methods for serving a thin rope

[georgeband]

On my 1/64 model of a small schooner, HMS Whiting, the shrouds and other standing rigging are mostly 0.6mm diameter. A few are thinner, down to 0.4mm diameter. References such as Steel say that some of these ropes should be served (after worming and parcelling) on part or all of their length. The question for me is how to achieve this?

 

A traditional serving machine, bought or DIY, seems oversized to me and though, with care, it could probably succeed in wrapping a fine line around the rope I doubt if I could see any of the strands. The normal viewing distance suggests that the served rope would just look smooth. Has anyone tried alternative methods to get the same effect? Painting the rope comes to mind, or coating it with PVA or some other sticky stuff that dries smooth. I could also use a smooth thread, for example a linen which does not show the lay of the strands, in places where the whole rope is served. 

 

All suggestions are welcome!

 

George

[Toolmaker]

Hi George, I have recently done what you are asking about. I served various size ropes from 1.1mm down to 0.45mm.

I served the 0.45mm using 0.05mm diameter fly tying thread. This thread is 1/9 the diameter of the served line and I thought that was acceptable.

 

With a little practice It was reasonably easy using the Syren serving machine. For me the issue was seeing clearly what I was doing. For the fine threads I used a magnifier to watch the thread.

 

This picture shows some practice, but the serving thread was a bit too fine, however it shows the idea.

I am a beginner compared to many so open to criticism if I am doing wrong. I hope something here is useful.

Thanks

Paul

[georgeband]

Paul,

 

I admire your skill in working with such fine threads which clearly proves that it can be done. The question that I return to is more philosophical: how much should we follow old, full-size practice for a model? Is there a simpler way to create the same effect? My models are plank on bulkhead so I have clearly abandoned the idea of building all the frames which are not visible on my finished models. Respect to those who build frames, even if they are not in oak! We all draw our own line in the sand to show what we want to do 'properly' and I am exploring how I want to make a rope look as if it has been served. 

 

I will experiment with paints at some point to see if I can get a smooth finish. 

 

George

[wefalck]

Have a look at @archjofo's building log on his CREOLE. I think he serves 'ropes' down to 0.3 mm diameter on a shop-made serving machine. I agree, that most commercial serving machines seem to be too 'coarse' for such delicate jobs.

 

On the other hand, @dafi recently used PVA to simulate (partially) served rope on his 1/100 scale VICTORY.

 

A totally different route I have been using for served strops is silk-spun copper wire as used in high-frequency coils of old radios etc. For many years it was difficult to find, but as old-fashioned electronics and restauration of radios has become fasionable, such wires re-appear on the market again. I used inherited wires or stuff I picked up on flea-markets and consider using it for my next miniature project.

[Thukydides]

I did a lot of very fine serving for my Alert build including serving eyes for 0.25mm rope. I used the syren serving machine for all of this. See below for a picture of a served 0.35mm rope used for the anchor buoy. Personally I am of the opinion that as much as possible you should try to replicate the full sized practice. I do notice the difference (not just in zoomed photos). That being said everything is a tradeoff between how much time you are willing to put in and what you are capable (e.g. how good is your eyesight).

I detail some of the process in my log, but her are some things I learned:

1. Scale matters - You need to make sure you are serving with an appropriate sized thread. For the above example I was using 10/0 fly tying thread for the serving.
2. Magnification is essential - Without good lighting and some form of magnification (I use 3.5x glasses), it is impossible to be consistent and get a good result. By the time you notice there is a problem you are long past the point at which it occurred.
3. Patience - For small examples such as the above I would say I made twice as many attempts as I got acceptable results. Mistakes happen, measurements on length are 1mm off and at this scale that stuff can make a noticeable difference. Get comfortable with doing things over until they are done right.
4. Twist - Some thread (fly tying thread in particular) needs to have its twist tightened or it lies too flat. As I serve it onto the rope I twist it in the direction of the original twist. This is hard to describe, but when you do it right you can see the individual loops of the serving as opposed to a smooth layer of fibers. This obviously untwists the thread below where I am twisting so when done I just get rid of the fly tying thread I have untwisted. Thread is cheap so this is not really a problem. Knowing how much twist to add just requires practice.
5. Tension - There is no way to show this, but an important part of serving properly is maintaining the correct tension and spacing (no gaps). This is much easier to do with larger ropes and much harder in miniature. This just requires practice.
6. Limit glue use - I found glue at small scales is really noticeable. So as much as possible I would use tricks where I pulled the ends under the serving. This is a bit hard to describe, but essentially I was using the common whipping at both ends of the serve. Problems with securing the two ends of the serve were the most common reasons for having to redo things.

