HMS Montague 1779 bygaryshipwright - 74-gun Alfred-class

[garyshipwright]

Thanks Mark, it should pay for itself since it should keep down the dust and a lot less time on the clean up. It won't get it all, but we will see. At least thats the plan . Gary

[claybaker]

Gary,

A very tidy solution. I was thinking that maybe I could build something similar for my 48” lathe as well as my Taig, although neither is permanently mounted. Do you remember where you found the “Y” shaped nozzle over the bed? Are they from the loc line aquarium fixtures? I saw those, but at $75 each I’m hesitant to get them for a “trial” system. 
 

Clay

[garyshipwright]

Hi Clay. You can get the flare shape nozzle from loc line which is 3/4 inch but the also make some nozzles in the 2.5 inch size. Go to Modularhose.com and you can take a look there for what you need. The 3/4 inch flare nozzle  come in a set of 2 for about 9 dollars plus shipping. Once you get yours set up would be happy to see how your's comes out. Gary

[claybaker]

Thanks Gary, I will take a look. Sadly, my shop is in an old barn, so while somewhat roomy, any serious work out there until the temperatures rise a bit. 
 

Clay

[garyshipwright]

Hi Clay. Not having a warm place in the winter time would suck sir and would drive me crazy.  Just  a question but what if you blocked /walled off just a spot for the hobby, is that a possible? Am sure you have already thought about what you can do about your shop.  I probably spent about 2 to 3 grand over a time span of 5 years getting just the right gas heater and parts and piece which I installed in the shop last year. I had a electrical heater but it was costing to much to run and before that I tried a propane set up and that didn't work out either. Some were I read about the different type of set up to heat one's shop and probably have gone through all of them.  The gas one is the best and has really brought down the cost. Wish I had gone gas a long time ago. In the summer time I have a window air condition but only run it when the heat goes way up. Hope your heating problem get's fixed so you can spend  more time working on your ships and hobbies. Gary

[druxey]

Just make sure that you have adequate ventilation if using a heater. There are too many cases in winter of death from CO poisoning due to faulty heaters or lack of air.

[garyshipwright]

Thanks druxey Being that the shop isn't air tight it should have adequate ventilation. Another thing about the heater is the intake and exhaust. The intake for the fresh air comes in to the heater on the outside pipe, which wraps around the inside pipe which is the exaust which also keeps the exaust pipe cool while getting rid of the CO.

Sterling GG Concentric Vent Kit

Add Separated Combustion to the GG with the Optional Concentric Vent Kit http://www.littlegreenhouse.com/accessory/h-ster-con-vent.jpgSterling GG heaters can be converted to separated combustion when this kit is added to the heater. Separated combustion heaters draw combustion air from outside to ensure that the unit will always have plenty of fresh clean air. The fresh air supply reduces common concerns about dusty, dirty, or high humidity applications. You can also decrease heating costs by as much as 10% because no cold outside air is being sucked into the structure when the heater is running. What does the concentric vent kit do? The concentric vent kit allows the air intake and exhaust to vent to the outside wall with only one hole as shown in the picture below. Use for horizontal or vertical vent

 

[claybaker]

Hi Gary,

First let me apologize for hijacking the thread on your beautiful build, that was not my intention. 

 

I’ve attached a crude drawing (sorry, I’m on my phone) to help you visualize what I talk about below.  

 

The barn is an Amish built horse barn. I only mention that so that you picture 6”x6” beams with a peak height of 12’. I use one of the 12’x12’ stalls for dust making work and the tack room (~8’x11’) for assembly and smaller tasks. 

 

The tack room is insulated to the outside (I guess saddles are expensive) with one inch thick wooden walls on the inside and a little forced air heater is all I need in there.  The stalls however present two problems. 1) heat in the winter and 2) dust/dirt. 

 

Even though we’re in Virginia US, I was surprised there was no heat in the barn. My wife, who grew up with horses, told me horses make their own heat, so it wasn’t unusual. I’ve thought about a wood burning stove, but that would take up a lot of room, and the power is maxed - only a single 240V line run from the house split into single 20A and a 15A circuits. 

