HMS Vanguard by RMC - FINISHED - Amati/Victory Models - scale 1:72

[RMC]

I appear to have have been short-changed by Amati again.  There is no 1mm copper wire.  I presume it is to make the pintles., though 2 metres worth for this alone seems excessive.  Does anyone have any idea what the remainder is to be used for?

 

I have almost finished coppering the rudder.  It has prover to be far more difficult than I expected and the result so far has been just so so.  The sides are fine, but leading edge of the rudder is not as good as I would like. However with luck it will not show once the rudder is mounted.  I will try to post pictures on the weekend.

[RMC]

Ah.  Thanks Arthur.

 

All of that is a fair way in the future for me.  The rudder is my immediate  concern.  The pintles/gudgeons and whatnot  look rather forbidding. I don't think my soldering skill is up to duplicating your effort (in fact it's non-existent). I've bought some very small screw-in eyes (whatever they're called) and will try  these for the gudgeons.

 

Once the rudder is done I'm hoping for fairly quick progress as I have done nearly all of the fittings and made the ship's boats.

[RMC]

Another disaster.  Again the coppering has apparently reacted to something and turned dark in places, mainly around the edges of some plates.  I have no idea at all what could be causing it. I will wait a few days to see if the reaction goes further, then strip off the polyurethane...again.  I will then leave it for a week or so to see what happens.  In the meantime I will see if I can get some technical advice from the manufacturers of the products I have used.  It's very depressing.

 

 

Any suggestions are welcome.

[Beef Wellington]

Have you considered just leaving them unfinished to develop a natural patina?  Thats my plan and may even be completely tarnished by the time I finish :-)  Its all down to personal preference of course.

[RMC]

Hi Jason

 

 

Well now I know.  The Estapol has caused the reaction.  It is not suitable for copper.  The episode has turned out to be not one of my finest efforts. I would prefer to seal the copper, though I may end up letting nature take its course as you have.

 

I will make one more attempt to seal the copper - this time with an acrylic.  I have Humbrol spray matt acrylic varnish. The note on the can says it is suitable for metal (I hope including copper - this time I'll check) and a locally made clear acrylic satin which I know is suitable for copper. I would greatly prefer to have a matt finish though.

 

At least I know what I'll be doing over the next week or so.  I'd started to miss the acetone.

[aliluke]

Hell of journey there Bob. What a nightmare. I hope your re-clean holds the nice details you have. I don't know if you have tried Testors Dullcote lacquer as a matt finish - I have no idea how it works with copper. What I like about it is that even brush applied - it does come in spray as well - it settles to a very smooth finish. Guess I will trial it myself on copper but maybe it is an alternative?

 

Cheers

Alistair

[RMC]

Thanks Alistair

 

I'll see if I can find it.  I have never seen it here, but then I guess I haven't been looking.  I'll let you know how it goes.

 

Regards Bob

[Kevin]

Wow - what copper journey, just caught up with your log, and thought how nice the false keel, looked, i may do that on mine, i like the appearance of the ageing tiles, - but i will have to clean them again with brasso before final completion, as i keep replacing the occasional one, l looks a bit patchy as a result.

I will follow you progress and await the final chapter with the final coating

[RMC]

I have found the supplier of Dullcote and they have replied to my email inquiry.

 

They have a new product which will adhere to copper and should do the job.

 

It is Rustoleum Painter's Touch Ultracover 2X Clear Spray Matte.

 

I'm not sure if is available in countries other than the US, but a friend is coming to Australia to visit us in a couple of weeks and I have asked him to bring a can.  I shall report back.

 

In the meantime I have cleaned up one side of the copper again and fortunately it has come up well.  Practice really does make perfect. I hope the other side comes up just as well.

[RMC]

The cleaning is complete, however there is still a problem.  While the vast majority of plates are unaffected by the heavy and unsightly (almost black) tarnish there are a few, mainly around their edges that are. It happens very quickly, and from previous, painful experience can occur while 'protected' by polyurethane.

 

I have now decided to leave the plates without a protective coating for the time being and clean off the affected plates as they appear. I am hoping that whatever is causing the problem will gradually dissipate over time. I will be away for a couple of weeks or so from next weekend and will make some sort of decision about what to do when I return.

 

Assuming all goes well, I now have three alternative protective coatings suggested to me:

 

1. the 2X clear matte mentioned above;

2. Tamiya clear metal primer followed by Tamiya acrylic spray paint Flat clear; and

3. GoddardsLong Term Brass and Copper polish followed by Polish Up Glass, Metal ... Surface Protector.

 

Of the last, I was advised that a matt acrylic or pol urathane "should" be OK over it. (?)

