flying_dutchman2 Posted February 23, 2018 Author #271 Posted February 23, 2018 Mast and bow sprit are in. Still need to do the shrouds. None of the rigging is permanent yet. All roping is loose. I learned that lesson a few ships back. Keep everything loose so you can adjust it here and there. Once it is permanent it is difficult to adjust. Started on the sails stitching and adding bolt rope. The topsail is a dark brown sail I scavenged from a tjelk that broke from my last move. Both foresail and jib are stitched but no bolt rope yet. The main sail will be stitched next. I also made a pdf of how I make sails. Towards the end of the built I will show how I do it. Yesterday at my woodworkers meeting the treasurer gave me a Dremel Moto Lathe 700. It is a small one. Next week I am going to attempt making belaying pins with it. Should be fun to try. Also going to try canon barrels from wood. Marcus mtaylor, Piet, CaptainSteve and 4 others 7 Quote Current Built: Zeehaen 1639, Dutch Fluit from Dutch explorer Abel J. Tasman Unofficial motto of the VOC: "God is good, but trade is better" Many people believe that Captain J. Cook discovered Australia in 1770. They tend to forget that Dutch mariner Willem Janszoon landed on Australia’s northern coast in 1606. Cook never even sighted the coast of Western Australia).
flying_dutchman2 Posted February 23, 2018 Author #272 Posted February 23, 2018 Question and I think Jan can answer this as he knows the Utrecht by heart. How are the back stays connected? On the railing or the deck? Thanks. Marcus mtaylor and Piet 2 Quote Current Built: Zeehaen 1639, Dutch Fluit from Dutch explorer Abel J. Tasman Unofficial motto of the VOC: "God is good, but trade is better" Many people believe that Captain J. Cook discovered Australia in 1770. They tend to forget that Dutch mariner Willem Janszoon landed on Australia’s northern coast in 1606. Cook never even sighted the coast of Western Australia).
cog Posted February 25, 2018 #273 Posted February 25, 2018 What I can see from The Statenjacht Utrecht by Ab Hoving, on the railing, but wait for our expert's answer mtaylor, flying_dutchman2 and Piet 3 Quote Carl "Desperate affairs require desperate measures." Lord Nelson Search and you might find a log ...
Piet Posted February 26, 2018 #274 Posted February 26, 2018 What a nice gift Marcus, youl enjoy playing with it. Your sails will look wonderful, love the colors you are using. Cheers, cog and mtaylor 2 Quote Piet, The Flying Dutchman. "Your greatest asset is not the quantity of your friends , rather the quality of your friends." (old Chinese proverb) Current Builds: Hr. Ms. Java 1925-1942 VOC Ship Surabaya Planned Builds: Young America Diorama - scale 1:3000 Future Builds: KPM ship "MS Musi." Zuiderzee Botter - scale 1:25. VOC Jacht in a 6" lamp, Buginese fishing Prauw. Hr. Ms. Java - Royal Navy Netherlands Cruiser. Completed Builds: Hr. Ms. O16 Submarine Hr. Ms. O19 - Submarine Royal Navy Netherlands Ship Yard Diorama with Topsail schooner - Friendship Sloop Gwenfra Muscongus Bay Lobster Smack Golden Hind - Cutte Sark (both not in this forum)
flying_dutchman2 Posted February 26, 2018 Author #275 Posted February 26, 2018 Thanks for the comments Piet and Cog and all the likes. Finished all the sails and the standing rigging. Didn't have any belaying pins so I am making them myself. Stick a 2mm in diameter and 5cm in length in the dremel. This is fastened to the dremel drill press set up at a 90 degree angle. So the dowel is facing me. Dremel at lowest speed and use micro files to shape the pin. Average about 5 minutes per pin. Works great. Marcus mtaylor, Landlubber Mike, bdgiantman2 and 3 others 6 Quote Current Built: Zeehaen 1639, Dutch Fluit from Dutch explorer Abel J. Tasman Unofficial motto of the VOC: "God is good, but trade is better" Many people believe that Captain J. Cook discovered Australia in 1770. They tend to forget that Dutch mariner Willem Janszoon landed on Australia’s northern coast in 1606. Cook never even sighted the coast of Western Australia).
