18th Century LongBoat by jburchfield1 - Model Shipways - 1/4" scale - SMALL - 1st ever build

[Mike Y]

The basswood strips from the kit are soft after 10sec soaking in a boiled water. You can bend them with a bare hands, or clamp, etc. 

Just don't glue a wet strip, it will shrink when dried, so you will end up with gaps. 

I usually used a slow technique - soak the plank, pre-bend with fingers, clamp it to the frames to have the same shape as needed, leave it overnight to try, next evening - glue that planks, and soak and fit next pair.

As a result, you glue just 2 planks per day (one on each side), but bending is easy, plank is perfectly fitted when try.

[jburchfield1@wowway.com]

Mike -  I thought about using the bulkheads as a "frame" by clamping the planking to them.

 

BUT,  doesn't that risk getting enough moisture into the bulkheads (from the wet planking strip) to risk warping/swelling?

 

Alistair - (or anybody) is their such a thing as "overbending" or does the "snap back" of the strip keep that from occuring?

 

Maybe I'm just overthinking this and just need to jump in, as it were?

Edited May 6, 2014 by Pops

[Chuck]

Just jump in!!!!!  The water is just fine.  If you break something,  Expo will replace it.  Theres no substitute for getting a feel for it without over thinking it.  Thinking about it too much leads to ship model paralysis.

 

Chuck

[jburchfield1@wowway.com]

LOL that's kinda what's happened.

 

I'll jump in immediately!!

 

Thanks Chuck.

[Mike Y]

Mike -  I thought about using the bulkheads as a "frame" by clamping the planking to them.

BUT,  doesn't that risk getting enough moisture into the bulkheads (from the wet planking strip) to risk warping/swelling?

 

You wipe off all excess water when you pull the soaked plank from the water. So it would be just damp, but not dripping wet.

I had no problems with getting moisture into the bulkheads. 

 

However, you will need lots of small clamps. There was a nice topic somewhere, about making a simple clamps from a paper clips. Looks like this, and very handy:

But always put a small pieces of scrap wood or card between clamp and plank, basswood is so soft that it would be smashed otherwise.

 

P.S.: don't overthink it, just get started! There are spare planks in the kit, you have a room for a mistake, especially if you use a glue that could be dissolved with water or alcohol. Planks are attached incorrectly? Not a big deal, tear them away, glue again. I used PVA-style glue, just add a water, glue joint is getting weak, you remove the plank and reuse it again.

[Mike Y]

Also, it may sound obvious, but not mentioned in a manual. Shape the inner edge of the plank with a file, to have a better contact between planks, to avoid gaps.

No shaping, there most probably would be a gap:

 

Shaped planks, no gaps:

 

P.S.: and, again, do not count on sanding to level your hull and hide planking mistakes. It is purely cosmetic, in that build planks are too thin to be significantly sanded. 

P.P.S.: good luck, and just start it!

Edited May 6, 2014 by Mike Y

[jburchfield1@wowway.com]

K, hit a major non-repairable snag.  Got the first two planks on (each side).

 

Somehow, (not sure how since I used a block) the second bulkhead from the stem is too small, causing a major "sinking" of the planks.

 

Gotta re-order the kit since I was using CA and can not get it apart.

 

But as Arnold says,  "I'll be back".  

 

PS Next time gonna use plain old wood glue.

 

BTW anybody know of a video tute on fairing the bulkheads (maybe I can see what I did wrong?)

Edited May 9, 2014 by Pops

[jburchfield1@wowway.com]

K, new kit ordered.

 

Gonna work on the mast and stuff till I get it.

[mtaylor]

Pops,

Have a look at the three planking tutorials here:  http://modelshipworld.com/index.php?/forum/14-building-framing-planking-and-plating-a-ships-hull-and-deck/  I'll assume you have already looked at the other logs???

 

CA can be loosened/removed with acetone and PVA (wood glue) will take isopropyl alcohol for the same thing.

 

Were all the bulkheads in the proper place?  

[jburchfield1@wowway.com]

Mark - thanks a lot for that link.  After looking at them I see my errors (and they are definitely ALL mine).  Main thing was rushing - bad habit I've got.  What was really brain-dead (on my part) I had one of them bookmarked so I could use it when I got to that point and failed to go back and look at it.

 

Yeah, the bulkhead is in the right spot.  I'm not sure how I got it too small.  I'm positive it was not a kit error either.

 

I had forgotten about acetone loosening the CA, but after looking things over again today, I realized that when I supposedly faired the bulkheads, I totally blew it when I beveled them up in a curve following the bearding line instead of toward the stern as required.

 

So that being the case, I ordered the new kit today and will just remake the hull.  As a plus, that'll give me a lot of spare parts for future boo-boo's.