 

Advice is welcome.

 

In the meantime I have put on the gun doors for the stern chasers.

 

In drilling the holes for the ropes I have drilled though  Tamiya masking tape - there is less chance of the drill bit slipping.  Unlike Arthur (AEW), I did not provide a recess for the doors as I thought I would probably damage the stern. The doors are simply 5x1mm strip glued on, but I think 5x0.5mm would probably have been better.

 

I followed Len's and Arthur's examples in using plastic tube to finish off the holes, ready to insert the rope-  In my case electrical shrink tubing, which I was able to reduce in size to 0.8mm in diameter.

The following shows the nice finish the tubing provides.

 

 

Edited February 24, 2014 by RMC

[RMC]

I have returned after 10 days of playing some very bad golf to find that leaving the copper seems to have done the trick.  There are a couple of small areas that were affected by the problem (easily cleaned) and the rest of the copper was just fine.  I will wait for the 2x matte to arrive next week and hope that by that time the copper problem will be over.

[RMC]

While waiting for the copper problem to resolve itself, I decided to test fit the rudder.  It's something that has worried me for a while and something I have been postponing as a consequence.

 

As gudgeons,I have used a brass nail inserted into the eye of an eyelet, glued with gel superglue. I let the glue set for a couple of days to make sure it was completely set. It worked a treat.  (Thanks Arthur for the idea.) I also used eyelets for the pintles.  The result seems to be quite sturdy. The gel CA, once really set is really hard and durable.  I'm afraid soldering things would have been beyond me.

 

 

Having placed the rudder to the correct level against the waterline I fixed the pintles/gudgeons at the  top and the bottom.  This gave the spacing for all the intermediate fixtures. Unfortunately the following picture does not show it all that well.

 

 

Here is the rudder with top and bottom gudgeons.  I followed instructions to taper the rudder which made coppering the front and back difficult. This is the front of the rudder with top and bottom gudgeons.  The coppering here is obviously not neat but once the rudder is attached (to my relief), any imperfections are completely hidden (The rear of the rudder is OK thankfully.)  The gap between stern post and rudder is 1.5mm, and when I finally fix the rudder, the gap could be made a fraction smaller.

 

 

 

When drill into the copper plates on the stern post used Tamiya tape to prevent the drill bit slipping.

 

 

Here is the rudder fiitted.  All of the gudgeons/pintles are dry fitted at the moment.  I will attach it finally  once the copper finish is done.

 

 

 

 

Edited March 12, 2014 by RMC

[aliluke]

Nice stuff RMC. It is interesting to look at your coppering as I go through the same process. In the end I think we took a different route but I think that has to do with the size of the hull. The rudder is going to be a hard one and you have done a very fine job on it.

 

Cheers

Alistair

[RMC]

Thanks Alistair for the comment.

 

Arthur: Yes, my main concern has been lifting the rudder on and off - getting seven attachments lined up.  The way I have done it has made it quite easy, though it is more accident than design.  I think the main point is to initially hang the rudder off the very top and bottom gudgeons/pintles with the appropriate spacing between the stern post and the rudder and then adjust all the rest to fit. The eyelet holes for the pintles are a little larger than the the nails, so there is a little bit of 'give' and consequently there is not the need for complete precision.

 

I will fit the straps but will experiment to see which - the etchings or paper - seem to be best.  At the moment I'm leaning toward paper and copper paint.

 

The whole coppering thing has been a bit of a nightmare. It has cost me about 2 months, though things here have been disrupted for various reasons - mostly good.   I have done all the deck/stern  fittings, gunport lids, the guns are prepared and the masts are pretty well complete.  It's been very frustrating.  Once the copper sage is over i'm hoping for some quick progress.

Edited March 12, 2014 by RMC

[RMC]

I have just lost a whole bunch of stuff - which is really annoying.

 

It turns out the 2X clear matte cannot be taken in passenger baggage, so my friend will post it when he gets back to the US .... in 3weeks.  The copper problem seems to have gone away however.  After 3 weeks or so it shows very slight 'normal' weathering.

 

In the meantime I will work on the stern. It seems best to do it while the model is upside down anyway.

 

I found that the stern facia did no quite fit the curve of the platform above it. I fitted a piece of 1x1mm strip to fill the gap and filed it to shape - later another was added to make the facia slightly lower so that the top windows would not be obscured.

 

 

I found the 3mm strip would not easily bend to the degree required. A 5mm strip was shaped to accommodate the bend and allow a lesser bend for the 3mm strip.