flying_dutchman2 Posted February 27, 2018 Author #276 Posted February 27, 2018 Finished making about 30 belaying pins and not all are the same. But I do have enough. All standing rigging is installed and permanently fixed (no going back). Next is the running rigging which will be the vangs, these are two sets of roping attached to the end of the gaff tied down close to the pavilion. Then attach the sails. Marcus Piet, druxey, DORIS and 4 others 7 Quote Current Built: Zeehaen 1639, Dutch Fluit from Dutch explorer Abel J. Tasman Unofficial motto of the VOC: "God is good, but trade is better" Many people believe that Captain J. Cook discovered Australia in 1770. They tend to forget that Dutch mariner Willem Janszoon landed on Australia’s northern coast in 1606. Cook never even sighted the coast of Western Australia).
flying_dutchman2 Posted February 28, 2018 Author #277 Posted February 28, 2018 On the Utrecht replica there are no ratlines but they are shown in the plans. Decided to follow the plans and install them. Maybe the yacht is a too small of a boat for needing this. My other models I built in the 80's didn't have them either. I wonder when you install ratlines and when you don't? What is the formula for this? Any books out there that will give me an answer? I am going to ask my club members for this one, or maybe anyone of you know the answer. Marcus Piet and mtaylor 2 Quote Current Built: Zeehaen 1639, Dutch Fluit from Dutch explorer Abel J. Tasman Unofficial motto of the VOC: "God is good, but trade is better" Many people believe that Captain J. Cook discovered Australia in 1770. They tend to forget that Dutch mariner Willem Janszoon landed on Australia’s northern coast in 1606. Cook never even sighted the coast of Western Australia).
flying_dutchman2 Posted March 1, 2018 Author #278 Posted March 1, 2018 Installed all the ratlines and instead of a drop of glue I use "Hard as Nails - Extreme Wear". It is clear dries quickly and you can cut the ends off very close to the shrouds. For people who don't know what this is. Women use Hard as Nails on there brittle nails or to cover nail polish. Also installed the topsail and working on the foresail and jib. Marcus Geoff Matson, mtaylor, Angarfather and 3 others 6 Quote Current Built: Zeehaen 1639, Dutch Fluit from Dutch explorer Abel J. Tasman Unofficial motto of the VOC: "God is good, but trade is better" Many people believe that Captain J. Cook discovered Australia in 1770. They tend to forget that Dutch mariner Willem Janszoon landed on Australia’s northern coast in 1606. Cook never even sighted the coast of Western Australia).
flying_dutchman2 Posted March 1, 2018 Author #279 Posted March 1, 2018 Thank you for all the likes. Something very interesting in the plans. Especially for the people who have the Utrecht from SeaWatchbooks. Look on Sheet #7. Look at the Sheetblocks Foresail, note the diagram. Then go to Sheet Foresail diagram. Look at it closely, what do you see? In the diagram on the left side, the side view shows a double block and on the right side, the front view shows a single block. OOPS OR you are supposed to shove 2 turns of roping in a single block. Anyway, finished installing the foresail and the jib. The rigging is still loose so towards the end I can still adjust it. Marcus Jack12477, druxey, prutser and 1 other 4 Quote Current Built: Zeehaen 1639, Dutch Fluit from Dutch explorer Abel J. Tasman Unofficial motto of the VOC: "God is good, but trade is better" Many people believe that Captain J. Cook discovered Australia in 1770. They tend to forget that Dutch mariner Willem Janszoon landed on Australia’s northern coast in 1606. Cook never even sighted the coast of Western Australia).
flying_dutchman2 Posted March 3, 2018 Author #280 Posted March 3, 2018 Thanks for all the likes. Installed all sails with the rigging still loose. I am very pleased with it so far. I have to redo the bit. I pulled it out when I put the rigging in the hole and then put the belaying pins in. Next boat I plan to install the bit before the deck goes in. I can glue and nail it to a frame or make the posts very long and use CA to glue it to the hull. Something will come up. Marcus Piet, druxey, mtaylor and 5 others 8 Quote Current Built: Zeehaen 1639, Dutch Fluit from Dutch explorer Abel J. Tasman Unofficial motto of the VOC: "God is good, but trade is better" Many people believe that Captain J. Cook discovered Australia in 1770. They tend to forget that Dutch mariner Willem Janszoon landed on Australia’s northern coast in 1606. Cook never even sighted the coast of Western Australia).
