Martin W

HMS FLY by Martin W - Victory Models - 1/64

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That's interesting Nils.  I actually ordered the 29 mm barrels from, following the lead of Blue Ensign. Now I wish I had also ordered some at the 32mm length, just to do a comparison.  Isn't the RB barrell 32mm? 

 

Cheers,

 

Martin

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Errrrrrrrrrrrrr  Martin - I HATE to tell you this - but that is NOT walnut ply - that is one of the the c**p metal carriages :D  I had  over from a Fly that got "shipwrecked" .

 

So you can see the metal carriages are not quite as bad as they seem after a lick of paint and a bit of drilling and fitting - so maybe revisit the metal carriages?

 

Its certainly cheaper and faster !!

 

Here a few of the failed attempts on route  to improve them :pirate41: !!!

 

post-905-0-50384100-1408468134_thumb.jpg

 

The walnut ply supplied in my Pegasus for the guns was real rubbish I tried one build but the ply just came apart so I despaired.  They couldnt even get the wheels round

post-905-0-10805700-1408468608_thumb.jpg

 

So that is two of the ply sheets in the Pegasus kit were just not up to scratch. Amati really need to review the stuff they supply.

The Fly kits ,for some reason, though almost identical contained much better wood.

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Yes correct Martin,

 

the RB Barrels are offered in different lengths. I chose the 32 mm length to fit the 20 mm Long carriages.

RB also offers small kits each comprising 4 Gun-Barrels and 4 carriages at a fair price

 

Nils

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Aha, Spy!  I thought those carriages looked as though they'd been modelled after the kit carriages, copying their lines onto the walnut.  But what really threw me were the eye bolts.  I guess I hadn't thought even that cheap-o metal would be soft enough to drill.

 

Nils -- did your RB carriage kits come complete with the transom, or how did you resolve that lack?

 

Cheers,

 

Martin

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Martin,

 

I`m not sure what is meant with "transom", but the kit contains :   8 sidewalls, 4 gunbarrels with pivot pins, 16 wheels, 8 axiles, 4 tapered wedges.

The cap squares are not included

 

Nils

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Nils -- My understanding (from the diagram in FFM 1) is that the transom is the piece of wood forming the front of the carriage, with a concavity cut to cradle the gun barrel.  It would also provide support and spacing for the carriage sides.

 

Cheers,

 

Martin

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Hi Martin

There is a long discussion on cannons in my log - you may have seen it. I used 32 mm RB barrels and Syren Models carriages.

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Hi Alistair -- In fact, I've gone over that part of your log countless times (hmm, seems I've done the same with lots of other chapters from your log as well) -- I definitely count you among the "intrepid trailblazers" I referred to above.

 

Nonetheless, I'm still trying out a few ideas, none of which has succeeded: e.g., I just came in from my outdoor workshop (ambient temp, 98, on the Fahrenheit scale -- which I guess is something like 40 on the Celsius; doesn't matter:  it's hot), where I tried cutting some plugs with my full sized miter box.  No luck, since there's just enough give that cutting a 1/4" piece start off right and ends at either 7/32 or 9/32.

 

Still, I have one or two other ideas.

 

Cheers,

 

Martin

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Hi Martin,

 

transom is understood, but no, not included. I just left it away as the barrel requires some space in the carriage front and the transom would not be visable from above anyhow

 

Nils

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Interesting Nils -- so what does the barrel actually rest upon?  I'm going to have to go back and study your photos some more.

 

Thanks for the info.

 

Martin

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That's interesting Nils.  I actually ordered the 29 mm barrels from, following the lead of Blue Ensign. Now I wish I had also ordered some at the 32mm length, just to do a comparison.  Isn't the RB barrell 32mm? 

 

Cheers,

 

Martin

 

Hi Martin, I used the 32mm RB Barrels,have I said somewhere that I used the 29mm ones? I also used the 15mm RBs for the Swivels.

 

B.E.

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Martin,

 

the 32 mm Barrel has its Major mass behind the Pivot Point, so it would like to Point upwards with the opening like it should. Leveling out and aiming is done with the wedge, and besides that the upper inner gunport opening Limits the Barrel to Point too much upwards (depends on the size of your port openings).

I put those metal hoops around the carriage wheels, which lifts the Pivot Point a wee bit higher anyhow.

 

Nils

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Hi BE, thanks for joining in.  Actually, what I recall you saying is that you would have used the Syren gun barrels had they been available back when you were working on the guns.  I took that as a slight leaning toward the Syren barrels.  Didn't mean to put words in your mouth.