 

EDIT: added a note on glue which I forgot to mention

Edited November 14 by Thukydides

[druxey]

Excellent advice for those with sufficient patience!

[georgeband]

Thank you to all for your suggestions. I followed the link from Wefalck to Dafi's HMS Victory and was overwhelmed by the quality of his work. Layers of PVA followed by paint seems to be one answer which suits my desire to avoid building and learning to use a serving machine. My speed of building is very slow already and I do not want to add more delays. 

 

George

 

[georgeband]

Inspired by Dafi's success, I have simulated serving ropes with paint. First I tried Humbrol 'service brown' acrylic which is a reasonable colour for what I want but it is definitely gloss. In fact it is too glossy to use as a top coat though it is good at filling the contlines. (The contemporary spelling of contlines is not acceptable now, but have a look in Steel or the naval dictionaries if you want to see it.) 

 

I found some matt burnt umber acrylic ('Pebeo origin') in a local Hobbycraft shop and tried that. The colour is good and it is matt and is now my preferred approach for serving these fine lines. The method works well on linen threads but Gutermann polyester threads become very rough and are not useable. 

 

The threads in the photo below are, from top to bottom, 

1. Ropes of Scale 0.6mm, dark brown. The left end is bare, then there is a stretch with a single coat up to the middle, then two coats. It needs another coat to smooth out the lay. 
2. 'Hemline' linen thread, 0.7mm, dark grey. I bought this from a local sewing shop. 
3. Black '2 ounce' linen thread, 0.6mm. This was donated by my wife and is probably a family heirloom.
4. Gutermann linen thread, 0.4mm, 7202 black. This carries the paint well. 
5. Gutermann linen thread, 0.35mm, 4010 brown. I expected it to be the same diameter as the black thread but there must be some batch differences. 
6. Gutermann 'top stitch' thread, 0.4mm, 696 brown. The thread went rough and lumpy with the paint. Not useable when painted. 
7. Gutermann 'extra strong' thread, 0.35mm, 696 brown. This also went rough and is not useable. 

For ropes that have both served and un-served sections I will use the Ropes of Scales threads and paint on the serving where needed, for example on the shrouds where they go over the mast heads. I am tempted to apply a coat or two of the gloss Humbrol paint first then finish with the matt. Ropes which were served on their whole lengths will be linen threads with the paint. 

 

I have not measured the diameters of the painted ropes yet. That's a job for another day. 

 

George

[wefalck]

Thanks for those tests!

 

I would be inclined to believe that the polyester threads don't soak up the paint, it tries too fast and you push the semi-dry paint around with the brush. It's more work, but applying several thinner layers of more dilute paint may solve the problem.

 

Today even museums seem to prefer polyester thread by Gütermann inter alia for their restoration work. So developing a method for such threads would be worthwhile. I am far away from this in my new project, but will probably go down that route.

Edited November 22 by wefalck

[georgeband]

Wefalck, 

 

Thank you for your kind comments and suggestions. I have tried painting the threads again in a more controlled way and found some interesting results. 

 

Gutermann polyester threads. These repeatedly show roughness after painting with acrylic and I can only think that this is from loose fibre ends which catch the paint and then stick out. I even tried dirty water as a first coat and that did not fix it. The Ropes of Scale ropes that I have tried use the same Gutermann thread but take the paint well so there is something curious here. 

