HMS Fly by Martin W - Amati/Victory Models - 1/64

[Martin W]

That photo is quite revealing, BE.  I did notice the difference in diameter, but without your experience couldn't really think of how it mattered or not.  I think you're right that seeing them as a set will help.

 

On a slightly different detail, I have this question:  both you & Alistair attached the GR emblem on the barrel -- did you fabricate that somehow yourself -- and would you mind telling me your secret?  It really makes a nice touch, even at this scale.

 

Cheers,

 

Martin

[Landlubber Mike]

Thanks for the picture BE, that's very helpful to see them all side by side.  

[Blue Ensign]

The GR monogram I used was part of a set provided with the Vanguard kit, a friend let me have a few he had spare.

 

However, since that time Dafi has produced some etched GR monograms to suit the Heller 1:100 scale kit.

 

The thought struck me that those suitable for a 32 pounder at 1:100 scale may be suitable for a six pounder at 1:64 scale.

 

There are two sizes provided, and I understand the large ones are 3mm x 2mm.

 

These are far superior to the ones I used which were unclear in definition.

 

Have a look, here's the link.

 

http://www.dafinismus.de/plates_en.html

 

Cheers,

 

B.E.

[Martin W]

Thanks a lot for that, BE.  It's an interesting site that I've never even heard of.  Now if only I can sneak an order in without the Missus finding out. 

 

Watch this space.

 

Martin

[aliluke]

Hi Martin

The cipher I used is probably even less well defined than B.E's version. I can't remember where I got them. I think Chris Watton chucked them in with the upgrade P.E set he sent me (he sent me a lot of stuff!). Anyway if you don't go down the Dafi route, I have a load of spares and I'm happy to send you enough for the 18 Fly cannons.

[Martin W]

Alistair -- that's very generous, and I thank you.  But I put an order in with Dafi just yesterday -- which is to say that I emailed him with a request for an order, but haven't heard from him.   I think that in the interest of general knowledge at least one of us should use Dafi's ciphers, and I volunteer.

 

Cheers mate,

 

Martin

[Blue Ensign]

Hi Martin, Daniel was kind enough to send me a full scale print of the cyphers so I may check them against the actual guns.

 

 

I have not trimmed them too close so they show up better on the guns for demo purposes.

 

On the left the RB 32mm gun: in the centre Chuck's Syren 29mm gun: and on the right the 15mm RB gun: (used for swivels)

 

The larger cyphers will fit both RB and Syren guns, not too small and in fact a better fit on the Syren model which is a fraction smaller in diameter.

 

The small cypher looks to just fit the 15mm RB gun, although I understand Chuck's model is slightly larger so the fit will be easier.

 

As Alistair says the Amati etched cyphers are indistinct to the point that I found it difficult to decide which way up they should be, but it's all a bit academic because the very small size precludes clear detail and the main benefit is that 'something' can be seen where the cypher should be.

 

Daniel's versions are much clearer and the detail can be made out so I think they should do the job for anyone wanting to enhance  their kit guns.

 

B.E.

 

 

[Martin W]

Thanks for that, BE, the photo shows quite a bit of the fit & proportion.  Daniel & I have finally linked up, and the PE sheet of letters & cyphers is speeding even now from Germany to the prairie.  To say I have bated breath don't do it justice -- I'm pretty doggone excited.  Although it is hard to judge precisely from the website, those cyphers are pretty impressive.

 

And last week I ordered a carriage set from Syren just to see how it looked, and I have to say it is nice indeed:  laser cut boxwood, that looks easy to assemble (ahem, at least before I get going), and well proportioned.  Seeing it led me to order some red stain so that I can check out its appearance in proper color. 

 

Now, if only my job would stop interfering, I could get some modelling done!

 

Cheers,

 

Martin

[dafi]

Hello Martin, 

 

parts are on the way since this morning :-)

 

And very enjoyable build, looking forward to keep up with it!

 

Cheers and thanks, Daniel

[foxy]

The etch one's that Daniel does are very distinct  all though there for the 1/100 scale.

But as Blue Ensign say's, they may suit the smaller guns.

Hope you get sorted

 

foxy

Edited August 25, 2014 by foxy

[Martin W]

Hi Foxy and Daniel -- thanks for checking in.  I really am looking forward to seeing the ciphers in actuality, and only hope I can do them justice.

 

Cheers,

 

Martin

[Martin W]

Just a quick and brief update on the guns.  I still haven't actually started on any assembly, but am trying out different options. 