 

I also ordered some swivel guns from Chuck, but can't remember the dimension off the top of my head.  They're pretty far down the road for me, but but it was convenient to add them to an existing order.  -- I'll also take this opportunity to mention that the simple jig you set up for assembling the carriages is one that I plan to copy. :)

 

Nils -- thanks again for that info.  In looking back through your log, I understand exactly what you've done, and it looks great.  The RB barrels do look exactly right on your build.  I also have to admire the initial mock up of the gun & rigging you did in advance.

 

Cheers,

 

Martin

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Hi Martin, yes I would have ordered some from Chuck had they been available, and I did so later, sometime after I had completed my guns.

 

As it happens, fine as they are I would have come to the conclusion they were not quite right for Pegasus.

 

Here's a comparison photo.

 

IMGP1310.JPG

 

Both the Syren guns are excellent but the 29.9mm looked a little under scale to my eye, mostly in terms of its diameter, and the 37mm one obviously too large.

 

I would suggest you make them up and see how they look as a set on the deck of Fly, such perceptions may then disappear. In reality these guns were quite small, it took me ages to get my head around the fact that the carronades on Pickle were only 2' long.

 

Cheers,

 

B.E.

 

 

 

 

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That photo is quite revealing, BE.  I did notice the difference in diameter, but without your experience couldn't really think of how it mattered or not.  I think you're right that seeing them as a set will help.

 

On a slightly different detail, I have this question:  both you & Alistair attached the GR emblem on the barrel -- did you fabricate that somehow yourself -- and would you mind telling me your secret?  It really makes a nice touch, even at this scale.

 

Cheers,

 

Martin

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Thanks for the picture BE, that's very helpful to see them all side by side.  

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The GR monogram I used was part of a set provided with the Vanguard kit, a friend let me have a few he had spare.

 

However, since that time Dafi has produced some etched GR monograms to suit the Heller 1:100 scale kit.

 

The thought struck me that those suitable for a 32 pounder at 1:100 scale may be suitable for a six pounder at 1:64 scale.

 

There are two sizes provided, and I understand the large ones are 3mm x 2mm.

 

These are far superior to the ones I used which were unclear in definition.

 

Have a look, here's the link.

 

http://www.dafinismus.de/plates_en.html

 

Cheers,

 

B.E.

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Thanks a lot for that, BE.  It's an interesting site that I've never even heard of.  Now if only I can sneak an order in without the Missus finding out.  :rolleyes:

 

Watch this space.

 

Martin

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Hi Martin

The cipher I used is probably even less well defined than B.E's version. I can't remember where I got them. I think Chris Watton chucked them in with the upgrade P.E set he sent me (he sent me a lot of stuff!). Anyway if you don't go down the Dafi route, I have a load of spares and I'm happy to send you enough for the 18 Fly cannons.

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Alistair -- that's very generous, and I thank you.  But I put an order in with Dafi just yesterday -- which is to say that I emailed him with a request for an order, but haven't heard from him.   I think that in the interest of general knowledge at least one of us should use Dafi's ciphers, and I volunteer.

 

Cheers mate,

 

Martin

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Hi Martin, Daniel was kind enough to send me a full scale print of the cyphers so I may check them against the actual guns.

 

IMGP1314.JPG

 

I have not trimmed them too close so they show up better on the guns for demo purposes.

 

On the left the RB 32mm gun: in the centre Chuck's Syren 29mm gun: and on the right the 15mm RB gun: (used for swivels)

 

The larger cyphers will fit both RB and Syren guns, not too small and in fact a better fit on the Syren model which is a fraction smaller in diameter.

 

The small cypher looks to just fit the 15mm RB gun, although I understand Chuck's model is slightly larger so the fit will be easier.

 

As Alistair says the Amati etched cyphers are indistinct to the point that I found it difficult to decide which way up they should be, but it's all a bit academic because the very small size precludes clear detail and the main benefit is that 'something' can be seen where the cypher should be.

 

Daniel's versions are much clearer and the detail can be made out so I think they should do the job for anyone wanting to enhance  their kit guns.

 

B.E.

 

 

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Thanks for that, BE, the photo shows quite a bit of the fit & proportion.  Daniel & I have finally linked up, and the PE sheet of letters & cyphers is speeding even now from Germany to the prairie.  To say I have bated breath don't do it justice -- I'm pretty doggone excited.  Although it is hard to judge precisely from the website, those cyphers are pretty impressive.

 

And last week I ordered a carriage set from Syren just to see how it looked, and I have to say it is nice indeed:  laser cut boxwood, that looks easy to assemble (ahem, at least before I get going), and well proportioned.  Seeing it led me to order some red stain so that I can check out its appearance in proper color. 

