HMS Lion by Ian_Grant - 1/150 - RADIO - RESTORATION - WW1 Battlecruiser

[Kevin-the-lubber]

24 minutes ago, Keith Black said:

Those of us without 3D printers and the ability to use them may as well be living in the stone age, Glen. But i look at it this way, I can't burn the house down with my flint knives.

I don't think either of you need feel too envious - having seen the work you each do, I'd swap my printers (well, some of them anyway) for your abilities any day. 3D is brilliant, but probably not quite as fulfilling as doing it all by hand.

[Ian_Grant]

To me it's a tool, no more and no less, similar to the laser cutter which cuts accurate openings without me having to use an xacto knife.

 

The teenaged me sliced up some dowel and drilled holes for the guns; this time around the print can include the viewing ports for the gunners which would have been difficult by hand. Besides, I enjoy the challenge of drawing with TinkerCAD's limited number of shape "primitives".

 

 

[Keith Black]

5 hours ago, Ian_Grant said:

To me it's a tool, no more and no less

ian, I agree 100% with you. I don't disparage 3D printers, in fact I use 3D printed pieces parts sourced from suppliers. That's no different than if I was printing them myself. i admire folks like yourself who can master the printing process. 

[Veszett Roka]

I think this dispute is as old as the 3D printing in modeling industry. I agree with Ian too - this is just a tool. It is helping you to get the same, or even better result. Someone building the pieces from Evergreen slices or rods, someone fabricating them from excess pieces of plastic. The only important thing is the final result on the ship.

If we're talking about artistic sculptor talent and patience thats another topic i guess. Personally i find an accurate 3D model as attractive (artistic) as a sculpted one. Just different working hours invested into it.

[Kevin-the-lubber]

I agree, the machines are tools, same as lasers and CNC routers & mills, and so on. But 3D production can easily become the principal method, as is the case with my stuff. I guess it's down to the individual to decide how far they want to go, but my own experience is that it sucks you in. Not that I regret that, I willingly jumped in with both feet and would do the same again.

 

While writing I just wanted to add something - when I first got into 3D I assumed it would be a huge time saver, that I'd be able to knock parts together in a jiffy that would take hours or days by hand. There's a grain of truth in this, you do get far faster as your CAD and printing skills develop, but my experience has been that it often takes considerably longer than making by hand if you're designing the thing from the ground up. 

[Keith Black]

2 hours ago, Veszett Roka said:

I think this dispute

 Veszett, what dispute? No one is disputing Ian's use of 3D printing. As I said, "I don't disparage 3D printers, in fact I use 3D printed pieces parts sourced from suppliers. That's no different than if I was printing them myself. i admire folks like yourself who can master the printing process."

[Veszett Roka]

2 hours ago, Keith Black said:

 Veszett, what dispute? No one is disputing Ian's use of 3D printing.

Not us Keith, but the dispute in general, whether the modeler could use a 3D printer, or he/she must use his/her own skills and tools to model the subject. The PRO-3D folks (including you, Ian and me) says it is just another tool. The CON-3D guys says that 3D printing is just programming and anybody could produce a fine model just behind a monitor whilst he/she could be totally untalented, don't need to understand the ship in general. They thinks 3D printing is not a work.

[Keith Black]

35 minutes ago, Veszett Roka said:

Not us Keith, but the dispute in general,

Ahh.....3D printing is the future of modeling and those that think otherwise have their heads buried in the sand. Just as I'm sure some modelers a hundred years ago thought power tools were the devil's own. 

Edited January 22 by Keith Black

[Ian_Grant]

44 minutes ago, Keith Black said:

Ahh.....3D printing is the future of modeling and those that think otherwise have their heads buried in the sand. Just as I'm sure some modelers a hundred years ago thought power tools were the devil's own. 

Just as my dad's generation of toolmakers thought CNC machines were the devil's own.