 

We do have propane heat in the house, but since the house is about 50 yards from the barn I would have to run either power (from the far side of the house) or a gas line (from the barn side of the house) down here if I want a non-wood solution. 

 

Dust - ugh. The floor of the stalls are dirt covered with horse mats. They keep the dirt somewhat at bay, but there always seems to be a settling of dust on everything. The tack room has a concrete floor covered with karate mats (for my comfort) but dust can be an issue in there too. 

 

I’m very open to any ideas you or anybody else have. We do have an unfinished basement that I thought about adding a shop to, but the biggest obstacle there is dust removal and/or the noise of dust removal. Oh, and the cats

 

Once again sir, I apologize for hijacking your thread. 

 

Clay

[garyshipwright]

Hi Clay. That's ok, and as far as high jacking the thread, to me it just a exchange of infor and really like hearing about other folk's workshop and places of where they do their hobby's. Most of they ideals of the shop came from other good folks that just like sharing there shop's much like your self. Since you mention the basement and the dust, what about hooking up a dust collection on the outside that would help get rid of the dust. My collector is on the inside of the shop but is vented to the outside.  I could of hooked up a set of filter's but after awhile they would get dirty cutting down on the amount of air  that would be pass-through to the outside. Beside those filter's are very costly and just went with  venting outside. Do believe it help's keep the dust down.  You could also maybe add a Hanging  air filter system which would help with the dust. Just a couple of ideal's and the cats, well I leave that one up to you.   As far as the noise goes, if its inside you could always put it in a sound proof box. Mine is in the back room which really cuts down on a lot of the noise that comes from it. Gary

Edited February 3, 2021 by garyshipwright

[claybaker]

Thanks Gary,

I will need to give that some thought. The basement ceiling is pretty close to ground level so I’ve got to look at what I have room for vent-wise. 
 

Clay

 

edit:typo

Edited February 5, 2021 by claybaker

[SJSoane]

Gary,

 

I linked all of my dust collection hoses to one dust collector by putting gates at the back of my workbench, all connected together by PVC pipe underneath the fir covering board. The PVC then hooks up the dust collector. It has an on-off switch powered by the tool turning on, so all of the tools are plugged into a power strip, which is then plugged into the dust collector. That means any tool turning on will turn on the dust collector. Sometimes I forget to open and close the right gates, but I find out soon enough when the dust starts swirling up.

 

When I install your solution to the Mill and Lathe hose,  I will make a junction box like yours and the hook it up to the gate at the back of the workbench, I am thinking....

 

Mark

 

 

[claybaker]

On 11/5/2020 at 1:04 PM, garyshipwright said:

Also how did the messenger round the coner in the manger it self or was it helped along by the crew to do this taken away hands from the capstan? 

Gary,

Not sure if you got an answer to this. Harland (p. 264) only shows cables coming in through the center hole (first two pics). Romero shows stanchions being added to bring cables in the outside holes and round the corner but doesn’t source his sketch (bottom pic) and Hahn doesn’t show those on his plans. 
 

Clay

[claybaker]

Gary,

Once I came into the house from the barn 😉 I was looking at Alan McGowan’s “Victory, Her Construction, Career and Restoration” to see if there was a picture fore of the bowsprit, and I stumbled upon the picture that Romero referenced (p. 197). So at least the idea of stanchions is plausible. 
 

Clay

[garyshipwright]

