Billy 1938 by Keith Black - 1:120 Scale - Homemade Sternwheeler

[Keith Black]

8 hours ago, tmj said:

I'm going out on a limb again. Could Billy have possibly had 'two' doors for the pilot house, one forward and one aft? I see what must be a handrail, and also some curious carpentry in the aft end of the pilot house. Could that irregular open panel on the port side be a door? Maybe there was a stair coming up from 'inside', not on the outside. One entered the pilot house from the rear end and came out on the upper deck from the forward door.

 Tom, a door on the pilothouse fore wall leaves no place to put the ship's wheel. An inside stairway would mean it would have been open to the sky and elements and there wouldn't have been room in the pilothouse to have a stairway leading directly into the PH. 

 

 As I noted in post #5, item 1, being a hand rail. The 'green' knee rail maybe a leftover piece of a salvaged porch rial leaned up against the PH? I'm not convinced it would have played a part in a stairway.  I think the red handrail may sit along the starboard side roof edge?

 

 Creating the space necessary for a stairway at Billy's bow is a challenge that's way I favored a ladder until the question of how did Engel get heavy items up onto the boiler deck?  

 

 There had to have been a stairway and a door, the how of it is the puzzle.

 

7 hours ago, tmj said:

Something 'else' just caught my eye on this curious boat. What could 'this' be? The angle of its projection suggests that it's not just a 'wooden' feature nor a photographic anomaly, but rather something like a bent 'pipe' running forward out of the pilot house. Could this have anything to do with the indoor 'bar'? LOL

 When John enlarged the image I noticed that. If real, it appears to be a garden spigot with unknown reason for being.  I know, I know, we are talking Billy here and reason seems at times sketchy. Due to the small size and not knowing the why of it I'm ignoring it and not including it in the build. 

 

8 hours ago, Knocklouder said:

Looks  like a stairwell in front of the pilot house, I see what looks to be a hand rail

 Bob, if that's a stairway in front of the pilothouse it's completely plugged with junk and useless. Plus a center located stairway cuts into the center of the main deck structure below the PH. A stairway and door fitted into the removed corner on the bow/starboard side is making the most sense to me at this point. 

 

 

 Tom and Bob, thank you for your thoughts and input.  

[Cathead]

I have to admit, I also saw that railing and thought "center-mounted stairway forward of the pilot house". Why do you say it's "plugged with junk"? I don't see anything directly blocking that, only structures off to either side. And what do you mean by "below the PH"? What I, and I think others, are seeing is a staircase FORWARD of the pilot house, probably descending in a forward direction though it could be either. I don't see why its central location is a big deal, it wouldn't violate structural integrity any more than a regular home staircase does, especially in this vessel's cockamamie design. He could easily have that framed solidly. If anything, it mimics the forward central staircase that many steamboats had, ascending just in front of the main chimneys, and I could see him copying that design.

 

I can't argue against your starboard idea, but I'd love to understand your thought process on rejecting the central idea.

[Knocklouder]

Is it possible that the stairs  are on the starboard side not in the center? 

Bob M      

[Keith Black]

3 hours ago, Cathead said:

I have to admit, I also saw that railing and thought "center-mounted stairway forward of the pilot house". Why do you say it's "plugged with junk"? I don't see anything directly blocking that, only structures off to either side. And what do you mean by "below the PH"? What I, and I think others, are seeing is a staircase FORWARD of the pilot house, probably descending in a forward direction though it could be either. I don't see why its central location is a big deal, it wouldn't violate structural integrity any more than a regular home staircase does, especially in this vessel's cockamamie design. He could easily have that framed solidly. If anything, it mimics the forward central staircase that many steamboats had, ascending just in front of the main chimneys, and I could see him copying that design.

 

I can't argue against your starboard idea, but I'd love to understand your thought process on rejecting the central idea.

 Eric, I hope the below drawings answer your questions. 

 

2 hours ago, Knocklouder said:

Is it possible that the stairs  are on the starboard side not in the center?

 I believe so, Bob.

 

 Junk at the center of the pilothouse. I'll get to the stack below. 

 

 Eric and Tom, is this the center stairway configuration you had in mind? 

 

 If so it doesn't make sense to me because it cuts out so much of the deck structure below the pilothouse plus construction is much more complicated. 

 

 Where I have the door marked doesn't work because you can't get around the stairs, duh. We have a similar door configuration in our house where access to the main stairway from the original kitchen has a door (the door is still there but is blocked on the other side of the door) with a step up to the main stairway. if it was a center stairway the door configuration could have been on either side at the bottom of th stairs.  

 

 This is my thinking except the foot of the stairs are on the starboard side running up toward the center and the main deck structure door is on the 4 foot wall underneath the stairs. 

 

 This allows more usable space in the main deck forward structure and construction is much easier. 

 

Regarding note 2 in the first photo, the reason the starboard stack leans is because the stairs being where they are don't allow the structural integrity as that for the port side stack. 

 

 The only reason any of this matters is because it influences hull construction and deck planking layout. I can model it either way, I just need to know which way. 