 

Linen threads. These work well with paint though there is a directional effect: brushing in one direction smooths down any loose fibres and sticks them with the paint, brushing in the other direction lifts loose fibres and creates a bump. The diameters of any linen threads that I have tried are not increased significantly by painting and the largest increase in diameter that I have measured is 0.02mm. Both of the Gutermann linen threads I have now measure at 0.40mm diameter before painting and 0.42mm after painting. 

 

Gutermann cotton thread takes the paint better than the equivalent polyester thread. I was not expecting this, but both are too rough to use. 

 

One useful side effect is that the painted thread holds it shape quite well if it is bent or stretched taut. Wrapping 0.4mm painted linen thread around a 2.5mm deadeye and then seizing the ends together with fly-tying thread was quicker than I expected. 

 

George

[dafi]

After many trials with real serving and other methotds even using wire I came for my Vic 1/100 to imitating the serving with white glue.

 

Three layers of white glue, smoothed with spit and fingers, and then applying black paint. In my case the best result for the real thin ropes and also good in the time/effect ratio 🙂

 

XXXDAn

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[wefalck]

Perhaps it is a question of what Gütermann thread to use. I think the thread of choice (I believe Chuck used it originally for his ropes) is Gütermann Mara 120. Polyester normally has very long, basically endless, fibres and is smooth. So I am surprised that fibres should stick out.

 

I actually never used Gütermann Mara myself, but rather rope made from fly-tying thread.

[georgeband]

The Gutermann threads that I have been using are from a local sewing shop and their sizes (my measurements) and labels are

• 0.4mm Top stitch (polyester, three strands, quite loose winding)
• 0.3 - 0.35mm Extra strong (polyester, two strands)
• 0.2mm Sew-all (polyester, two strands)
• 0.4mm linen

I don't know how these names relate to Gutermann Mara and they might have different specifications or it might be down to marketing in different regions. 

 

We have had a burst of sunshine here and I took some backlit photos of the threads above. This method is the best that I have found for revealing hairy threads and the results were not what I had hoped for, but do explain why painting some threads gave a rough finish. The linen thread is on the right. 

It could be that Dafi's white glue and spit is a magic formula that holds down the fibres. Waxing would also hold down the fibres but it would, I expect, prevent a water based paint from sticking. The smallest seized size I need is 0.4mm so I shall continue with the linen threads. 

 

George

 

 

[wefalck]

Dafi (an myself) are not actually using the threads, but we make 'rope' from the threads. In this process you would tighten up the threads, which reduces the fluff a bit. 

 

Gütermann has a multitude of thread types in their production programme. My understanding is that Mara is relatively tightly wound and has comparatively little fluff. However, it may not be so readily available through retail shops. I have tried to buy it from physical haberdashery etc. shops in Germany, Switzerland and France, but couldn't find it. These shops have become very poor actually. You can buy it from on-line shops.

 

[georgeband]

The internet tells me that Gutermann Sew All thread, readily available in shops, is one variant of Gutermann Mara. Mara is from the Industrial division and Sew All is retail. There is a long reply from the Gutermann sales manager in the USA, in 2015, on this link.  https://sewing.patternreview.com/SewingDiscussions/topic/92551

To save you the effort of reading it all here are two key excerpts. 

 

Most fabric stores carry Gutermann Sew All which is a Mara thread and the most common size is Tex 30. 

Mara from the Industrial division is the same thread construction, MicroCore Polyester, but the Industrial segment has Tex 19, 25, 30, 40, 60, 100, 200 265 and 400. 

 

This link is for an on-line store where they describe the many variants of Gutermann thread. https://www.minionsofcraft.co.uk/blog/essential-guide-to-gutermann-threads.

The thicknesses are shown as a number but I don't have a conversion scale that converts the number into a diameter. The extra fine polyester thread is No. 150 and the extra strong thread is No. 40. 

 

George

[wefalck]

The 'diameter' of a thread or rope is difficult to define and measure, as it changes its shape and diameter under strain. That's why other measures were deviced, such as as how much is the weight (in grams) of 1,000 meters of thread, which is the defintion of 'tex'.

