Maine three-masted schooner by Bedford - 1:54 - RADIO

[Bedford]

As an ex RC sailor I'm enjoying your build.  She's looking fine.

 

Bob

Bob, I will welcome any input you have that might help me get this right. As I said before I like working things out myself but if you can see something going the wrong way please speak up.

 

The only sailing experience I have is aboard the James Craig recently so I really am winging it with this but it's what I like, learn as you go.

 

I already have doubts as to the depth of the hull, being a coastal vessel she has a shallow draft. I was going to get the plans enlarged 300% horizontally and 350% vertically to give me a deeper draft but I decided to stay true to plan. A deeper draft would have meant more freeboard so a dryer deck and more weight in the sailing keel so less likely hood of being knocked down under sail. I may add a plank or two to the sides to make her a bit taller but I think she will be ok. Looking at the water line and trying to imagine how much water she will displace I think there will be a good few kilos to play with.

 

As a side note my Schooner for Port Jackson weighs in at 370 grams complete and the frame alone for this schooner weighs 900 grams.

 

Steve

Edited November 29, 2013 by Bedford

[Bedford]

As promised, some interesting pics

 

The masts and bowsprit seats are installed so I set her up to see what she looks like and the first impression......................BIG!

 

The proportions seem right so I am very happy with it.

 

 

 

This is how I seated the masts. The seats are drilled through at 86 degrees then glued and dowelled to the keel. In hindsight I should have milled a rebate in the  bottom of them so they straddled the keel but it was late and I didn't think of it. They will be hidden anyway so function is all that matters.

 

[augie]

Looks like she's going to carry a powerful amount of sails.  Well done!

[captainbob]

Yes, with all that sail she'll need lots of ballast.  What a lot of builders do, in order to keep the ship "scale" for display, is to add a removable, heavy, external keel while in the water.  This can be clamped on or fastened to threaded inserts in the bottom of the keel.  One advantage of the added keel is that it can be altered until the ship’s balance is right.

 

Bob

[Shazmira]

Good progress Steve, as for mishaps, well we know they happen, it is the recovery that matters!

[Jim Lad]

She's going to look pretty spectacular on the water, mate!  Lots of ballast needed, as Bob says.

 

John

[Bedford]

I was thinking of making an extended keel out of mild steel that would just attach under the keel and run its length but on reading other builds I decided to go with a detachable sailing keel and have been giving a lot of thought as to how to mount it before planking. Still not sure how I want to make the keel but I have worked out how I can mount any keel I make so planking will commence soon.

 

The keel will be deep to get the ballast well below the hull and as has been said I can fiddle with it until it is right.

 

I do wish she had a deeper draft because that would mean more ballast but I think I can overcome that if needed by adding a false polystyrene bottom with the keel thus giving her a deeper sailing draft but only if it becomes necessary.

 

Always thinking ahead, the joy of scratch building something you know very little about. That's why I do it though, to think and learn.

[Bedford]

Just a little tangential thinking but she actually looks quite good as is and were I the type to display bare boned models it would actually look quite good. You can see all the lines etc and the masts finish her off well.

 

Don't worry though, I don't do bare boned models.

[Bedford]

Thanks, I have seen that one before, ages ago. He cheats and turns the whole mast but she looks good under sail.

I am pleased you posted it because I had forgotten about it and the keel and rudder size are helpful.

 

It also appears that he has a false deck which is interesting.

 

Anyway a little bit of progress, the first plank is on, there won't be a lot of pics of the planking because, well, we've all been there done that.

 

[Shazmira]

Ah planking...and the mindless doldrums begin

[Bedford]

See, I knew I wouldn't need to post pics.....

 

I just wish there was a glue that would stay wet for 20 minutes then when pressed between two surfaces would dry in 5 seconds.

 

The waiting for glue to dry so clamps can be removed before attaching the next piece is a real drag.

[Shazmira]

Yep, that is why Augie uses thick set CA, says it gives him time to shift the planks a bit, but then in 30 seconds he is ready for the next plank, no clamping and drying time. Me, I am not sure I am ready for that step yet, don't trust my bending and shaping skills

[Bedford]

mmm don't handle ca either from memory..............