 

Got to learn to put some kind of "governor" on my hurry up attitude.  Well, lesson learned (I hope).

 

Thanks for your help.  

[jburchfield1@wowway.com]

Got my new kit today and have started rebuilding the hull.  Not going to use CA this time, just wood glue.

 

One question tho, for those more knowledgable about gluing.

 

Normal gluing procedure (furniture, etc) requires that both surfaces be coated with glue.  Do you find that necessary with basswood? or does applying glue to one surface work considering the porosity of the wood?

[Mike Y]

Depends on a glue, but with PVA-based wood glues usually one surface is enough. Applying it to two surfaces you will most probably have too many glue, which you will need to remove later.

But try your glue on a scrap pieces, the best answer is just an experiment.

[jburchfield1@wowway.com]

K, making progress.

 

Got the hull faired correctly and have installed the first 2 sheer planks, both starboard and port.

 

No pictures yet.  I had borrowed a camera from my daughter and she is angry with me at this time.  Sometimes you wonder if they are ever gonna grow up!

So looking for a camera that I can afford.  Pics to come.

[fnkershner]

Pops, I know I am late to the party. But are you aware of the Model Expo guarantee? I just received the replacement parts from them of the 2 sheets of laser cut parts that are 3/32" thick for free.

 

PS I don't know how old your daughter is. My Son is 41 and I still grit my teeth.

[jburchfield1@wowway.com]

Floyd - Yes I found out about their guarantee.  Best guarantee I've ever heard of.  I just felt that by buying the kit a second time I would have ALL of the duplicate parts in case of future mess-up? Buying both kits only cost me $69 which I felt was more than fair.

 

My daughter is 38 going on 12 sometimes - believes that her father should still support her but not require anything from her.

[jburchfield1@wowway.com]

How come I can't edge bend a strip without buckling?  It's not related to soak time - I've used 5 minutes to 4 hours, boiling water.

 

I'm trying to bend around a form that's about 11/2 to 2 inches in diameter.  Is that too small a bend?

 

On another note I've ordered a 1200 watt blow dryer that I can use with my "antique" wiring - so that'll speed things up a little bit.

[mtaylor]

Pops,

Edge bending is probably the toughest thing to do.  Some say it's doable, others say impossible.   Part of the problem is the type of wood, the amount of bend vs the width and thickness.   I might be better to just get some stock and cut the wood out and sand and fit for the curve.

[jburchfield1@wowway.com]

Thanks Mark,

 

I've also been thinking about using oversize and cutting/sanding to fit so I only have to bend on the face and not the edge.

 

I wouldn't want anyone to see my longboat at this stage (maybe never) as there are a lot of gaps, dings, etc., but I'm sure learning a lot about what can/cannot be done.  It has basically become an experimental platform.  Of course once I'm done experimenting/learning I can always remove ALL the planking and then do it right.

[fnkershner]

Pops, I think the longboat is a great platform for experimenting and learning. I am using it to improve my planking skills (lord knows they are in need of improvement). I am also using this kit to experiment with different wood and Chuck's method of treenailing.

 

On your edge bending have you tried bending just a bit and letting dry and soak and bend some more? Like mentioned in out longboat logs I have a piece of Plexiglas that I lay the soaked plank on and bend with clamps. I also soak them for 30 min.

 

On the subject of the Model Expo guarantee. My first completed kit was the MS Bluenose. I must have replaced most of the parts at least twice. I am sure they didn't make any money off of that purchase. But I have been a loyal customer since. I should also mention that I bought a kit off of eBay from someone else. when I found it was missing parts and the seller would not respond. I reached out to Model Expo (since they carried the kit) I offered to pay for the missing parts. they treated me like I had bought it from them!! They sent me the parts I needed for free.

[dcicero]

Regarding edge bending, I tried all kinds of techniques before finding one that worked for me.

 

I tried thoroughly wetting the planks, wrapping them in paper towels and nuking them in the microwave for 2 minutes.  That works.  It produces a nice al dente plank!  Seriously, it's like working with a noodle.  You need to shape the plank prior to cooking it, though.  You can't sand those noodles...

 

I tried the "long soak" method, where you leave the plank in the water for a long time, letting it get thoroughly waterlogged.  (I used a tray used for mixing up drywall mud for that.)  Less work than cooking the planks in the microwave and about the same result.

 

Here's the one that worked for me.  Cut the plank to a length slightly longer than you need.  Go to the sink and get it wet.  Don't waste a lot of time.  Just run it under the water and get it wet.  Then clamp it to a piece of plate glass.  I got mine at a glass shop for just a couple of bucks.  Mines 12" x 12" and a little bigger than necessary.  I think 6" x 12" or even 6" x 6" would be fine.  Use lots of clamps and get the best bend you can in it without it buckling.