[Dr PR]

Having done a bit of 3D modelling myself (USS Oklahoma City CLG-5 and modeling parts for other builds) and scratch making things by hand in wood and metal, I say both techniques are equally good for ship modelling. I put in 14 years of research on the CLG CAD model, and I am starting on my seventh year researching my 1:48 topsail schooner model.

 

However, I have doubts about the suitability of the resins used for 3D printing. I have 3D printed some tiny but very detailed parts for my future 1:96 scale model of the CLG - much better detail than I could do by hand in any material. But how long will these resin parts last? 3D printing is relatively new, especially for the home printers. Will the resin deteriorate with time? Only time will tell.

 

I am reminded of the problems that came up when pot metal parts came into fashion more than a century ago. Some of those metal parts corroded and are just dust today. And a very early (1940s) plastic body for a kitchen mixer began to crumble in only a few years.

 

So if your model is just a throw-away, or something that your heirs will have to dispose of, the 3D printed parts are OK. But I have doubts about anything you want to last beyond your lifetime.

[Ian_Grant]

You

8 hours ago, Dr PR said:

H

 

However, I have doubts about the suitability of the resins used for 3D printing. I have 3D printed some tiny but very detailed parts for my future 1:96 scale model of the CLG - much better detail than I could do by hand in any material. But how long will these resin parts last? 3D printing is relatively new, especially for the home printers. Will the resin deteriorate with time? Only time will tell.

So if your model is just a throw-away, or something that your heirs will have to dispose of, the 3D printed parts are OK. But I have doubts about anything you want to last beyond your lifetime.

Dr PR you're right. This is a worry for me especially in an outdoor model which will be exposed to UV. Are you more worried about resin than PETG filament? PETG plastic bottles take a very long time to break down. From what I've read paint will protect the plastic from UV. I'd like to print in ABS which is very durable as demonstrated by all the relatively ancient plastic model kits still around, but it emits toxic gas when printed and we have a parrot in the house; they are sensitive to air pollution as are we all.

 

I'd like to think my ships will be around long after I'm gone, but my kids will have the final say.

 

My daughter says she will keep my Heller Victory in my memory...........🥲

[Kevin-the-lubber]

Most of the stuff I've printed in filament has been for outdoors and unpainted: all of it is still doing fine 4 or 5 years on, having had constant exposure to sun, wind, rain, snow, bird poo, squirrel warfare etc. Originally I used PLA, tried ABS as I wanted the flexibility, but couldn't get it to stick so switched to PETG which is fine for just about everything I make. I am starting to see PLA products being sold in shops now and recently read an article on a factory that runs something like 2000 FDM's churning out kids toys, so personally I don't have any real concerns about the longevity of filament prints. In fact I'd be happy to hear that it does start to crumble after 20 or 30 years as my one reservation about 3D is that I'm adding to the plastics mountain. Not by very much, but it all adds up, doesn't it.

 

Resin is a different kettle of fish. While here again I've got some extremely finely detailed prints that have sat unpainted on my windowsill for 3 or 4 years without any apparent decay, for end product I would always paint them as this acts as a UV barrier (or so I read). That even extends to tiny blocks, where a holy grail seems to be to make them so they look good enough without paint (perfectly do-able, but a different discussion). I'll still paint. I'm not sure anyone knows, or if they do, is willing to say, how long resin objects will remain as good as new. My view is that anything I print in resin is going to end up on a model of some sort, which if it's worth keeping, will probably be kept in a case, out of the sun, and get very, very little post-assembly exposure to UV. While this is not at all scientific, I'd be surprised if it didn't last decades. It would be nice to leave a legacy, but nicer still if that had a relatively short lifespan, for the same reasons as above.

 

[Ian_Grant]

Making slow progress. The canal has frozen over well for the first time in three years so it's been wonderful skating - about 35km today! So that's been a distraction along with x-country skiing.

 

Learning about the 3D printer "Bambu Studio". See again the winch I printed above; I tried clicking on "layer height" but it wouldn't let me change from 0.2mm. Subsequently I discovered that if you click on "Process" you can select from among processes with finer layers and other variables. Bambu sets all the defaults for whichever Process you select so you don't need to fiddle with variables you don't understand. If you are an advanced user, you can change things around to your heart's content. Anyway, I selected a process with 0.08mm layers. Here are three revisions of the winch, that I printed.

