Continental Gunboat PHILADELPHIA by Chuck Seiler - Model Shipways - 1:24 Scale - Enhanced

[Chuck Seiler]

That is John Bratten's dissertation (doctoral dissertation perhaps?) on the wreck. While not word for word, it appears to be the basis of the book I cited. This was dated 1997 whereas the book was published in 2002. With the exception of a few flourishes, I suspect the info is the same. Good find Bart!!!

 

I did not recall the part about the floorboards being connected with trunnels. I will have to re-read that. My recollection was of the replica using trunnels and my thought at the time was that they expect the replica to last more than 2 months.

 

There is evidence (as cited in the dissertation and book) that they actually installed one of the mortars in PHILADELPHIA and it exploded while testing there-on. The other blew up upon testing as well. He says there were square openings in the inner planking indicating where the mortar may have been mounted (on the aft platform), but the Model Expo plans do not show that detail.

 

Another "Oh crap" moment from the book. When they went to mount th eforward 12 pounder, the stem was inthe way and had to be cut down. Ooops!

[mtaylor]

Research is fun.     I think if you hate that many holes, then pencil will work best.  Is it one for every so much width or two per plank per frame? The pic you posted shows what looks like 4 per plank per frame I think it would carry over the underside... maybe?    I guess different design, different builders... 

[Chuck Seiler]

Mark,

Chapter 8 of the dissertation Bart linked to in post 101 is almost the same as chapter 7 of the book. I will compare the two later this weekend, but reading the book I see that in some cases the number of nails or treenails are given precisely and others estimated. From my readings it appears to be a case of "nail the crap out if it, where ever needed" as opposed to any particular formular.

I kind of glossed over that section (construction) when I built the first time because it was alot of stuff at once. As I look at it again, I am finding alot of good stuff and since I plan on more detail, it helps alot.

I was incorrect in saying there were 32 frames, there were actually 39.

Since we don't plan on nailing until later, my plan is to go thru the book chapter 7 and come up with the specific nailing numbers for each section. He divides it into lower (underside) planking, interior floor (ceiling) planking, interior side (ceiling) planking, exterior planking, the wale, deck platform planking.

Should I present this as a post or as an enclosure to a post?

Kurt, do I get my NRG "research ninja pin" for this?

POST SCRIPT. Different designs/different builders? Eh? More like an organized cluster-goatrope. If you read the early chapters of the dissertation you get a feel for what they had to do to get these things into the air...er ah onto the water. 8 gunboats and 4 row galleys over a couple months time in the backwoods of nowhere using prety much green wood, with an unknown number of carpenters and shipwrights coming and going based on a design that nobody knew. Apparently Arnold wanted the gunboats to be like the ones on the Delaware. Nobody knew what those looked like. However, they had been building bateauxs on the lake for decades. The gunboats appear to be based on those designs with the frames massed produced. The boats were slapped together in three weeks, with pieces dissembled later in order to place armament and other items once the boats got to fort Ticondaroga for fitting out.

Edited September 6, 2014 by Chuck Seiler

[mtaylor]

Yes, it was a cluster-goatrope.  I've read the dissertation on the Philly and also the Eagle.  All I can do is shake my head and marvel at what they did. Men and hardware coming in from all over with different skill levels of the men and different quality of materials.  Just amazing that they got anything accomplished.

[Chuck Seiler]

More on nails and nail patterns.  As I mentioned above, I will put together a piece on what the nail patterns were based on BRATTEN.   However, here is a clarification of a previous post.

 

 

Here is the previous picture of PHILLY with some of the nail positions outlined in white.

Edited September 6, 2014 by Chuck Seiler

[Chuck Seiler]

Progress continues.  I have installed all frames except 1...#12.  As indicated earlier, from what I have read and from what I see in the virtual 3D Philadelphia, I perceive the bulkhead at the back end of the forward platform to be nor solid.  Instead it is open and is sort of a crawl space under the forward platform where supplies and firewood can be stored.  This means most of frame 12 must be cut away

 

Here we see frame 12 altered.  Floor beam and side frames exist.  Deck beam is being fitted.

 

 

Here is some planking progress that is still a bit rough.  I will need to smooth it up, but I waned to get in into the log. 

 

A- The forward end of the midships platform is planked.  I will eventually o this to both bulkheads in the aft cockpit as well.

 

B- Forward cockpit planking continues past frame 12 and on to frame 13.  I will eventually put stuff here so you cannot see too deeply into the hold.

 

C- I added a little nub aft of the mast slot.  This was/is not on the real ship, however I had alot of trouble with the eyebolt/block assembly at this location in my previous build.

Edited September 8, 2014 by Chuck Seiler

[Chuck Seiler]

I had the opportunity to take a good look at Dave Yotter's 1:16 Philly.  He is making it from the Smithsonian plans, with a ll the framing and planking per the original.  Unfortunately I did not have my camera for pics.  He said he would send me some.