Piet Posted March 4, 2018 #281 Posted March 4, 2018 Now that looks extraordinary Marcus! Cheers, flying_dutchman2, cog and mtaylor 3 Quote Piet, The Flying Dutchman. "Your greatest asset is not the quantity of your friends , rather the quality of your friends." (old Chinese proverb) Current Builds: Hr. Ms. Java 1925-1942 VOC Ship Surabaya Planned Builds: Young America Diorama - scale 1:3000 Future Builds: KPM ship "MS Musi." Zuiderzee Botter - scale 1:25. VOC Jacht in a 6" lamp, Buginese fishing Prauw. Hr. Ms. Java - Royal Navy Netherlands Cruiser. Completed Builds: Hr. Ms. O16 Submarine Hr. Ms. O19 - Submarine Royal Navy Netherlands Ship Yard Diorama with Topsail schooner - Friendship Sloop Gwenfra Muscongus Bay Lobster Smack Golden Hind - Cutte Sark (both not in this forum)
flying_dutchman2 Posted March 4, 2018 Author #282 Posted March 4, 2018 Thanks for the compliment, Piet, and all the likes. Finished installing the Gaff Vangs, two for each side and the new bit. Except for belaying all the rigging, flags, and another deck item, she is finished. The flag on the jib in the plan is from the province of Utrecht, but in the book it is a Dutch flag. So it is a decision I have to make. Then on to making a display case. There are several people in my woodworkers club that make these. I might have them make the frame and I will add the Lexan. My wife wants the Utrecht on display in the office, which will replace the Mary (Royal Yacht). I have to find a home for her somewhere else. Marcus Piet, cog, mtaylor and 5 others 8 Quote Current Built: Zeehaen 1639, Dutch Fluit from Dutch explorer Abel J. Tasman Unofficial motto of the VOC: "God is good, but trade is better" Many people believe that Captain J. Cook discovered Australia in 1770. They tend to forget that Dutch mariner Willem Janszoon landed on Australia’s northern coast in 1606. Cook never even sighted the coast of Western Australia).
Angarfather Posted March 4, 2018 #283 Posted March 4, 2018 Hello Marcus, she looks quite fine. Congrats for finishing this nice dutch lady. best regards Hartmut cog, flying_dutchman2, mtaylor and 1 other 4 Quote on the : Staatenjacht Utrech At last finished: Gianna a Pinco Genovese HMS Agamemnon
Piet Posted March 5, 2018 #284 Posted March 5, 2018 A very fine looking model Marcus. About the flags, Several paintings I have seen of the jachten have a large Dutch standard with the shield of the city or company in the center white band at the stern flag pole. The jib carries a smaller Dutch flag and a red, white and blue pennon (wimpel) at the top of the mast and sometimes on the gaff. To get the shield of the City of Utrecht in the white band of the flag may be too difficult to achieve at this scale. An artist, Walter Otte van Soest, made a painting of the Statenjacht Utrecht in 2004 where he shows the flag of the City Utrecht at the stern with the Dutch flag at the jib and a small Dutch flag at the top of the mast. Either way you go it will still be a magnificent model. Cheers, mtaylor, flying_dutchman2, cog and 1 other 4 Quote Piet, The Flying Dutchman. "Your greatest asset is not the quantity of your friends , rather the quality of your friends." (old Chinese proverb) Current Builds: Hr. Ms. Java 1925-1942 VOC Ship Surabaya Planned Builds: Young America Diorama - scale 1:3000 Future Builds: KPM ship "MS Musi." Zuiderzee Botter - scale 1:25. VOC Jacht in a 6" lamp, Buginese fishing Prauw. Hr. Ms. Java - Royal Navy Netherlands Cruiser. Completed Builds: Hr. Ms. O16 Submarine Hr. Ms. O19 - Submarine Royal Navy Netherlands Ship Yard Diorama with Topsail schooner - Friendship Sloop Gwenfra Muscongus Bay Lobster Smack Golden Hind - Cutte Sark (both not in this forum)
amateur Posted March 5, 2018 #285 Posted March 5, 2018 (edited) Dumb, dumber..... What is the flag of the province of Utrecht? And sorry, I missed the question on the backstays. They are going inboard through a heavy piece of wood, and belayed on the inside. As a matter of fact, in the 'real' ship, they are positioned further aft than on your drawing. Jan Edited March 5, 2018 by amateur flying_dutchman2, Jack12477, mtaylor and 3 others 6 Quote
flying_dutchman2 Posted March 5, 2018 Author #286 Posted March 5, 2018 Hartmut, Thanks for the compliment. Jan, thanks for the suggestion, thought about changing to that but I used the plans. Piet, thanks for the flag information. In the SeaWatchbook the flag of Utrecht is too difficult to create in the scale of the boat. It will be Dutch flags on the jib, the pennant and on the pavilion. Orange, white and blue (oranje - blanje - bleu). The plans show a red, white and blue flag with the shield of Utrecht in the white area and a lion on each side of the shield. Too detailed to make it look good. Marcus Piet and mtaylor 2 Quote Current Built: Zeehaen 1639, Dutch Fluit from Dutch explorer Abel J. Tasman Unofficial motto of the VOC: "God is good, but trade is better" Many people believe that Captain J. Cook discovered Australia in 1770. They tend to forget that Dutch mariner Willem Janszoon landed on Australia’s northern coast in 1606. Cook never even sighted the coast of Western Australia).