 

First was one I showed above, 0.2mm layers. Second is a design modification again in 0.2mm layers. Third is same design in 0.08mm layers. You can see how much cleaner the concave parts of the windlass are.

Next I started working on the forward superstructure. The secondary battery is housed in casemates below the shelter deck. I thought of printing the recesses and gun cylinders in one piece but they're all unique so I went with the fiddly process shown in the next photos.

 

The hole is for the A/B turret servo's body projecting into the shelter deck space.

Additional holes in the main deck below the shelter deck are to allow air flow into the hull for the smoke unit, and allow sound to get out of the hull if/when I have some Arduino-controlled audio clips and a speaker.

Here we see the shelter deck with printed casemates for the upper secondary guns, the flag deck above, and the conning tower (much improved with 0.08mm layers) with captain's walk on each side. Flag deck is not glued in now; some touching up and details still required. I also have the lower foremast inserted without glue as yet.

 

It would be quite quick to build up the rest, it's just a few shaped blocks of wood and little decks between. The snags are railings and painting. I think I need to paint each level and do the railings before moving to the next deck up. No idea yet how to add stanchions to 1/32" thick decks, or for that matter do bent railings with kapok anti-splinter mats.

I also tried printing the many boiler room ventilation hatches around the main stack. With 0.08mm layers they turned out pretty well. I will be printing the weather deck hatches and skylights, doors, and also the kedge anchors since after market anchors are pricey with shipping. Wondering about printing all the ship's boats too, if I can find a 3D hull to scale to different lengths and beams. Looks pretty grim by camera but naked eye can't really see the surface marks.

 

Oh, and my smoke unit arrived. Haven't tried it out yet.

 

Next steps: Now that I have all the parts I'm thinking of getting the Q and Y turret rotating mechanisms installed; it will be cool to see all four turrets moving in unison. Then I really really need to do a ballast test, add ballast and finally glue on the fore and after decks. But I don't want to spend money on lumber to make a low tank for water. Need to look through my off-cuts.

 

Thanks for following!

Edited February 4 by Ian_Grant

[ddp]

would it fit in your bathtub if you have 1?

[Ian_Grant]

9 hours ago, ddp said:

would it fit in your bathtub if you have 1?

No, it would be about 3" too long even on a diagonal with the tub filled to the brim (overflow blocked temporarily)|.

[ddp]

any friends who are cattle/horse farmers as they would have those big galvanized steel tubs for watering those animals?

Edited February 4 by ddp

[Ian_Grant]

15 minutes ago, ddp said:

any friends who are cattle/horse farmers as they would have those big galvanized steel tubs for watering those animals?

Not a one .....

[Kevin-the-lubber]

17 hours ago, Ian_Grant said:

Looks pretty grim by camera but naked eye can't really see the surface marks.

Is your printer enclosed? If so, it might be worth giving ABS a go, as I believe you can smooth the surface with a bit of acetone. I haven’t tried this myself, keep meaning to make an enclosure and try ABS again, previously I couldn’t get it to stay on the plate.

[Ian_Grant]

1 hour ago, Kevin-the-lubber said:

Is your printer enclosed? If so, it might be worth giving ABS a go, as I believe you can smooth the surface with a bit of acetone. I haven’t tried this myself, keep meaning to make an enclosure and try ABS again, previously I couldn’t get it to stay on the plate.

Hi Kevin,

 

No, it's not enclosed, and I don't want to get into toxic ABS with a parrot in the house. If it died from fumes my vet wife would throw me out. And she could do the autopsy to find the cause of death (of the bird) too! 😏

 

I think when painted the prints will look fine.

[Ian_Grant]

Well after procrastinating for weeks I finally did the ballast test.