 

Dave nailed all the planks,much as Bear did, using the formula outlined n BRATTEN (which I will attempt to extrapolate).  I would have thought that all those dots would have been distracting, but they were not.

 

I hope to have some pics soon.

[kurtvd19]

Chuck:

Have not been able to check the progress for a bit so I am late in responding.  Yep, you qualify for a NRG research ninja pin   I decided that doing the nails was not for me on this build - to each his own.  Your model is looking great.

I attached a photo of my Philadelphia as of the other day - I had decided to replicate the museum's replica boat that floats in Lake Champlain.  Got some of Chuck's blocks yesterday for the project.  Wish he had the right size blocks for the guns - they are coming but I couldn't wait with the magazine schedule.

Kurt

[dgbot]

Chuck you are a glutton for punishment.  My hat is off to you.

David B

[Chuck Seiler]

Kurt,

 

    Lookin' good!!!!  What size blocks did you use for the guns?  As I recall, the plans call for 10MM.  The largest Chuck makes is 9MM, but he didn't have them in stock at the time of my last order.  I may go with the 9s.

 

   Glutton for punishment?  Isn't that part of the job description?

Edited September 13, 2014 by Chuck Seiler

[Chuck Seiler]

This kit building group is a rough crowd. If you dawdle for a few days you drop down to page 10 and get a vagrancy citation.

I have been semi productive, but not in any particular order. I have doing some more research, scoping out nail patterns and stuff. Mostly I have been working on my non-kit modifications and some planking. While I have not been posting, I have been IMing with Steve. Starting tonight, I will be getting my ducks in one sock so I can post progress pretty close to the order it is outlined in the instructions.

Kurt V. D. has a new article out in "Ships in Scale" if you have not yet seen it.

Edited September 20, 2014 by Chuck Seiler

[bebopsteve]

Indeed Chuck has been a big help. Also Kurt.. Thanks guys..

[Chuck Seiler]

    The following few sections include modifications to the kit.  Some of these were planned/considered before I started.  Some were a result of revelations after reading BRATTEN a little more thoroughly and consulting with Dave Yotter. Because they are modifications to/variations from the kit plans, I feel it is important to include the "why" as well as the "what" and "how".

 

    Once again, a major shout out to Dave Yotter and his 1:16 Philadelphia.  He is using the plans from the Smithsonian which were a DIRECT result of the survey.  While the plans are too brittle to bring to the meetings, he has shared info with me.  It's not like they are original plans, or anything.  He has just been working on it for a longtime.  Rumorhas it that he actually consulted with Benedict Arnold to get info on some of the original construction techniques.  Just sayin'.

 

 

 

  

    Floor planking of the port side of the aft cockpit.  Pretty straight forward.

 

 

 

    Here I planked the aft bulkhead of the aft cockpit.  Dave's Philly has the top plank removed.  I ill stick with the kit on this one.  Oh, that's right, the kit doesn't plank the cockpit bulkheads.  Fore and aft bulkheads of the aft cockpit are both planked.

 

 

 

   

Moving over to the strboard side, we see alot of changes.  I was reminded that the keelson sits on the floor timbers.  at this point it would be a real pain to cut away that part of the keelson, so I removed the wood piece attached to the right side of the keelson and inserted a piece of wood 1/32" thick painted black, cut the wood piece I just removed and replaced it on the floor beams.

 

 

    BRATTEN indicates there were limber holes in each floor timber, on either side of the keelson.

 

 

 

    Looking at Dave's Philly, the bailing well is the entire length of the aft cockpit.

 

 

 

    I decided to go with the kit dimensions.  It makes it harder to see the painted slot "under" the keelson. 

 

    BRATTEN indicates that there was probably a lid on top of the bailing well, but floated away when the boat sank.  That kind of makes sense.  A continuous flat surface would create less of a trip hazard.

 

    All these still need to be smooth sanded.

Edited September 20, 2014 by Chuck Seiler

[dgbot]

Chuck would you recommend Brattton as a must source if I were to tackle the Philadelphia?

David B

[Chuck Seiler]

Dave,

    Absolutely.  He gives a good overview of the military and political situation in order to set the stage.  "Benedict Arnold's Navy" goes into greater detail, but as a single source, Batten is pretty complete.  He then burrows down a bit and talks about building the fleets.  He has a chapter on each.  other chapters include the lead up to the battle and one on the battle and its aftermath.  The mother lode is/are the two chapters on "construction" and "artifacts".  There you get alot of details.

 

    If you are going to bash the kit or build it using ME plans, this is the way to go.  If you want to build a full on scratch, also get the Smithsonian plans.

[Chuck Seiler]

Off on another side trip, for reasons explained below.  I rough faired the frames and test fitted the top strakes.  Reading BRATTEN, I got a strong impression that the Model Expo plans were incorrect and there was only 1 strake above the wales...it was the width of the two strakes ME used.  Specifically, he refers to the wale as being 'directly under the sheer strake.  Also, when discussing exterior planking he says there are five strakes and a wale.  Clearly there are four strakes below the wale.  I consulted Dave Yotter.  He said to go with BRATTEN. 

