signal or pennant from wrapping around the "pig stick" and fouling on the pole or otherwise becoming unreadable. 

 

 

 

The middle two paintings of ships posted above show those two ships simultaneously flying a "name pennant" from the maintop, a "house flag" from the foremast top, and a "five level code" (likely assigned by Lloyds Insurers.) identifying the vessel in a commonly redundant fashion at that time.

Edited April 28 by Bob Cleek

[allanyed]

I REALLY appreciate the history and you taking the time to share this information Bob.

Thank you!

Allan

[Bob Cleek]

11 minutes ago, allanyed said:

I REALLY appreciate the history and you taking the time to share this information Bob.

Thank you!

Allan

Happy to oblige, Allan! If it weren't for opportunities to share this trivia, I'd have no excuse for storing all of it in my cranial hard drive!  

[Marcus.K.]

Thanks Bob, for that very intersting insights.

 

Any idea about the year that New Bedford Flags Signal Flag "Poster" was done?

[Bob Cleek]

11 hours ago, Marcus.K. said:

Thanks Bob, for that very intersting insights.

 

Any idea about the year that New Bedford Flags Signal Flag "Poster" was done?

Hard to say the date on the New Bedford Flags poster. I tried to enlarge it, but I couldn't get a legible look at the date, if any. It's from a Pinterest post that credits it to the New Bedford Whaling Museum's collection. (Home - New Bedford Whaling Museum) You could probably call them and ask. You might get lucky and connect with somebody who could check for you. The "poster" does contain the identity of the printer, although I can read it, and it probably has a copyright date on it somewhere. It looks to have been a printer's advertising "give-away." The New Bedford Whaling Museum isn't a large museum and so staff may be accessible by phone or email, unlike much larger institutions. It's a great museum nonetheless and definitely worth a visit. (Also the home of the largest whaling ship model in the world,  Lagoda at 1:2 scale. Lagoda - Wikipedia )

[Dr PR]

Bob,

 

Thanks for the information on the pig stick!

[Marcus.K.]

7 hours ago, Bob Cleek said:

Hard to say the date on the New Bedford Flags poster. I tried to enlarge it, but I couldn't get a legible look at the date, if any. It's from a Pinterest post that credits it to the New Bedford Whaling Museum's collection. (Home - New Bedford Whaling Museum) You could probably call them and ask. You might get lucky and connect with somebody who could check for you. ...." The New Bedford Whaling Museum isn't a large museum and so staff may be accessible by phone or email, unlike much larger institutions. It's a great museum nonetheless and definitely worth a visit. (Also the home of the largest whaling ship model in the world,  Lagoda at 1:2 scale. Lagoda - Wikipedia )

Question is raised via e-mail... I´ll let you know whenever I get an answer!

I marked the most important statement 😀 - and whenever I will be in New England: this for sure is one of the oh-so-many places I will visit!

[Bob Cleek]

13 hours ago, Marcus.K. said:

- and whenever I will be in New England: this for sure is one of the oh-so-many places I will visit!

It's just a short drive from Mystic Seaport in the town of New Bedford a couple of blocks from the waterfront. It's not in a real "touristy" area, or wasn't when I was last there years ago. New Bedford is, or was, still a working waterfront back then. If whaling is your thing and you're in the area, take the ferry from Hyannis to Nantucket and check out the whaling museum there. It's a very good one as well. 

[Harvey Golden]

On 4/28/2024 at 4:32 AM, Marcus.K. said:

Thanks Bob, for that very intersting insights.

 

Any idea about the year that New Bedford Flags Signal Flag "Poster" was done?

Originally published 1857.  Higher-res image here: https://www.eldreds.com/auction-lot/print-private-signals-of-the-whaling-vessels-c._EFE4B748D8  My wife's family's flag is on it-- one of the Howlands. 

[Javelin]

kind of funny. I just saw this question and this very evening I stumbled across this painting: 

 Michiel Loos merchant ship

 

The name on that pennant, indeed the vessel's name, is also reversed... and the pennant colors in exactly the same style as yours.

 

And yes, I know, funny, the flags are pointing aft while under sail...

Edited April 29 by Javelin