 

Year ago I made myself a conversion formula for MS Excel based on the average density of polyester and the assumption that the thread forms a perfect cylinder, viz Ø [mm] = =SQRT(tex/(1,38*1000*100*PI()))*10*2.

 

This formula then gives these rough diameters for Gütermann Mara:

Edited November 28 by wefalck

[georgeband]

Thank you, Wefalck. I was taught as a physicist that a perfect sphere is a good first approximation to most things, and in this case a cylinder is even better. 

I use a 'gammoning' method to measure diameters and wrap 10 turns of thread around a dowel, push them together and then measure the width of the ten. I expect others have their own variants on this method which has more control than crushing a single thread between caliper jaws. The Sew All thread (No. 100) I have measured is 0.2mm diameter by this method and the Extra Strong thread (No. 40) is 0.3mm or 0.35mm depending on the sample. These diameters do not scale linearly with those from your formula so it is not a matter of adjusting the effective density. The larger Gutermann numbers are for finer threads and I suspect that the Gutermann numbers given on the minionsofcraft website might be the length of thread needed to get to a defined weight. Linen threads have their own actual density and packing (I don't see gaps between strands) and so will have a variant of the formula. 

 

My thoughts now are to continue with a pragmatic approach and measure and use the threads that I have. I might return to Excel later, after I have finished the belaying plans...  

 

George

 

[wefalck]

It seems that number on the spools is not tex, but Tkt (= ticket number) or Nm. Nm is the kind of the inverse of tex. Here is a useful converter for the different measures: https://texelle.com/en/count-converter/. Effectively the formula for converting Nm into tex is: tex = 1000 / Nm. However, normally the Nm is followed by an indication of the number of ply, how many individual threads there are in a sewing yarn, e.g. Nm 100/2 means that there are two threads of Nm 100 in the yarn, meaning that the weight per lengths and the thickness doubles.

 

I have rearranged the above table (for one-ply threads):

As Gütermann Sew-All is probably two-ply, e.g. Nm 100/2 has a diameter of roughly 2 x 0.1 mm = 0.2 mm, which now tallies with your measurements.

 

I use the same method as you, putting say 20 windings of my shop-made rope around the shaft of a drill, measuring the total length of the windings with a vernier caliper and dividing the length by 20 to give the diameter.

 

 

 

 

[bartley]

Yes indeed wefalck,

 

Thread sizes are something of a minefield.  I find the the number you get on the 'gammoning' method very much depends on how tightly you wind the thread.  As you say, thread changes shape under tension, and it may not ever be cylindrical.  An dthen there is Fly tying thread,   which is measured in 'Aught' producing number like 8/0 etc.

 

I have the following conversions for Unithread but it will be different fo other manufactures such as Veevus;

 

3/0        266 Denier

6/0        130 Denier

8/0         71 Denier

14/0       32 Denier

 

A few years ago I published he the result that probably really matters  What is the diameter of the resulting served thread?  Here is what I found:

 

I used three different threads:

 

 Veevus 16/0 fly tying thread  diameter -.   04 mm

 Veevus 8/0 fly tying thread  diameter -.     06 mm

 Guterman  Ne50 cotton thread diameter 0.114 mm

 

I used Chucks rope and the results were:

 

0.88 mm rope served withwith16.0 fly tying thread        diameter         0.936

0.88 mm rope served with Ne 50  Guterman Cotton         diameter        1.11

1.12 mm  rope served withwith16.0 fly tyiing thread       diameter         1.36

1.12 mm mm rope served with Ne 50  Guterman Cotton diameter        1.47

1.37 mm  rope served with Ne 50  Guterman Cotton        diameter        1.60

(with the lay)

1.37 mm  rope served with Ne 50 Guterman Cotton        diameter        1.71

            (against the lay)

 

This Guterman Cotton is yet another sizing issue :

It is described as C Ne 50 and stands for:

'English Cotton Count (Ne C) Number of 840 Yard Hanks in 1 pound of thread.'

 

Regards,

 

John

Edited November 30 by bartley