Hi Mark. Your set up looks very very good and may have to redo the set up for the other tools like the disk sander and thickness sander. My 
Byrnes Prec saw are on a roll around tool stand that has a vacuum in side of it. I did buy a  couple of blast gates for the mill and lathe but didn't install them. I have one of those on-off- switch  and may get another one for those tools. The one I have is on the full size drill press and the vacuum. I do have a switch above the bench that turns on the vacuum but having the hose loose I can use it to help keep the bench clean when the machines are not using it.    Hi Clay. In your first photo it shows that stanchen but I have not come across one in our ships manger time frame. As far as which hole they used, I don't think it matter's and was left up to the person in charge and you being the person in charge is left up to you. Now I saw that photo from  Romero and there is a couple of things that stick out like a sore thumb and both do not fit our time frame for Warror or Alfred. The rollers that he shows didn't come in to use till the 1800 I believe. I take a look and see if I can find where I read this. I looked for them but could never find any thing about them,  till our ships time which is probably why Hahn left them out. The only answer I can give about the messenger going around the foremast in the manger was they crew helped it. Now on the other hand, they may of done something like the rollers in Alfred/Warror time frame but nothing I can find.   If you find a answer good sir would very much enjoy the answer. I believe he didn't give a source was because he was the source and probably used McGowan's drawing of the  Victory  which does  show them but once again they would be out of place in ours. Another set of items that you see in Romero  drawing is a set of standards that look like knees up against the wall, which there should only be one and that one would be in the center up against the stem. Another item that is missing is the Hawse hook that set below the hawse holes. This would be on the Alfred/Warrior but not on the Montague. I will  put a photo or two, one of Alfred and one of Montague and you will see the difference. If Romero had looked in to a couple of contracts during that time he would of found that they only had one at the bow helping strengthing the stem. He could of used Steel of 1805 could also have came in handy to help him. O well live and learn. 

[garyshipwright]

Hi Clay I went and looked in Peter Goodwin's book, The Construction and fitting of the Sailing Man of War 1650-1850 And talks about the Messenger  Rollers, on page 156 and says that they didn't come it to use until1792.  He says that maybe a simple snatch block may have been used before this date. Am think out loud now, that maybe they used two snatch block one on each side to help the Messenger cable around the curve but that's just my thought's on them.  Am not sure if you have Peter's book, but would be a good addition for ones library. The one I have is probably  about 30 years old and is showing just a bit of wear and tear. 

[claybaker]

Gary,

Yes I see it now on 156. I had missed it before. I think snatch blocks are a possibility as you suggest, but hopefully we’ll find something that’s definitive. 
Since I haven’t started a scratch build yet, my copy of Peter’s book (20+ years old) is almost pristine, except for the dust jacket. It’s my copies of Lee’s Masting and Rigging of English Ships of War 1625-1860 and Harland’s Seamanship in the Age of Sail that are starting to show their age.  
 

Clay

[druxey]

Before the time when rollers were used, I think snatch blocks and a viol were employed.

[garyshipwright]

Thanks druxey and you may be right. I did take a look in Boudriot 74 gun ship vol 4, page 74 and it shows the exact same set up that I believe was common for are era. Seems that the messenger just went around the front of the bow sprint and was just helped along with the crew with no rollers in the manger. Apparently both the French and English were using the same set up during our time frame.  He did say that they had pillars/rollers  placed out far enough from the center line to keep the messenger from rubbing up against the pumps and other items. Did the English use rollers along the side, maybe, maybe not, can't find any thing until1792.  Probably won't really ever know but when I finally get to installing the pillars I just may get a answer for myself. 

[claybaker]

Hi Gary,

I’m waffling on my Warrior practicum decision and considering building her upright rather in Hahn fashion. As such, I’m trying to soak up all I can about framing. 
 

Thank you for including the 1781 contract in your build log. It looks like you had to key that in by hand which was incredibly selfless. 
 

Looking at the contact and Peter Goodwin’s “The Construction and Fitting...” [p 16] I think (and remembering that I have no idea what I’m talking about) that both describe the frames with chocks. Goodwin also says, “Now that these timbers were fastened by chock or scarphs, there was no need for them to be fayed and bolted to the adjacent timbers” [p 17 - Frame Construction 1750-1811]
 

If you don’t mind, would you share your thought process in deciding to use butts and sistered frames? 
 

i explicitly want to say to everyone that this question is not trying to imply you did something incorrectly, but rather I am purely trying to learn from someone I consider an expert in the craft. 
 