 

I built the test tank using the wood side rails from my wife's grandmother's old bed (Yes, I know, I know!!) with some plywood ends clamped into place between them, lined with some heavy sheet plastic I had lying around.

Even with the big gel cell, I need considerable weight at bow and stern to get her to waterline. I think I will play around more with ballast placement; with such weight at bow and stern she might be a little "dead" in rippling water.

|And one shot with the old superstructures in place, just for fun. Looks like she's going through a lock.

[yvesvidal]

If you know the weight of the real ship, just divide it by the cube of the scale (3375000 in your case). That will give you what the model should weight to be in its flotation lines.

The result  can be alarming.....for your lower back!!!

 

Yves

Edited February 4 by yvesvidal

[Kevin-the-lubber]

11 hours ago, Ian_Grant said:

I don't want to get into toxic ABS with a parrot in the house.

Good point. It reminds me that I need to shift my FDM printer into the garage alongside the resin printers, as I plan on doing a lot more FDM this year and I doubt the fumes from even PLA or PETG are totally harmless.

[KeithAug]

On 1/21/2025 at 11:38 PM, Keith Black said:

Those of us without 3D printers and the ability to use them may as well be living in the stone age,

Don't worry Keith we may be heading back there. 

[KeithAug]

I am very anti 3d printing, basically because I'm too lazy to learn how to use it. If I can get over this hurdle I am going to become its number 1 advocate.🙂

[Ian_Grant]

Lead shot ballast added according to the results of the flotation tank test (why is it "float" but "flotation"?). Compartments with lead were "capped" internally to stop lead from shifting around. Foredeck added. Before adding aft deck I needed to get "Y" turret rotation sorted. Here's a quick video of the four turrets rotating together. Now I can add the aft deck and get going on the aft superstructure.

 

I am now working on printed additions for the turrets, which fix the turret fronts which dipped a little low, and add the three sighting hoods. There's also a hatch or something shown on the drawings at the top rear of all turrets except "A". Not sure what they are as they seem too low to be rangefinders, and are asymmetrical from side to side. (??)

 

The 3D rendering has imaginative apparent rangefinders here but this is not in the photos of Lion in my book, even in 1918 after wartime modifications.

 

Also need to decide whether gun barrel holes need to be plugged and re-drilled slightly higher.

 

 

 

 

Edited February 16 by Ian_Grant

[ddp]

redo the float test after you got it all built & rc stuff installed to make final ballast adjustments.

[Ian_Grant]

On 2/16/2025 at 11:00 AM, ddp said:

redo the float test after you got it all built & rc stuff installed to make final ballast adjustments.

That's the plan, but I don't think the total mass of superstructures and RC is a significant enough fraction of the hull displacement to make much difference. I left it needing two or three of the old metal rectangle pieces as adjustable ballast so I do have some leeway. If I ever change to brushless motors and NiMH pack, there will be a LOT of extra ballast needed. Hoping the 50-year-old brushed motors are ok. 🫰

Edited Monday at 04:20 PM by Ian_Grant

[Ian_Grant]

Working on turret enhancements that teenaged Ian skipped. I printed two quarter-circle tapered parts to bring up the top of the front edge and also add the sighting hoods. Then I printed some little wee ladders, and some what would you call them, weather-protective canvas bellows?, for where the guns emerge from the turret.

 

Here's an original turret. Notes (1) the hole in top is from me re-drilling to get a more accurate axis location, (2) teenaged Ian wrapped some large-dia solder around each barrel, since removed, and slapped on some grey paint.

Here is "Y" turret with enhancements; further fettling and filling required.

By the way, I seek opinions on the grey that teenaged Ian used. The drawings have a note saying she was "medium blue-grey" but this looks too blue to me now. I bought a lighter grey which looks ok in the shop, but is very pale in daylight. Suggestions?

 

[Glen McGuire]

I believe that the medium blue-gray would fade to a more pale gray as the ships aged.  So if you want a brand new look, I'd go more with the medium blue-gray.  But if you want a more aged or weathered look, I'd go pale gray.  My 2 cents.