amateur Posted March 5, 2018 #287 Posted March 5, 2018 That is not the flag of the province Utrecht, that is a Dutch flag with the coat of arms of the city of Utrecht, home town of the replica. Not a common flag for either town or province... Jan flying_dutchman2, mtaylor and Piet 3 Quote
flying_dutchman2 Posted March 7, 2018 Author #288 Posted March 7, 2018 Two questions: 1. The rope that hangs loose from the sheet main sail and foresail, how is it belayed? 2. How are the leeboards positioned when it is in the display case? One up and one down? Both down? Flags are painted on one side. The other side is tomorrow. Then a layer of Dulcote, and install on boat. Marcus Piet and mtaylor 2 Quote Current Built: Zeehaen 1639, Dutch Fluit from Dutch explorer Abel J. Tasman Unofficial motto of the VOC: "God is good, but trade is better" Many people believe that Captain J. Cook discovered Australia in 1770. They tend to forget that Dutch mariner Willem Janszoon landed on Australia’s northern coast in 1606. Cook never even sighted the coast of Western Australia).
cog Posted March 7, 2018 #289 Posted March 7, 2018 1. I don't know 2. What I've seen both up. As Jan Wrote in Hartmut's build, the lee side is lowered, but on display, you wouldn't show the lee side, but the weather side ... Angarfather, mtaylor, Piet and 1 other 4 Quote Carl "Desperate affairs require desperate measures." Lord Nelson Search and you might find a log ...
amateur Posted March 7, 2018 #290 Posted March 7, 2018 1 Which rope do you mean? 2 There are no rules for that. Following some model in the museums I did it this way: up and down. Looks good to me. before you ask: yes, Iknow part of the scroll work is missi g, and that the flag fromthe mastop is lying on deck. That's the risk of moving houses with these rather large models.... (although, being 36 years of age, she looks stil OK to me) Jan mtaylor, Piet, Angarfather and 1 other 4 Quote
amateur Posted March 7, 2018 #291 Posted March 7, 2018 I think I know which rope you mean. the sheet is belayed on the lower block of the sheet tackle. There is even a special block for that. You can see it onthe right side of the pic here. The block is hooked to the ring, the sheet can be belayed onthe block. The same holds for the fore sail (I guess dafi wouldnt mind my using his picture) this block is also used in other Dtch ships: like this botter and the rope is belayed like this (the heel of the block always on the aft side of the ship) the excess rope is either on abelaying pi to the side, orjust neatly. On the deck, depending on the setting ofthe sail Jan cog, Piet, flying_dutchman2 and 1 other 4 Quote
flying_dutchman2 Posted March 7, 2018 Author #292 Posted March 7, 2018 Jan: that is a nice looking model. I should have been more specific. I meant the rope that you haul in and out, the one the guys are pulling in the picture. Thanks for the pictures and diagram. Marcus Piet and mtaylor 2 Quote Current Built: Zeehaen 1639, Dutch Fluit from Dutch explorer Abel J. Tasman Unofficial motto of the VOC: "God is good, but trade is better" Many people believe that Captain J. Cook discovered Australia in 1770. They tend to forget that Dutch mariner Willem Janszoon landed on Australia’s northern coast in 1606. Cook never even sighted the coast of Western Australia).