 

 

I then planked the stern until it was almost to the facia.  The facia was dry-fitted and the final piece of the planking shaped to fit  the gap between it and the penultimate plank.  I'm afraid the following photos are a bit out of order, but I hope the procedure is clear.

 

Here is the filler used to close the gap.

 

 

 

The extra 1mm strip added and shaped.

 

 

 

 

Here is the stern planked and the facia dry-fitted.  The fit is very snug and I have just put a first coat of black paint on the planking

 

 

In fitting the facia I will use 5 minute epoxy.  Using gel CA is a bit risky as the CA may fog the windows fitted at the side of the model (I haven't yet glazed the windows of the Facia - will use Kristal Klear again).  Have others found epoxy suitable for this?  Suggestions?

 

I am concerned about fitting the lettering 'VANGUARD' on the stern.  I have read how Arthur did it in his log, and will probably adopt his method, but I would like to know if there is a way that is a little less fraught.  Suggestions are very welcome.  I will also put out a general query.

 

 

 

 

Edited March 28, 2014 by RMC

[aliluke]

It all looks really, really good RMC. A fantastic stern,

 

For lettering are you using PE brass or Letraset? If the former I'd recommend the latter but the former is good too. I think set out is by eye. Layout your "Vanguard" letters on a piece of paper with the right vertical curvature and letter spacing and measure where the centre point of the lettering is. Lightly mark the centre point on the upper counter. I'm guessing it will be between the "g" and the "u" but it depends on the shape of the letters themselves. Fix the first letters around that centre and then transfer the letters from that centre point out to the port and starboard. Letter spacing is a complex thing but easier when they are all capitals. For instance the second "A" should not be too close to the "V". Place them on paper and shuffle to you get the right feel for the spacing. Mine is easier - Fly!

 

I'm just thinking this up but that is how I'd do it and I work with lettering in another life.

 

Cheers

Alistair

[Beef Wellington]

Bob, nice shots of the stern and great progress.  I'd second Alistair's recommendation to use the letraset approach, its nice because it has more authentic 'painted on' look to it, to the brass etch always look rather to pronounced.  I used these on Snake and would take the same approach again.  The other advantage, you get plenty of letters, and if you mess up, they can be rubbed off easily and then you simply have another go.  I was initially worried about letters being gold, but IMHO it doesn't call atttention to itself when next to the yellow ochre.  Its all opinion though, and it'll look great whichever way you decide to go.

[RMC]

Alistair and Jason: using a Letraset had not occurred to me. In fact I hadn't heard of one since I left school - a very long time ago. It seems both more forgiving and probably more authentic.  I have no idea where to get such a thing, but I guess the internet will solve that problem. I'll give it a go - at least if it doesn't come out, I still have the letters supplied in the kit. By the way, what fonts do you thing would be appropriate?  I will try to get an idea if I can find a photo of the Victory's stern.

 

Len: thanks for your kind comment.  Regarding your suggestion about spacing etc - while awake at 3 o'clock in the morning, I had come to similar solution.

 

Regards to all

 

Bob

[aliluke]

Hi Bob

This is what I got http://www.letraset.com/products/107-Times-New-Roman It is 5mm high Times New Roman in gold. It arrived within a week from the UK but I think the postage was more than the cost - still pretty cheap though. I think there are at least 3 "V"'s in the set. Several here use this - Blue Ensign and, I think, a Sherbourne build as well. I have yet to try it but will be doing so soon as it needs to go on before the trims to the upper counter.

 

Bon chance

Alistair

[RMC]

Thanks Alistair.  I just went to the website - -it looks the goods.  I'll order as soon as I finish this.

 

Bob

[RMC]

Woops - just checked the size of the letters on the plan - 8mm. Unfortunately there is no gold times roman in 8mm in the letraset.  I'll think about 5mm and do a bit of playing around to see what the smaller letters would look like.

[RMC]

I have just photo-reduced VANGUARD from the full-sized plan.  The two photos attached compare the 8mm with the 5mm letters. I am now rather undecided. I am leaning towards putting on the 8mm letters supplied with the kit. If I mess it up I can sand back the affected area and put on the Letraset letters, so all will not be lost.

 

Feedback is welcome.

 

This comes directly from the plan.

 

Here is the 5mm version.

Edited March 29, 2014 by RMC

[Blue Ensign]

Hi Bob, I'm not a fan of those brass etched letters so beloved of kit  manufacturers sometimes because the lettering is too modern and always because  the names were painted on  and not blocked which is the appearance you get no matter how thin the etch is. I used Letraset on my Pegasus build

.

