HMS Echo by Hamilton - 1:48 - Admiralty Models - cross-section

[hamilton]

1 hour ago, davec said:

Hi Hamilton - I have the Echo plans from NMM.  I've taken a picture of the decking plan, which does not include the location of the carlings.  Not sure what usual practice was at the time, but you aren't constrained by actual documentation of the ship regarding carling location.

 

 

Thanks for the photos Dave and Greg !

 

Dave - I would assume that the outline of the well would serve as a guide for the placement of the carlings, since all 4 chain pump shafts run down there. The odd thing is that all of the width measures I used - for the well, the mast partners and the slots between the carlings - were all correct, and the gauge given on the drawings in the practicum measured out at 3", indicating no distortion from printing....it is always possible that I placed the lower deck clamps incorrectly and that is throwing off the measures a bit, though I'm not sure how or if that would affect things in this way....

 

At this point, I'm considering two solutions - one inspired by Greg's reply above, the other by the promise of improving on the construction aspects of the well....

 

The first idea is to keep the pump shafts full from the lower deck planking upwards, but then notch them below the lower deck to fit the narrower slot. This would allow me to use the current well, which was built to the dimensions given in the contract. This "cheat" would not be visible on the finished model, though obviously we would all know it was there.

 

The second idea (which I've already commenced on by not committed to) is to re-build the well at a slightly wider dimension to bring its sides out in line with the carlings above. This will be a much more noticeable change to the well's construction since it will result in a much chubbier well.....

 

The only thing currently arguing against option 1 is that I already dismantled the original well for parts....the fore, mid and aft panels are still intact, though, so it would only be a matter of re-planking the sides, and re-doing the framing for the shot locker and the shot locker lids. 

 

Since I can pursue both options without committing to either, I think I will prepare for both and make a decision when it's time to install the well permanently - which won't be for a while in any case....glad that the speed of this hobby allows for some mulling over of problems and challenges!

 

Thanks again Dave and Greg - very helpful!!

hamilton

Edited September 2 by hamilton

[dvm27]

I looked into my cross section to see if I had the same problem but my pumps appear to have the proper clearance. If not, I would adjust the carlings by moving them a bit and or mortising to accommodate the pumps. 

 

[dvm27]

The simplest solution, if you don't mind a bit of a compromise, is to end the brake pumps at the main deck. The bottom segment which protrudes into the well is invisible (hidden by planking and the mast partner).

[hamilton]

Thanks Greg - ending the pump shafts at the lower deck is a good solution - though I wonder if, viewed from aft, the issue would turn up visually in the alignment of the shafts and the well....as mentioned above, I think I'll pursue both/all solutions until I have to commit to something. I started making a new well at wider dimensions - I'll post some photos later of the width discrepancy - it's not insignificant, though I think I've produced a cleaner and nicer-looking result. But it may look pretty daft with the extra width....and certainly not accurate!

hamilton

 

[DaKea90]

There is one thing, I'm quite curious about: There are so many people who build a cross-section of the Echo - why is noone building a full model of her? oO Greenwich has a full set of plans of her including an image of her stern decorations! Is it that she's just in a weird spot sizewise - too big for a small build but too small for a proper big multi-year project?

[dvm27]

We had lofted a sheer plan and frames years ago. We sold a few of them but no one ever built a model of her to my knowledge. It’s a shame because she would be a beautiful model!

[hamilton]

So all the talk has convinced me that I should stick with the original well measurements and cheat on the pump shafts by terminating them at lower deck level, as suggested by Greg, above. This will hopefully allow me to avoid the alignment issue with the passage of the pumps through the upper deck, as noted by davec.

 

I've already made the front and centre panels of the wider well that I had planned, so I think I will just modify these to the proper well measurements and go on from there.....I may also make some adjustments to the carlings if that helps with alignment issues....

 

Thanks all for the input and suggestions - it has certainly helped to clarify a path forward

hamilton

[hamilton]

So I did end up going ahead and building the wider well just because I was already half way through and wanted to see how it looked. It did turn out much better than the first one, just from a construction perspective, and it fits nicely below the deck pattern (everything lines up as it should). I will re-make it (a third time!) with the correct proportions, but thought I would show this version just to have it out there.

 

Also - I did some experiments with notching out wood strips as practice for when I need to fit the carlings and ledges. I used off cuts from the lower deck deck beams and milled a few strips of 6" x 4.5" (the dimensions of the carlings. I clamped the deck beam offcuts to a piece of plywood, marked out the notch and then lightly tapped along the markings to score the wood. I then turned the piece onto its face and chiseled out the wood using a 1/8" chisel. The first experiments are ok - not a totally exact fit, but I'm not very experienced with chisels so......I have a bunch of these to cut, so I imagine I'll get used to it, but the smaller notches for the ledges will be very tricky.....

 

Bye for now

hamilton

 

 

[hamilton]

So people (including me) are probably getting tired of the well! But I'm into my third version now and wanted to post a couple of shots to show the current state and comparison with the chubby well I made to compensate for the alignment issue with the lower deck framing noted above.

 

The consensus here seems to be to go with the well as defined in the contract and then fudge the pump shafts. I wonder if this will just look bad....or weird....but then the alternative is to use the chubbier well and risk throwing off alignment of the shafts through the upper deck, which would also look bad....or weird....The lesser evil seems to be the first option, but I'm not sure I'm entirely happy with it....