amateur Posted March 7, 2018 #293 Posted March 7, 2018 That is the rope that is belayed on the block. Jan mtaylor, Piet, flying_dutchman2 and 1 other 4 Quote
flying_dutchman2 Posted March 8, 2018 Author #294 Posted March 8, 2018 22 hours ago, amateur said: That is the rope that is belayed on the block. Jan I didn't do this. I'll do it on my next built, which will be a Boyer. This is going to be my next built. Marcus Piet and mtaylor 2 Quote Current Built: Zeehaen 1639, Dutch Fluit from Dutch explorer Abel J. Tasman Unofficial motto of the VOC: "God is good, but trade is better" Many people believe that Captain J. Cook discovered Australia in 1770. They tend to forget that Dutch mariner Willem Janszoon landed on Australia’s northern coast in 1606. Cook never even sighted the coast of Western Australia).
flying_dutchman2 Posted March 8, 2018 Author #295 Posted March 8, 2018 My method of making flags is by Gus Agustin, an expert model ship builder. Below are the steps for people who are interested. I've altered his method somewhat. Flag making by Gus Agustin. 1. I copy my flags from the plans of the ship. 2. I trace the flag on clean white paper on both sides in pencil. 3. Trimmed it on 2 sides using the third and fourth side as a handle to work with. 4. I then crinkle the paper into the waves and folds that I want. This kills the memory in the paper. The waves and folds will depend on how you want to display the model with flags. This and step 5 will take some practice, but remember that paper is cheap, so have fun with it. 5. This is the most important part of making flags. Once you've crinkled your flag, dip it into a bowl of lukewarm water, lay it out on piece of glass (or I use a tile) while still wet, and play with it using toothpicks to reshape it again with the waves and folds you desire, than set aside to dry. I give it 24 hours to be completely dry before I handle it You've now given your flag a NEW memory. You can open it and with a little pressure with your fingers it will go back to the shape you created. 6. Now you can start painting, starting with the lightest color than going to the darkest. I use acrylics and even if the paper is white, I still paint it white. 7. Once you've completed one side with the 1st color, set aside to dry (I do 2 coats); then do the other side. (again I do 2 coats). 8. Proceed with the next color and repeat step 7. When finished painting, trim the handle (3rd and 4th side) but don't forget the tabs (top & bottom) so you can attach to the mast or ensign staff. This is where I do it differently. I trim all sides and don't use tabes, instead, I fold one side (about 2 mm) of the flag over, add a long piece of string and glue the fold with the string in it. Weigh it down until dry. Once dry attach it to mast or other area. At this point you can still play and refold the flag to the desire wave you want. If the colors are too bright, I use Dulcote to flatten the color. You have now made your flag. Don't be disappointed if it is not perfect, remember it's your first flag. With enough practice, you will get what you want. I use acrylic paint which is water base. You can fold and twist your flag and the paint won't chip or flake off. Water color paint will flake off and oil base paint takes too long to dry. Marcus amateur, Omega1234, Piet and 2 others 5 Quote Current Built: Zeehaen 1639, Dutch Fluit from Dutch explorer Abel J. Tasman Unofficial motto of the VOC: "God is good, but trade is better" Many people believe that Captain J. Cook discovered Australia in 1770. They tend to forget that Dutch mariner Willem Janszoon landed on Australia’s northern coast in 1606. Cook never even sighted the coast of Western Australia).
flying_dutchman2 Posted March 10, 2018 Author #296 Posted March 10, 2018 Some more pictures of flag making. 1. Here I removed the handles and all you have left is the flag itself. 2. Here I lightly score the flag to get a crease. 3. The crease is made, the string is laid into the crease and with little glue shut it. Let it dry and install it. Marcus Landlubber Mike, mtaylor, cog and 2 others 5 Quote Current Built: Zeehaen 1639, Dutch Fluit from Dutch explorer Abel J. Tasman Unofficial motto of the VOC: "God is good, but trade is better" Many people believe that Captain J. Cook discovered Australia in 1770. They tend to forget that Dutch mariner Willem Janszoon landed on Australia’s northern coast in 1606. Cook never even sighted the coast of Western Australia).