Edited 20 hours ago by Keith Black

[Cathead]

Keith, that's roughly what I had in mind, but I'm a little confused by your labels. If that staircase ascends sternward (from main deck forward to boiler deck aft, just in front of the pilothouse), what does "door below" mean? There'd be no door up on the boiler deck, where that label is, and any door down on the main deck would be at the forward end, opposite from your label.

 

I also don't understand what you mean by "cuts out so much of the deck structure below the pilothouse" because the whole thing is well forward of the pilothouse, which would be plenty well supported on uncut beams aft of the staircase. Again, lots of steamboats had staircases rising up into the boiler deck at various places without any structural integrity problems.

 

As for the junk, it looks to me like it's on either side of the proposed stairwell opening. That railing certainly runs in front of the right-hand "junk", as I can see it on crossing that item on the blown-up image posted earlier. That also implies that that railing runs fore-aft, 90º off what it would be if it was protecting a right-descending staircase as in your other proposal. The other stuff looks like it could be piled in the narrow space between the port side of the stairwell opening and whatever those little sheds are.

 

As for the stacks, my eye says they both lean outward at about the same angle. In an earlier discussion, I believe we decided that they were entirely decorative, explaining why they weren't straight. Also, based on the trend of the left-hand stack, it appears it comes down to the boiler deck at least 6-8 feet after of the forward end of that deck, since you can see 3-4 feet of "shack" forward of the left stack, then another 3-4 feet of deck forward of that shack's wall. So the right-hand stack would be placed well aft of your proposed starboard-descending staircase, meaning that both stacks have equal support (or lack therefore) because they don't interact with either staircase, which also fits why (to me) they both lean outward at similar angles.

 

I don't mean to be telling you what to do, but this is what I see. Here's a drawing to illustrate how my mind reconstructs that image, right or wrong. 

 

[Keith Black]

11 minutes ago, Cathead said:

If that staircase ascends sternward (from main deck forward to boiler deck aft, just in front of the pilothouse), what does "door below" mean?

 I edited this after a respite with my pipe. You may have read pre edit.  

 

 "Where I have the door marked doesn't work because you can't get around the stairs, duh. We have a similar door configuration in our house where access to the main stairway from the original kitchen has a door (the door is still there but is blocked on the other side of the door) with a step up to the main stairway. if it was a center stairway the door configuration could have been on either side at the bottom of the stairs."

14 minutes ago, Cathead said:

I also don't understand what you mean by "cuts out so much of the deck structure below the pilothouse" because the whole thing is well forward of the pilothouse, which would be plenty well supported on uncut beams aft of the staircase. Again, lots of steamboats had staircases rising up into the boiler deck at various places without any structural integrity problems.

 

 I'm not concerned about the pilothouse's structurally integrity, what I'm trying to say (badly I suppose) is the room below the boiler deck, on the main deck, would have 40 square feet removed from the center leaving little 6 x 10 foot sections on either side of the stairs. It's waste of space.

 

20 minutes ago, Cathead said:

As for the junk, it looks to me like it's on either side of the proposed stairwell opening.

 To my eye it looks like it's in the center of the pilot house. *see Keith shrug

 

25 minutes ago, Cathead said:

As for the stacks, my eye says they both lean outward at about the same angle. In an earlier discussion, I believe we decided that they were entirely decorative, explaining why they weren't straight. Also, based on the trend of the left-hand stack, it appears it comes down to the boiler deck at least 6-8 feet after of the forward end of that deck, since you can see 3-4 feet of "shack" forward of the left stack, then another 3-4 feet of deck forward of that shack's wall. So the right-hand stack would be placed well aft of your proposed starboard-descending staircase, meaning that both stacks have equal support (or lack therefore) because they don't interact with either staircase, which also fits why (to me) they both lean outward at similar angles.

 The port side stack is much more straight than the starboard side, IMHO. I pointed out early on that they were decorative but that maybe the port side stack was functional for a wood stove. There is only 2 to 3 feet of space between the forward edge of the box that surrounds the stack and the forward boiler deck edge. If my thinking where correct the stairway opening on the starboard side would cut into the amount of surrounding box structure/ support for the starboard stack.    

 

37 minutes ago, Cathead said:

I don't mean to be telling you what to do, but this is what I see. Here's a drawing to illustrate how my mind reconstructs that image, right or wrong. 

 Eric, my friend, I don't feel you're telling me what to do. You're sharing you thoughts on how you see things which is EXACTLY what I want you to do. Thank you for taking the time to make the drawing and for sharing your thoughts. 

[tmj]

It's very interesting how different eyes and different minds can see totally different things while viewing the same subject! 🙂

Sensible or not, this is what 'I' see. My railings abruptly end in space because the view of the rest of those railings is not visible. Only 'Billy' knows what's going on 'behind the scenes'. 

I also see the pilot house being off-centered. Doesn't mean it was. That's just how it appears to 'me' in the photo.

 

[KeithAug]

33 minutes ago, tmj said:

I also see the pilot house being off-centered. Doesn't mean it was.