The rules governing the names on sterns were by order issued in 1771; that ships should have their names painted on the second counter, in letters a foot high, and be enclosed in a compartment.

 

The order was amended in 1772 and names were; to be painted without a compartment in letters as large as the counter would permit, this was the fashion at the time of Trafalgar.

 

Looking at your 5mm letters they don't strike me as being 'odd' but the 8mm ones are probably truer to scale, and better meet the 1772 rule.

 

The last two kits I have made had etched  letters which under the kit instructions were to be painted white, personally I found this too stark at scale, and gold/ochre has a more period feel. I also tried vinyl stick on letters which were available in larger sizes, but didn't like the effect.

 

I understand some modellers create their own transfers on their computers using special paper and fonts to suit, but I'm not sure of the procedure.

 

There are also companies out there who will produce dry rub lettering to suit, but I've no experience of them.

 

Vanguard is coming along very nicely.

 

B.E.

[aliluke]

Hi Bob

That is very clever work by you. Blue Ensign is the gospel and I would certainly not challenge his opinion. The 8mm does look better to my eye but I would not die in ditch over the scale.

 

In terms of calligraphy it is more interesting. The "A" needs to be slightly closer to the "N" and the "A" slightly closer to the "R". I'm completely anal about this stuff but it is thinking about the space in between letters. Putting "FLY" on my counter is going to be a trick. The "Y" needs to be slightly closer to the "L" than it is typed here...Will send you a PM with another thought.

 

Cheers

Alistair

[RMC]

Thanks Alistair. I will take you up on your kind offer. I will send you a note with my address etc.

 

Upon mature (?) reflection I have decided to try the Letraset first. (I did think I would rename the bloody thing "FLY' but it didn't get off the ground. Next time I'll build a ship with a shorter name.) A couple of glasses of NZ sauv blanc  over dinner possibly helped making the decision. Incidentally, if you make it to Sydney sometime, the drinks are on me.

 

I have also emailed Letraset to see if they have some 8 mm hidden away.  I have found it doesn't hurt to ask, and sometimes you strike it lucky.

 

And thanks BE for your trouble.   Your work  and reserch was the final influence.

[coffeebeans]

Hey Bob, looking real good.

I really like the amati copper plates you have used, so much so I got some for my ship because of this log.

Just a quick question on what your thoughts are on the overall kit, the timbers they use and their fittings.

I am looking out for a nice kit to follow on to after my build and am wondering about amati.

 

Thanks

Luca

[RMC]

Hi Luca

 

I have been very impressed with the overall quality.  The timber is very good (I have seen some better, but the difference is marginal - anyway, you will probably paint it) and I was shortchanged on some 12mm dowel, which was annoying, but not a real problem.  I suspect it's who actually packs the kit.  The fittings are excellent.  The plans are very good indeed, though there are a couple of minor things which require you to be clairvoyant. Since I bought mine, Amati may have corrected the very few problems.  Assistance from this website is likely to solve any remaining problems you may have.

 

The kit is quite demanding, but I would highly recommend it.

[dafi]

Enjoyable build :-)

 

Here is another version of how to put the name onto the stern.

                                          #24                         

 

Cheers Daniel

[RMC]

Daniel: thanks for taking the trouble to show me your method.  I certainly provided a beautiful result. Unfortunately I have no idea how I would duplicate your work. I think this is an area where kit manufacturers should think about ways to make it easier (and more accurate) for novices like me and so many others.  If you make a mess of it , it spoils the whole model.

 

Kind Regards

Bob

[RMC]

I have now painted the area below the facia, though does not yet have a coat of polyyurethane.

 

The decorative wooden strips have been painted and attached.  These were pre-bent using my little bending machine (I don't know what else to call it) a photo of which appears earlier in this log.  The 2x1mm strip was quite splintery, and it is a good idea to coat the strip with a little thin CA first to prevent breakage.

 

Here is the facia dry-fitted

 

The following give some idea of what the facia and the decorative molding look like. I am very tempted to attach the molding to the facia as well as some of the cast decorations before putting the facia on the model.  It would make things far easier.  A potential problem is that the facia will have a slight curve when attached.  Gluing all the bits and pieces onto it without any 'give' in the glue may result in trouble.

 

Comments/suggestions welcome.

 

 

The two bits of ply poking over the top of the facia will have to be filed down flush.This, and the need to lower the facia so that the windows are obscured (others have had the same problem) suggest  the plans need revision.

Edited March 31, 2014 by RMC