 

I have thought of using ca along the plank joints rather than running a bead of glue along them and clamping them together. I would glue the planks to the frame with the normal stuff then just run a line of ca along the join but I don't trust ca for such a big project that will be put to sea as it were.

[Shazmira]

Good point, I know augie says he juts puts a dab of ca on the bulkheads/frames, then lays the plank over. But you are right, Augie's are not seaworthy either...hmmm guess that just means you have to do it the old slow, painstakingly methodical way!

[augie]

I might consider 5 minute epoxy for this type of work.  If you're willing to mix it up in small quantities and hang on for a few minutes it'll set up well,  While still wet it wipes off VERY easily with isopropyl alcohol (I use 91% from WalMart) and, once dry it sands much better than CA.

 

Check on some of the RC boat threads.....I'm sure they must ALSO use something on the inside of the planking after it's done to waterproof the hull.  Probably a polyester finishing resin.  But there again, something like 30 minute epoxy, diluted to a brushable consistency with isopropyl alcohol will nicely seal the inside of the hull in 2 coats.  I use it myself inside of the floats for my float planes.

[JerryTodd]

I build my hulls with Titebond III

[Bedford]

I build my hulls with Titebond III

What do you seal them with?

 

Augie, 5 min epoxy would not give me long enough to apply it all the way along the edge of a 1 metre plank and to all the frames and fit the plank, making sure it is properly seated and clamped all the way along.

 

I am planning to fibregalss the exterior and epoxy coat the interior pending better ideas.

 

Steve

[fnkershner]

Most of the people in our R/C sailing club use West Marine Epoxy. In fact it is a fairly common practice to coat both sides of the plywood used for the hull with 1 or 2 coats of epoxy and then use thickened Epoxy fillets for the joints. This yields an amazingly strong and water proof bond. I have found that using fiberglass is too heavy and unneeded.

[JerryTodd]

My build logs are back online and linked in my signature, I suggest the Macedonian as the best example; but simply put, I build a wooden hull, and glass it outside, resin it inside, all done.  I build with scrap wood and planking cut from 1-by pine boards, usually 1/8" thick x 3/8" wide and 16" to 24" long.  Cheap, but it gets the job done strong, fast, and light.  You can fore-go the layer of glass, but even epoxied planking can open a seam with wood's movement unless you do a proper cold-molded hull, the layer of 4oz glass make's that point moot.  My next hull will use balsa instead of pine in the same construction method.

 

$20 at Home Despot gets you a quart of poly resin and a couple of yards of 4oz cloth from DuckWorks will run maybe $15.  You can't look at Gucci-System for less than $50.

 

Impress with your workmanship, not your wallet.

[Yambo]

What do you seal them with?

 

Augie, 5 min epoxy would not give me long enough to apply it all the way along the edge of a 1 metre plank and to all the frames and fit the plank, making sure it is properly seated and clamped all the way along.

 

I am planning to fibregalss the exterior and epoxy coat the interior pending better ideas.

 

Steve

 

 

West System G/Flex epoxy is great for fillets - I'll take a picture later - pot life is about 45 minutes and it sets up in a few hours. I can buy it locally in small containers (118 ml) and although it's not that cheap it's the best stuff I've found to fillet small seams. It's too thick for coating though hulls though. There are a lot of different epoxies unfortunately so it'll need a bit of research to find one that is thin enough to coat the outside of a hull and can be found locally. I have a love hate relationship with epoxy; it's a great coating for boat hulls, thickened, it's a great glue, but it's not cheap and horrible to work with.

[Bedford]

Jerry I have been reading your build logs today and there are some good ideas there, too late for me to go down that path now though so I will continue and see how it goes.

 

Yambo I have been wondering about the need for glass, the hull will be pretty strong, The planks are 1.5 mm thick and there is a ton of strength in the keel so I might just go with a good coat of resin or two.

 

I am not looing forward to working with glass, it is a bugger.

 

When you talk about "thickened" is that the way you buy it or is there an additive.