Keith - I think it's just the viewing angle and the curvature of the deck. My vote is for it being on centre ( not that anyone will ever know for sure ).

[tmj]

9 minutes ago, KeithAug said:

Keith - I think it's just the viewing angle and the curvature of the deck. My vote is for it being on centre ( not that anyone will ever know for sure ).

Quite true Mr. Aug! We can't truly see the deck on both sides. What I'm looking at is the location of the pilot house between the 'stacks'. The PH could very well be centered and what I'm seeing in my mind's eye is a simple illusion, however. To 'me' it looks like the PH is closer to the stack in the background than it is to the one in the foreground. Every time I study this photo I see something different. "Where's Columbo when you really need him?" 🤔

[Keith Black]

46 minutes ago, tmj said:

It's very interesting how different eyes and different minds can see totally different things while viewing the same subject! 🙂

Sensible or not, this is what 'I' see. My railings abruptly end in space because the view of the rest of those railings is not visible. Only 'Billy' knows what's going on 'behind the scenes'. 

I also see the pilot house being off-centered. Doesn't mean it was. That's just how it appears to 'me' in the photo.

 I agree, Tom. This is why it's so dang hard for police to make sense of the various eyewitness accounts at the scene of a crime or so I'm told by NCIS. 

 

 Thank you for the rendering, but where do the stairs land? 

 

15 minutes ago, KeithAug said:

Keith - I think it's just the viewing angle and the curvature of the deck. My vote is for it being on centre ( not that anyone will ever know for sure ).

 I also think the pilothouse is centered, Keith. That's my story and I'm sticking with it. 

 

 

 Speaking of sticking with it, after considerable conversations with myself I'm going with the center stairway. The one item item I can not argue away is the railing that runs parallel with the hull. I don't know why there are not two (one on each side) but I can't place that railing anywhere else other than for a center stairway. I'll just have accept the 6 x 10 foot sections on each side of the stairway as one of the many Engel idiosyncrasies.

 

 Thank you, Eric, Tom, and Bob for staying the course, sharing your thoughts, setting me straight, and forgiving (I hope) my hardheadedness. 

[tmj]

4 minutes ago, Keith Black said:

Thank you for the rendering, but where do the stairs land?

I don't have a clue where they might begin, 'or' end! I don't care to guess, either! I only rendered what I personally see in the original photo... then rotated that 3D view a bit for better observation, consideration and thought. What If the engine was chain driven to the paddle wheels? Could the engine have been off centered to keep the chain(s) centered on the paddle shaft (or whatever it's called), and in such the PH was off set, to the opposite side of the boat, as a counterweight? I'm sure you know exactly where I'm pulling this curious train of thought from, LOL. Maybe I'm just trying to make ol' Billy a bit 'quirkier' than she really was! 

[Keith Black]

29 minutes ago, tmj said:

What If the engine was chain driven to the paddle wheels? Could the engine have been off centered to keep the chain(s) centered on the paddle shaft (or whatever it's called), and in such the PH was off set, to the opposite side of the boat, as a counterweight? I'm sure you know exactly where I'm pulling this curious train of thought from, LOL. Maybe I'm just trying to make ol' Billy a bit 'quirkier' than she really was! 

 Billy was definitely not chain driven, Tom. The engine sat between the wheels. Billy is quite quirky enough thank you very much.  

[Cathead]

2 hours ago, Keith Black said:

 Thank you, Eric, Tom, and Bob for staying the course, sharing your thoughts, setting me straight, and forgiving (I hope) my hardheadedness. 

I don't know about "setting you straight", it's a coin flip who's "right". To me, center-stair seems both more logical and more suited to the photo, but you've every right to follow your own instincts and build it the way you're most comfortable with. 

 

For what it's worth, in my head, two 6'x10' rooms work nicely if you think of one as a cozy sleeping cabin and the other as a sort of pantry/storeroom. Plenty of room for a bed (and small WC?) in one and lots of shelving/cabinetry in the other. And you still have a larger main room under the pilot house to act as a combination living room, dining room, workshop, etc. Also, even the staircase isn't entirely wasted space because 1/3-1/2 of it also makes a great "broom closet". I've been in lots of houses where the under-stair area has been turned into a useful cupboard of one kind or another.

[Keith Black]

1 hour ago, Cathead said:

For what it's worth, in my head, two 6'x10' rooms work nicely if you think of one as a cozy sleeping cabin and the other as a sort of pantry/storeroom. Plenty of room for a bed (and small WC?) in one and lots of shelving/cabinetry in the other. And you still have a larger main room under the pilot house to act as a combination living room, dining room, workshop, etc. Also, even the staircase isn't entirely wasted space because 1/3-1/2 of it also makes a great "broom closet". I've been in lots of houses where the under-stair area has been turned into a useful cupboard of one kind or another.

 Well, now that you put it that way......I guess I'll put a small window in each section facing forward. The door will be nothing fancy as it faces the foot of the stairs and opens inward. Thank you again, Eric.