Clay

[garyshipwright]

Hi Clay. Well good sir my thought process on the framing  was I used butt's to hold the parts of the frame together that is shown on page 18 in Goodwin's book. Being a expert , thank you for that, but call my self more of a student who will never finish school.  When i started building my frames I did use chocks to hold the parts together but being that you make  about  a 130 frames it takes awhile  which is why I used the butt and dowel that hold's those parts together. Not as time consuming and once the planks  are installed on the outside and inside you can't see the chocks but if I had to do it again I would have installed the chocks, but today that is just a bit of hind sight on my part. Installing the chocks does take a while and after three years of framing figure chocks would have added 2 years to their building, for me anyway. Chock's would be more accurate doing our time frame. Now the sister frames  would have been called bends and it seems that He shows this on page 14,16 and 18. What they usually did, as far as I can tell in Alfred's/Warrior time frame,  would be to to build one bend( two frames put together as one) two single filling frames that did not touch each other and then another bend. Some where around the dead flat there was a changing of the floors so at that place you would have a floor, a first futtock and then another floor.  What they did is at the forward part of the hull the floors would be on forward side and aft the would be on the aft side. I added  a photo of Alfred's framing plan and my framing ,  they are about as close as I can get them. If you look at station 1 and the dead flat you will see the switching of the floor. How you can tell is that there is three filling frames between the two bend's and usually you only had two filler's.  Now the bend's didn't touch as the went up but was pushed apart with blocks of wood , so the upper parts of the frame's could make up the side of the gun port. Those parts of the frame were bolted together were the blocks were installed . I colored those blocks black and shows that this was a station and the filling frames did not have those blocks. Hope this makes sense Clay. Gary

Edited February 18, 2021 by garyshipwright

[claybaker]

It makes complete sense Gary. Thank you for your insight.  I’m a student too, so how about we agree to call you an advanced student and me a newbie? 

 

I hadn’t noticed the pieces between the bends. Thank you for pointing them out so clearly. I have to go back and study Goodwin some more, because I obviously didn’t take it all in. 
 

I’m not sure which way I’m going to approach my Warrior, but I’ve got time to think on it, I still need to raise quite a few spars on my Constitution. 
 

Clay

[SJSoane]

Gary, Nice to be reminded of your outstanding framing. It is fun to start covering all of this up with planking, etc., but it sure is nice every once in a while to see a hull in full frame in the earlier stages of a build!

 

Mark

 

[garyshipwright]

Hi Mark and thank you very much. Nice to see you are back out it to. Maybe I just may be able to get some work done on Montague in the future. Gary

[Hubac's Historian]

I agree with Mark - it’s been a long while since I’ve seen your beautiful model.  I look forward to updates whenever you are ready.

[druxey]

Hope all is well, Gary - we've missed you!

[garyshipwright]

Thanks Hubac and druxey, missed you guys to. 

[popash42]

Dear Gary

in the last days I had the privilege of reading your construction log, I must note that I have learned a lot and I am full of appreciation for your professionalism and creativity.

I have a dream that one day I will be able to achieve the professional level you discover.

[garyshipwright]

Thank you popash42 hope that you enjoyed it. Seems am a little slow at the moment but hope I will be picking up the pace soon. Gary

[garyshipwright]

Hello every one. I have a question and hope that you good folk's can help shed some light on this. I am trying to find this print of the Queen of 1769 in Arnold and Henry Kriegstein newest book which is a joy to read and looking at the model's in his book, Historic Ship Models of the seventeenth and eighteenth centuries in the Kriegstein Collection. The photo is on page  245 of the Queen of 1769, a second rate which says that it is draft shown to King George 3rd in 1773. I have contacted the NMM for a number and maybe getting a copy but with out the plan number it a little on the hard side.  I did go through the plan site that Allan showed us but no Queen of 1769. I also have been looking through the NMM site for it but so far nothing. I also sent a email about it to seaforth publishing but nothing back from them yet. Any help would be great and most helpful. Thanks guys. Look forward in hearing from you. Gary

[druxey]

It seems Queen was a 'one off' Bately design, so there are no sister ships whose plans might be viewable. If the RMG (ex NMM) can't help, perhaps an enquiry to the Kriegstein brothers through their publisher might work.