 

First off, here's a comparison between RB gun & carriage with the kit gun & carriage:

 

                          

 

 

                          

 

What stands out to me is that on the RB carriage the groove for the trunnion is too far back, well behind the axeltree & trucks, which would have the effect of putting the weight of the barrel over no support.

 

Next, we have Chuck's carriage, unassembled, un-cut out.  This is boxwood, and quite attractive:

 

                           

So attractive, in fact, that I'm thinking for the first time of abandoning my aspiration to fabricating my own carriages scratch out of the same heartwood I used for the capstan.  To that end, I've gotten ahold of some stains -- not paint -- that might achieve a desirable red without concealing the grain. 

 

Here are the three I'm trying:

 

                            

From Left to right, we have the heartwood (in a circle) for comparison; then there's "Cranberry," which acquires a pinkness in this photo, but is actually the closest (in tint as well as space) to the heartwood.  Then there's "Mahogany," which it much too brown for my taste.  And finally, "Crimson," which in reality is just about as pink as it looks here.  The Cranberry & the Crimson are both water based -- I think the Mahogany might be as well, but the label has a lot more warnings on it.

 

For a final comparison, here's the Cranberry with two pieces of the heartwood:

 

                             

I think in this photo the proximity of the stain to the heartwood is clearer.  Plus, you can see how the lovely grain of the boxwood still shows.  On the basis of this experiment, I think I'm going to assemble Chuck's carriage stained, and see how it looks.

 

On a related issue, I set the kit gun & carriage in a gun port, with the strip clamped in place.  By "in place" I mean that I aligned the top of the strip with the tops of the bulkheads. 

 

                              

Ok, so I'm not going to use the kit's gun, but doesn't it look too high?  should the strip actually be a skosh higher than the bulkheads?

 

Suggestions, opinions?

 

Martin

[aliluke]

Hi Martin

I echo Spy's comments (if I read them right) and add some:

- Fit the gun port patterns to the top of the bulkheads as a first priority.

- Do not adjust them to fit the kit supplied cannons on the basis of a raw fit.

- If you go by the correct fit of the patterns you can adjust the barrel elevation or other elements to get the cannon centred on the gun port.

- Absolute centring of the barrel within the port no longer matters to me. There are too many other elements at play to make this of long term interest!

[Martin W]

Thanks for the advice on the accursed gunport strip, Spy and Alistair, I will definitely follow it.  I think part of the problem, as Spy suggests, is that these metal-cast carriages sit a bit high.  But another problem -- which I think others have mentioned -- is that the ports don't easily line up at a consistent height from the deck.  

 

I also find -- apropos of your suggestion, Alistair, that the barrel can be adjusted -- that these metal carriages are harder to adjust that the wooden carriages that have an actual quoin.

 

Spy, the ply doesn't seem to stain very well -- as I've found out in trying to stain the bulkheads -- since the laminated layers show through.  The ply carriages would have to be painted.  I have nothing against paint, and admire the color schemes that I've seen on other builds (and I also admire your ability to make those metal carriages look good), but in an attempt to make my own build at least somewhat distinctive, I'm trying to avoid the brush when possible.

 

If I can successfully drag myself through this last day of the work week, my hope is to get a Syren carriage set up this evening.

 

Cheers, and Happy Modelling!

 

Martin

Edited August 29, 2014 by Martin W

[Martin W]

Greetings -- The shipment of lettering/cyphers arrived today, and I thought I would post a photo to show them alongside one of the Syren gun barrels:

 

                         

 

The sheet is thicker than I had thought it would be, and the cyphers especially (so far the only pieces I've actully looked at on the sheet) look very clear and sharp.  This is a very nice product, and I would definitely recommend it.

 

You can see that there are 2 sizes on this sheet -- the smaller ones just above the barrel are the ones that look appropriate to this scale.

 

If I recall correctly (no gaurantee about that), a few people (BE & Alistair) mentioned that some of the cyphers came off during the blackening process.  What kind of glue did you guys use?  I assume you used cyanoacrylic?  Would it perhaps be better to blacken the barrels & cyphers separately, then glue the cyphers on?

 

Cheers,

 

Martin

[Blue Ensign]

Glad the ciphers fit the bill Martin, looking forward to seeing the finished product.

 

My approach to fitting the ciphers was to clean the brass, glue the ciphers with ca sparingly, and then blacken. Overspill of ca shows up and where it happened I scraped the excess off with a scalpel blade and re-blackened the gun.