 

Come back in 10 minutes or however long it takes for the plank to dry.  Take off the clamps and you'll see the plank try to snap back to its original shape, but not all the way back.  Wet it again and clamp it again.  You'll find, the second time, that it'll bend a little farther.  Let it dry.

 

I found that two or three iterations were needed to get the more extreme bends in the plank.

 

Here's the part that I missed initially and had to learn over time.  Just because you're edge bending doesn't mean you don't have to spile the planks.  They're still going to need to be bent a little -- in the normal way, not more edge bending -- carved a little, sanded (to the get the edges to mate properly) and generally finessed into place.  It gets a lot easier after you've gotten the first two or three planks in place, but I found fiddling with the planks is still necessary, even with the edge bending.

 

 

 

Dan

[jburchfield1@wowway.com]

Thanks Dan, I'll give that a try.

 

I have messed up two hulls now (two separate kits) so in addition to learning some tips from Mike Y's build and my build, I think I'm ready to try again.

 

Instead of buying another kit (just for the hull) I've decided to also try some "scratch" or maybe "bashing" and went out today to buy a 3/32 for the false keel and bulkheads, a 1/16 for the transom and some more 1/32 x 1/8 for the planking.  Cut up one of the plan sheets for the parts I need, and I'm gonna start cutting tomorrow.  Hopefully, get some pics/progress up here soon.

 

Unfortunately, my d*$>n truck stopped running (I've got an F150 and the computer thinks I was trying to steal it) so that trip is gonna cost me a couple hundred bucks, but I REFUSE to give up on this.  Even with all my "failures" and re-do's and start overs, I'm learning a lot and I really love this craft (art?).

[fnkershner]

Pops, First off you are to be commended for sticking with it. You will be so pleased once you get over the hump. Sort of a personal triumph. Can I remind you of the guarantee? I am on my 3rd false keel and 2nd set of bulkheads and It has not cost me 1 additional penny. Also I have found that creating my own false keel out of my own wood. Is a non trivial task. To get the slots cut correctly may give you fits. I got my new false keel in 1 week.

[jburchfield1@wowway.com]

While waiting on some replacement bulkheads/keel parts, I'm working on some of the other parts.

 

My question is about the brass - is it common practice to always anneal the brass?  and does that simply mean to heat it red-hot and let it cool naturally?

 

That seems to be true, just want to make sure.

[fnkershner]

Pops - I almost never anneal any of my metal parts. I haven't found the need too. Now sometimes if I am creating them from scratch yes.

[jburchfield1@wowway.com]

I agree so far.  I've been working on the brass parts for the mast and have  had no trouble with them.  Maybe they are just to small/fine to need it.

[jburchfield1@wowway.com]

K, got my replacement parts.

 

I have completed installing the bulkheads, and added the 2 sheer planks.  Got the balance of the bulkheads divided today and starting the rest of the planking tomorrow.  Think I've figured out all my trouble spots, so hopefully this time - SUCCESS!

 

Will have a camera some time next week so I can post pics - but I'm still here and still trying.

[fnkershner]

Pops you are fast! It has taken me a full week just to get the bulkheads in. I expect I will spend most of tomorrow fairing the bulkheads and shaping the bow blocks. Sheer planks will have to wait until some time next week.

[jburchfield1@wowway.com]

Actually Floyd, I'm a loooong way from fast.

 

First off, this is my 3d attempt at this boat so I've had some practice at putting the keel and bulkheads together.  Also, finally figured out the fairing thing.  

 

Second, I've actually been working on this part since Tuesday morning when I got the parts, but since I don't have a camera yet, didn't see the need to post each step.

 

Now though, I'm starting the "harder" part of planking, and I'm getting a camera sometime next week, so things will probably get much slower.

 

For some reason, had a lot of trouble with the planking concept, shaping, soaking, spacing, etc. (probably my in-ability to "visualize" anything - I have never been able to form a mental picture of anything    ) so been doing a lot of re-re-re-reading and testing to figure it out.

 

Got my fingers crossed this time.  

[gjdale]

Love your attitude Pops. Can't wait to see your pictures.

[jburchfield1@wowway.com]

Thanks Grant - No way in "heck" am I gonna let this whip me.

 

BUT, I do have a question for anybody that knows.  I've been trying to figure this out since I first start trying to plank (back three boats ago!)  

 

 

 

Why oh Why is the garboard plank done like the top half of the picture instead of the more logical (to me as an amateur) bottom half of the picture??????

 

I was looking at a video on YouTube the other day that showed it being done like the bottom half of that picture on a full size sailing boat, but everything I've seen done here has it like the top half.