 

In any case, I'm learning how to quickly throw together a well!! And certainly each successive version has been an aesthetic improvement on the last, which is good to see.....here are the shots - not sure if I'll get any time at the bench this weekend - a stack of marking to get through this weekend plus the usual household duties, so......might have to limit myself to watching others!

hamilton

 

[hamilton]

Just as a follow up - I've almost completed the third (and final!!) version of the well, with very limited time at the bench. When I dry fit this version and laid my lower deck template on top of it, there was the same issue with the carlings, but what I really wasn't doing when I "discovered" the alignment issue earlier was considering the angle of the pump shafts. When looking straight down, the problem of clearance around the carlings is severe, but when examined from the approximate angle of the pump shafts it's not quite as bad and if the carlings are shifted inboard by even a small amount (3 scale inches) the alignment seems more or less reasonable. Working through a batch of student essays at the moment and other pressing work demands, but hopefully I'll find some time this weekend to finish this part of the build off and commence on the next (lower deck framing) as most of my family will be away and work will slacken slightly.....bye for now

hamilton

[JacquesCousteau]

Sounds like you found a solution! Good luck with the grading, that's always been my least favorite part of teaching.

[hamilton]

Thanks @JacquesCousteau! I see you're located (at least partially) in Mexico City - I'm heading there next week and wondering if you have any recommendations for things to see/do other than the obvious musts (Teotihuacan, Zocallo, the Anthropology museum, Kahlo/Rivera type things, etc.)....restaurant recommendations are always welcome!!

hamilton

[JacquesCousteau]

4 hours ago, hamilton said:

Thanks @JacquesCousteau! I see you're located (at least partially) in Mexico City - I'm heading there next week and wondering if you have any recommendations for things to see/do other than the obvious musts (Teotihuacan, Zocallo, the Anthropology museum, Kahlo/Rivera type things, etc.)....restaurant recommendations are always welcome!!

hamilton

Sure! I'll send a message later today so as not to hijack your build log.

[hamilton]

Very much a kind of "in process" update. I've started on the hinges for the well using 1/64" x 1/16" brass rod, rounded at the ends and punched with a sharp awl to simulate (not very effectively) the bolts. I tried drilling through the brass, but this proved to be no easy task - assuming that softening the metal in advance by heating it might make this easier, but.....I used some very thin blackened wire to simulate the hinge pins. The photo below shows the hinges hanging off the wire, which will be trimmed back before installation. The wire is connected with a small drop of CA and I'll use epoxy to fit them onto the shot locker lids.

 

But the main work this morning was notching out the lower deck beams for the carlings. As a first step, I lined up the beams to mark out the centre lines and then marked the position of the notches to ensure that the carlings would run true between the beams - this took a bit of finessing. I adjusted the carlings around the lower mast partners/slots for pump shafts to address the alignment issues noted above - they were moved inboard by 1.5" in each case, narrowing the mast partners slightly but allowing for (I think) better clearance of the pump shafts. There were a couple of notches where I ended up tearing out a little bit of wood outside the area - this only affected one of the beams and only on the starboard side, so I've decided that is the side I will add deck planking to - the tear-outs will be completely hidden and will save remakinf the beam.

 

I was initially a little worried about carving out the notches, but the 1/8" chisel is the perfect size, and I ended up clamping the beams along a strip of 3/64" basswood, which allowed me to cut out the notches at the right depth and gave more control to the work. It was much less tricky (though it was pretty slow going) than I thought it would be - the 3" ledges will be another matter, since I do not have a 1/16" chisel to do the work that the 1/8 chisel did on the carling notches.....At this point, I think my only option is to try using a #11 blade for these much small notches....but we'll cross that bridge when the time comes....

 

I'm thinking that I will make a jig to assemble the deck beams, carlings (carved out for ledges) and lodging knees and then install this as one piece onto the model before fitting the ledges and hanging knees. The jig will consist of a 3/4" piece of MDF as a base a little larger in dimension to the overall deck surface, and with some wood strips added on the bottom to raise it for clamping purposes. I will then fix the deck framing template to the upper surface and fix thin (3/64") basswood strips between the beams to keep them evenly spaced. I'll then clamp the beams to this jig and fit the carlings and lodging knees and glue it all up. Since there is no round up to this deck this should be a workable approach.

 

I'm also a little nervous about the hanging knees - these seem like incredibly finicky parts to make - the joinery along the thick stuff and ceiling planks will be hard to get exact....but again, nothing for it but to give it a try....

 

The coming week is going to be quite a busy one as I have a tonne of work to get through before we head on a brief vacation for my wife's 50th....and it'll be pretty full on when we get back, so I'm not sure how much time I'll have at the bench in the next several weeks - I would like to get the well fully completed and the deck framing jig made, but even that might be a bit too ambitious....we'll see. 

 

Happy modelling and bye for now - enjoy the photos

hamilton

Edited Sunday at 08:05 PM by hamilton

[hamilton]

Last pics of the day - the well with hardware attached - I will re-do the inboard port side hinge as it got a little twisted when I was using the awl to (pretty ineffectually) simulate bolt heads by punching out from the back side.....in any case it's a little rough-looking, but I thionk it'll be fine once the twisty hinge gets corrected....

hamilton

 

 

[hamilton]

Ok - one last post seriously!! I made the jig referenced above for the deck framing and cut/notched out all the lower deck carlings. It was very tempting to install them on the deck beams, but I know I will have to notch them out for the ledges, so I have to be patient!! 

 

I cut a small piece of 3/4" ply and attached some 3/4" x 1/2" scrap wood strips to the bottom as risers. I then glued a 1/64" strip to the bottom edge as an anchor and marked out the position of the deck beams from the template I made earlier. I then clamped the deck beams to the board and cut each carling to length individually. As I went there were a couple of places where the notches in the deck beams had to be adjusted slightly to seat the carlings squarely. But I think there were only 2 or 3 of the 20 that needed this, which is a decent ratio I'd say. 

 

And now, a hiatus from building to focus on work and vacation...might be a few weeks or so before I have enough free time to really get moving again on Echo, but we'll see.....bye for now

hamilton