[fnkershner]

I agree with all that working with Epoxy is challenging. I have made my share of mistakes and it is not a forgiving substance. But I also have come to respect what it can do for me in a wet environment. For both of my R/C sail boats I have used Epoxy on the inside of the hull to seal the wood and protect against the inevitable moisture and on the outside to create a strong solid surface for painting. For joints as mentioned I use the thickened stuff that West Marine sells. they also sell a powder that you can add that makes it thicker yet. When installing the deck on my T37 I use a mixture that is about the thickness of Pudding and turn the boat deck face down. I find that if the temp is right the Epoxy fills the area between the deck and the sides of the hull. The result is a strong and watertight bond.

 

If you try this don't forget the wax paper between the boat and the bench. Else you will have a boat permanently bonded to the bench.

[Yambo]

 

 

When you talk about "thickened" is that the way you buy it or is there an additive.

 

 

The West System G/Flex is a thicker epoxy than some of their other epoxies I've used but it will run into gaps and run downhill. Other epoxies are thinner, you have to do a bit of research really - I have a limited supply of epoxies here in Turkey but in the UK I was happy with MAS epoxy - but they do a range so you have to check that out. 

 

Thickening epoxy to make it a better glue (epoxy is basically a coating) is done by adding wood flour, silica (or both) or fibreglass microfibres. Be very careful if using microfibres, They are definitely something you wouldn't want in your lungs. I always wear a mask if I'm using them. I always wear thin neoprene gloves when working with epoxy but I don't always wear a mask if just making up small amounts for models though. I probably should and do when I'm working on full size boats.

 

For fillets on seams everyone recommends that the epoxy is thickened to a peanut butter consistency and I make it about the same for filling holes before re-drilling them. I don't use de-natured alcohol for cleaning because I can't get a decent translation of the words here and no-one seems to know what I'm on about. I use acetone for thinning and cleaning up. For small batches I use plastic syringes to measure amounts - the G/Flex is a one to one mix but the other stuff I have here for a boat I'm refurbishing is a 3 to 2 mix. Mixing is critical and the key to a good coating or bond. There are also different speed hardeners to suit most applications and West Systems have a chart to show which of their epoxies/hardeners to use for different applications. Epoxy doesn't stick to polythene; I haven't tried wax paper.

 

Fibreglass isn't always necessary. As said, epoxy is a coating; fibreglass just adds strength to what you are doing. The boat in my yard is a plywood dinghy - about 40 years old. The plywood on the hull was starting to de-laminate in places so I glassed the whole bottom, It should be good for another 10 years or so, especially if I fillet the inside seams and add a couple of coats of epoxy in there. Just one other point; epoxy is affected by ultra violet light so a couple of coats of clear varnish will help if the treated item is going to get a lot of sunlight.  

Edited December 2, 2013 by Yambo

[captainbob]

Since the boat will be sailed you defiantly need to epoxy the inside of the boat.  And after each sailing you need to open the hatches and let the insides dry.  I have never seen an RC boat that did not get wet inside and without the epoxy the water gets into the wood and the next thing is a moldy, mildewy boat and that’s no fun.

 

Bob

[JerryTodd]

Add to that that any hole thru the hull should be over drilled, filled with epoxy, and then drilled to size so there's no chance of water getting to wood.

[mtaylor]

From someone who's never done this, I'm curious.  Would epoxy paint work?  I've used this stuff on metal before (autos) and am curious about wood.

[fnkershner]

Mark - I have never tried. I have always painted over the epoxy.

[capnharv2]

Just a personal preference (on my 1:1 boat). I prefer System 3 epoxy to West System. S3 is a 2:1 mix and West is a 5:1. Try as I might, I almost always get too much hardener in my West System Epoxy.

 

The first time I used System 3, I had only used the 5 min epoxy at a 1:1 mix, and mistakenly mixed the S3 at the same ratio. Almost had a fire in the garage. Then, after using System 3 for a few years, I couldn't find it and used West System at (you guessed it) 2:1. No fire that time, but I was using it to fill some cracks in my mast. Big mistake-5 years later, it was still gooey

 

I think the bottom line is to use the epoxy that works best for you.

 

Thanks,

 

Harvey

[Yambo]

No offence Harvey but epoxy is too expensive to not read the instructions.  

[capnharv2]

No offense taken. I wholeheartedly agree.

Edited December 3, 2013 by capnharv2