Piet Posted March 11, 2018 #297 Posted March 11, 2018 That's an interesting method, I have saved the instructions. Thanks for sharing. Your flag came out pretty nice. Cheers, Omega1234, flying_dutchman2, cog and 1 other 4 Quote Piet, The Flying Dutchman. "Your greatest asset is not the quantity of your friends , rather the quality of your friends." (old Chinese proverb) Current Builds: Hr. Ms. Java 1925-1942 VOC Ship Surabaya Planned Builds: Young America Diorama - scale 1:3000 Future Builds: KPM ship "MS Musi." Zuiderzee Botter - scale 1:25. VOC Jacht in a 6" lamp, Buginese fishing Prauw. Hr. Ms. Java - Royal Navy Netherlands Cruiser. Completed Builds: Hr. Ms. O16 Submarine Hr. Ms. O19 - Submarine Royal Navy Netherlands Ship Yard Diorama with Topsail schooner - Friendship Sloop Gwenfra Muscongus Bay Lobster Smack Golden Hind - Cutte Sark (both not in this forum)
flying_dutchman2 Posted March 12, 2018 Author #298 Posted March 12, 2018 I finished the Utrecht, this weekend and she turned out pretty good for my first scratch boat. I want to thank Jan (especially your pictures) , Piet and Carl for the suggestions. Next boat is a Boyer, from the 17th century Dutch merchant ships book, this will be slow going as the next 3 seasons my time is spent mostly outside. At the same time I am going to build an eight sided polder mill (achtkantige poldermolen voor de tuin). I will post progress on that build in the thread for non-ships. I want to thank everyone for following my build, and before you leave the room, please stack up the chairs in the corner. Marcus paulsutcliffe, Baker, prutser and 5 others 8 Quote Current Built: Zeehaen 1639, Dutch Fluit from Dutch explorer Abel J. Tasman Unofficial motto of the VOC: "God is good, but trade is better" Many people believe that Captain J. Cook discovered Australia in 1770. They tend to forget that Dutch mariner Willem Janszoon landed on Australia’s northern coast in 1606. Cook never even sighted the coast of Western Australia).
Omega1234 Posted March 12, 2018 #299 Posted March 12, 2018 (edited) Congratulations Marcus! She’s an absolute ripper. I can’t believe this is your first scratch-built model, because you’ve added so much fine detail and captured so much atmosphere, that one would think that you’ve been building from scratch for years. Well done. You definitely deserve a big pat on the back😁 Cheers. Patrick Edited March 12, 2018 by Omega1234 Piet, flying_dutchman2, cog and 2 others 5 Quote MY SCRATCH BUILT MODELS ARE: Splendid Mega Yacht https://modelshipworld.com/topic/28576-splendid-by-omega1234-scale-1500-mega-yacht/ Majestic Mega Yacht https://modelshipworld.com/topic/28483-mega-yacht-majestic-by-omega1234-miniature/ Sapphire Mega yacht https://modelshipworld.com/topic/21088-sapphire-by-omega1234-1388-scale-mega-yacht-66m-8-inch-hull-length/?tab=comments#comment-639898 Genesis - Supersports Mega Yacht https://modelshipworld.com/topic/18168-genesis-by-omega1234-1300-49m-mega-yacht-8-inches-long-finished/?tab=comments#comment-559026http://modelshipworld.com/index.php/topic/14141-shadow-by-omega1234-scale-1300-luxury-60m-mega-yacht-8-inches-long/ SHADOW Luxury Motor Yacht http://modelshipworld.com/index.php/topic/11384-majellan-by-omega1234-luxury-37-metre-motor-yacht-miniature-7-inches-approx/ Majellan Luxury Motor Yacht http://modelshipworld.com/index.php/topic/9261Rainbow-j-class-racing-yacht/?p=273543 Rainbow J Class Racing Yacht Mystic Classic Motor Cruiser Symphony Ingomar Schooner: Scratch build Dorade Schooner: <p> Lennox Restoration Warship http://modelshipworld.com/index.php/topic/9577-pandora-cutaway-dockyard-style-miniature/?hl=pandora
cog Posted March 12, 2018 #300 Posted March 12, 2018 Well done Marcus, especially for a first scratch build. Nice to see a Dutch ship too. Thanks for sharing Piet, Omega1234, mtaylor and 2 others 5 Quote Carl "Desperate affairs require desperate measures." Lord Nelson Search and you might find a log ...
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