 

 

Why did ME go with two strakes above the wale?  I don't know.  Perhaps with a wider strake you would have to spile and they wanted to avoid that.

 

 

I went with a wider piece of basswood, slightly wider than what strakes 1 and 2 are combined.  It appeared to go in very well.  I intend on going with the single.  I will keep you advised.  For those going two, I recommend NOT caulking between them

 

 

The reason I went with dry fitting the planking a little early is because I needed to fit the deck beam for frame 12.  Once I had cut away alot of the bulkhead, the frames got relly springy.  I had marked where the beam SHOULD be and I was pretty sure of the length of the beam, but I didn't want any surprises come planking time.  I set the planks and fitted the beam to those dimensions. 

 

 

 

 

[bebopsteve]

How wide is the 2nd strake?

[dgbot]

The odds are that is the widest plank they produce.

David B

[Chuck Seiler]

    Go with the dimensions on the plans.  If I recall correctly, the sheer strake = 3/16" and second = 1/4".  When combined, this pencils out to just under 1/2 inch.  . 

Edited September 22, 2014 by Chuck Seiler

[GuntherMT]

The level of research you are doing on this is something else Chuck.  I admire it, but I don't think I'm ready to embark on that sort of thing for my own builds.

 

You are building an amazingly researched historic model.  I'm building a model boat out of a box. 

[Chuck Seiler]

Brian,

 

    Understood.  Keep in mind that I have been doing this awhile and this is my second PHILLY.  As I find things out for my build, I am explaining hat I am doing and passing it on to other builders.  They can do what they wish with it.  I am hoping that by doing this, builders can better understand the build and may be able to upgrade/bash their model.

 

    With this in mind, you might be prompted to use the two strakes, as indicated in the plans, but not to caulk.

 

    Good luck.  The model out of the box is pretty terrific.

[Chuck Seiler]

I have my cockpits pretty much planked and am doing some last minute sanding before planking.

 

I have inserted some 'treenails' at some strategic points to keep the structure sturdy.  I am a firm believer in supplementing glue joints with pegs.

 

Bailing well cover in place.  I will eventually drill a hole in each corner adjacent to the keelson and insert grab ropes to assist in lifting the cover off the well.

 

Holy cow!!!!  I need to do a better job at sanding that cockpit floor.   (Yeah, I know in real ships it is called a deck.  This is an army ship.  Bratten calls it a floor...placed upon floor timbers.)

 

Bailing well cover removed.  shazaam!!!

 

I am thinking of staining the cockpits before planking.  Whadya think?

[bebopsteve]

I am going to stain floors and walls before planking further.. What color you using Chuck?

[Chuck Seiler]

    I'll be using the Golden Pecan for interior and Pecan for exterior.

[Chuck Seiler]

Bart,

 

    I would have to double check my plans at home, but I believe the pieces you are talking about (29 and 29A) are the square pieces that run from the keelson out to the edges.  They are there to support the inside floor planking not the inside bulkhead planking.  Check out my post 116.  It shows those pieces exposed.  Is that what you were looking at?

[MarkCC]

Chuck, I am not seeing them in the pictures.  I may be wrong, but the way I interpreted the drawings was they went on top of the cockpit deck planking and followed the curve of the frames.  There is a small one and a longer one  for both cockpits and they are laser cut.  They are curved and match the curve of the frame, definitely not square. That was 3/16" cut from stock as I recall.

 

This is the way I interpreted these pieces as well.  It looks pretty clear from the drawings that they are their to support the inner planking down by the cockpit floors.

 

Mark

[kurtvd19]

I would urge that the exterior planking be done first - at least the starting planking at the shear line as these plank runs are marked on the outside of the frames.  Starting the interior ceiling planking you are guessing as to there to start.  Once you are started on the exterior planking the interior can be started but be sure to make the inner planks level port to starboard with the exterior planking - there is a tendency for these interior planks to rise up and be higher in places that the exterior planks causing one to have t trim them level by sanding.

 

The added filler strips to support the inner planking at the bow area that I added are shown in the photo on either side of the keel piece.  I forgot about this area being visible in the finished model so I had to do some cleaning up and filling of the small voids alongside the outer planking.  These pieces I added actually show in the plans and some photos of the original boat in the Smithsonian and Bratten.

Kurt

[bebopsteve]

I planked the walls just as Chuck did. I attached 29a and 29 to the walls. Should be ok. If I have any issues, I will just remove them.. Sound ok? Also, after I stain the floors and walls, should I hit it with clear poly? semi gloss  

[Chuck Seiler]

Instructions?  What are they?  :-(  I do not recall 29 and 29A....I guess I blew right past that one.  I'll check it out when I get home.

 

I use DEFT Satin Spray Finish.

[bebopsteve]

Lol...I read and re-read the instructions and still get 99% of it wrong.. So, DEFT satin.. is this available h depot ? any trick to applying the stuff?