 

Had to do this with one or two of the guns, but they all turned out ok in the end.

 

Cheers,

 

B.E.

[Martin W]

Thanks for that, BE.  In looking at them again, I can't help but feel a certain trepidation in handling such TINY pieces, aligning them, and still getting no glue outside the lines.  Maybe an IPA to steady these flippers at the ends of my wrists.

 

Cheers,

 

Martin

[Martin W]

Greetings -- This isn't an update so much as a plea for suggestions.  I have attached the aft portions of the hated gunport stips, and have found that the jigsaw joint is quite loose:

 

                                                  

 

I don't know why it's this loose, if soaking the foreward strips made them expand or shring (I also soaked the aft strips), or what.

 

I have glued some scrap behind the joints, under the deck.  I haven't done this above the deck because I'd planned to plank the inside bulkheads, and didn't want the scrap/blocks to interfere.  I know this will all be concealed by the quarterdeck, but I would like to have a neat, shipshape interior.  So my question is this:  must I reinforce the joint? or can I trust (read HOPE) that it will hold when covered with planking.

 

Cheers,

 

Disjointed Martin

[Martin W]

Hi Spy -- Thanks for the response.  In answer, let me say, yes this is the port side, and the starboard is just about identical.  And, yes, the aft strips do seem to rise a bit, but that's to keep the tops level with the tops of the bulkheads, and to keep the gunports at consistent level with those of the fore strips (determined by distance from the deck).

 

I do recall seeing your reinforcement of this joint, and that was what made me think I should do the same; but I also want to plank the insides of the strips, which is why I wondered if the reinforcement would interfere.

 

More thinking to be done.

 

Cheers,

Martin

[aliluke]

Hi Martin

Spyglass's advice is good. I had a gap at this joint but it was an even gap. Your joint is tight at the top and open at the bottom. This implies the strips are not going to flow along the hull. Even in your photo I sense a lack of flow between the two ports we can see. I did not reinforce the gap in my joint with any backing bits. I merely filled it up with epoxy glue. Strong as can be after that. I also had a kink at the joint but this has worked itself out now with the planking layers and the cap rail will kill it any appearance of it completely. I noted on Vitus's build that he had the same thing occur.

 

These plywood strips are a devils of things to get on. My feeling is to take the plunge and resolve the minor issues that may, or may not, arise later. As long as they are aligned with the bulkhead tops and reasonably aligned along the hull there is plenty of room for adjustments later on through the planking process and other fiddles. Certainly my gun ports are not at exactly even heights above the deck but, as Spy says, there is plenty of room to manipulate this fault with the guns themselves. Bottom line - I reckon anyone who got these pieces installed to absolute perfection did so by a fluke.

 

You'll do your head in fussing about it too much and you need to get planking!

[tlevine]

Martin, I think your problem is the final result of the situation you had with the fore plywood.  I would suggest running a batten along the inferior and superior edges of the gun ports and mark out any necessary adjustments on the plywood sheeting.  Then check the side walls of the ports for plumb.  Your run of planking should provide enough structural strength that the gap between the plywood parts will not be a concern.  Don't make any gun port adjustments on the plywood until you have installed a few rows of planking and don't put any planking butts adjacent to the junction of the plywood pieces.

[Martin W]

Lots of good advice, folks.  As I look over your photo, Spy, I actually begin to wonder if my problem is even bigger than I had thought at first.  As Toni reminds me, the first time I put the foreward strips on, I thought they might be forming too much of a crescent, higher at the stem than along the waist; and now, with the aft strips on, I get that sense even more.  Here's the full-hull shot you requested, Spy.

 

                                                  

 

The tops of the strips are aligned with the tops of the tops of the bulkheads.  The port side could come down a skosh, I suppose, and that might tighten the joint.

 

The idea of laying some battens or planking strips along the gunports and where the wale would go is really good.  I'm outside cutting wood for bookshelves for the next hour or so, but I'll give that a shot when I come in this evening.

 

Alistair -- you hit the nail on the head when you said that I need to start planking.  Yes!

 

Thanks again all,

 

Martin

 

 

[Martin W]

Here you go Spy, two shots from above:

 

                                            

 

 

                                            

 

Perhaps the problem is that the strip is too high at the stem?  That was my problem before, though there doesn't seem to be a lot of room there to lower it.

 

Martin

 

[aliluke]

I'm stumped by this - no idea what is going on. The only thing I can think of is that the bulkheads are not properly seated on the centre keel - that is they sitting slightly too high at either the stern or the stem which in turn distorts the layout of the plywood patterns. Impossible to change this now, so take the big plunge and adjust as you progress? I still reckon getting the flow of the sills and heads of the ports is important though.

 

Not much help I'm afraid...

Edited September 16, 2014 by aliluke

[Martin W]

Thanks guys, the pictures do help a lot, just to see what the angles should be.  I would appreciate having them here for at least a few days, so I can study them as I keep at this.

 

Alistair, I too wondered about the bulkheads being too high, but they are in fact down on the false keel as far as they would go.  At the bow, I used the dowel, which is the thickness of a bowsprit, to gauge the height of the strip  -- and maybe that put the strip too high there?

 

Following Toni's suggestion of setting a batten along the tops & bottoms of the ports revealed that problem is, as Spy suggests, in the waist.  Somehow the strip went low there, so that the aft strips then had to rise upward.  The aft ports all move upward.

 

At this point, my thinking is that I should try to reset the strips, just because the angle is too severe to be hidden.  I think the strip needs to come down a wee bit at the front, up in the middle, to give a straighter line with the aft strip.

 

I'll let you all know how it works.

 

Cheers,

 

Martin

[Martin W]

Just a quick update.  I pulled off all 4 strips, soaked them again and refit them.  In putting them back on I paid especial attention to the ports themselves, and how they lined up vis a vis the deck and the bulkhead extenions, trying to keep everything aligned and as straight as possible.  Here's the result:

 

                                                               

 

To my eye, this looks just about right, with the ports all pretty much on a level.

 

The culprits were, as Alistair suggested, two bulkheads, #1 and #12, both of which were about 3/8" too high.  Looking back at my notes from February or so, I saw that these two gave me considerably more difficulty that any of the others.  They looked wrong, but couldn't  go down onto the false keel any further, even with considerable sanding.  So now I see the first consequence to that error.

 

Thanks again to everyone for the help and suggestions.  It's a much better version of a bad design than I had before.

 

Cheers,

 

Martin

[aliluke]

That must be a relief - well done. Now the fun part - planking!

[Landlubber Mike]

Hi Martin, glad you got that resolved.  How did you figure out that bulkheads 1 and 12 were sitting too high?  I've been test fitting my bulkheads, and they seem to fit perfectly, though the first couple do require a bit of pressure to get fully seated down onto the keel.

 

By the way, in catching up on your log I read your post about using Cranberry Red for the gun carriages.  It looks really nice - I was wondering what Cranberry Red looked like.  I ended up deciding to go with using Redheart for the frames, bulwark planking, carriages, etc., but staining is another very good option.

[Martin W]

Hi Mike -- thanks for checking in.  The way I figured out bulkheads 1 & 12 were too high was largely by way of setting the strips along all the bulkheads, looking at the gunports, and trying out different adjustments.  When I began to think that those 2 bulkheads were off (Alistair's suggestion really helped there), I looked back at my notes, and saw that I had had difficulties in getting them to go down onto the keel as far as I thought they should have gone.  Although I didn't mention anything about this in my notes, I do recall setting the forecastle & quarterdeck on the bulkhead to test for level, and they seemed high then.  And then this past weekend I looked at their bottom portions in relation to the rabbet, and began thinking those might be high.  And that's when I decided they had to be off. Whether the fault is mine or the kit's, I don't know, and it doesn't even matter.

 

I also recall that the bulkheads can be hard to fit onto the keel.  I took that to mean that the fit would be permanent, but it also means that you have to be sure about the location, the squareness, and everything else before putting a drop of glue on.  -- I have a memory of looking along the edges of all the bulkheads, thinking I was going to have to do some faring, then realizing I set in a couple backwards.

 

As for the stain -- I'm actually surprized at how good it looks.  I had really planned on using some redheart, and had already begun doing some provisional cutting of the redheart stock for the carriages.  But since Chuck's are boxwood, and are right on scale, I thought I would let this one instance of non-natural color creep in.  Let's hope it's not a slippery slope of cranberry!

 

I'll be looking forward to seeing your carriages soon.

 

Cheers,

 

Martin

[Landlubber Mike]

Thanks Martin.  It sounds like it might make sense for me to start playing with the gunport strips before gluing down the bulkheads, just to make sure that they are sitting on the keel correctly.