 

Now, if only my job would stop interfering, I could get some modelling done!

 

Cheers,

 

Martin

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Hello Martin, 

 

parts are on the way since this morning :-)

 

And very enjoyable build, looking forward to keep up with it!

 

Cheers and thanks, Daniel

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The etch one's that Daniel does are very distinct  all though there for the 1/100 scale.

But as Blue Ensign say's, they may suit the smaller guns.

Hope you get sorted :rolleyes:

 

foxy :piratebo5:

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Hi Foxy and Daniel -- thanks for checking in.  I really am looking forward to seeing the ciphers in actuality, and only hope I can do them justice.

 

Cheers,

 

Martin

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Just a quick and brief update on the guns.  I still haven't actually started on any assembly, but am trying out different options. 

 

First off, here's a comparison between RB gun & carriage with the kit gun & carriage:

 

                           post-1223-0-86323900-1409262573.jpg

 

 

                           post-1223-0-77006700-1409262616.jpg

 

What stands out to me is that on the RB carriage the groove for the trunnion is too far back, well behind the axeltree & trucks, which would have the effect of putting the weight of the barrel over no support.

 

Next, we have Chuck's carriage, unassembled, un-cut out.  This is boxwood, and quite attractive:

 

                            post-1223-0-07824200-1409262798.jpg

So attractive, in fact, that I'm thinking for the first time of abandoning my aspiration to fabricating my own carriages scratch out of the same heartwood I used for the capstan.  To that end, I've gotten ahold of some stains -- not paint -- that might achieve a desirable red without concealing the grain. 

 

Here are the three I'm trying:

 

                             post-1223-0-31942700-1409263022.jpg

From Left to right, we have the heartwood (in a circle) for comparison; then there's "Cranberry," which acquires a pinkness in this photo, but is actually the closest (in tint as well as space) to the heartwood.  Then there's "Mahogany," which it much too brown for my taste.  And finally, "Crimson," which in reality is just about as pink as it looks here.  The Cranberry & the Crimson are both water based -- I think the Mahogany might be as well, but the label has a lot more warnings on it.

 

For a final comparison, here's the Cranberry with two pieces of the heartwood:

 

                              post-1223-0-45577700-1409263321.jpg

I think in this photo the proximity of the stain to the heartwood is clearer.  Plus, you can see how the lovely grain of the boxwood still shows.  On the basis of this experiment, I think I'm going to assemble Chuck's carriage stained, and see how it looks.

 

On a related issue, I set the kit gun & carriage in a gun port, with the strip clamped in place.  By "in place" I mean that I aligned the top of the strip with the tops of the bulkheads. 

 

                               post-1223-0-46696600-1409263598.jpg

Ok, so I'm not going to use the kit's gun, but doesn't it look too high?  should the strip actually be a skosh higher than the bulkheads?

 

Suggestions, opinions?

 

Martin

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The Fly kit guns are indeed a bit snug at the top of the port.   I had toyed with the idea of filing the carriage tops and trunnion slots down a bit but decided that it wasnt necessary at my less precise approach :D.   All the replacement guns are smaller and I dont think the problem exists to any great extent.

 

BE s guns seem to sit at a level round about where I think you want them - you cant go far wrong following his approach !  He used the Pegasus wooden carriages I think which are somewhat lower than the Fly metal ones. I think the Pegasus carriages may be purchasable - and i have a set (less the practice one) unused if anyone wants them.

 

I rejected the Pegasus wooden ones because I was so   fed up with the poor ply they had used ( and I had a spare set of Fly ones) but, as BE as shown, others of more patience may overcome such difficulties

 

It would be a very brave thing to fit the gunport strip higher  since it defines all sorts of other placements .Much easier to adjust the ports a bit.

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Hi Martin

I echo Spy's comments (if I read them right) and add some:

- Fit the gun port patterns to the top of the bulkheads as a first priority.

- Do not adjust them to fit the kit supplied cannons on the basis of a raw fit.

- If you go by the correct fit of the patterns you can adjust the barrel elevation or other elements to get the cannon centred on the gun port.

- Absolute centring of the barrel within the port no longer matters to me. There are too many other elements at play to make this of long term interest!

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Thanks for the advice on the accursed gunport strip, Spy and Alistair, I will definitely follow it.  I think part of the problem, as Spy suggests, is that these metal-cast carriages sit a bit high.  But another problem -- which I think others have mentioned -- is that the ports don't easily line up at a consistent height from the deck.  

 

I also find -- apropos of your suggestion, Alistair, that the barrel can be adjusted -- that these metal carriages are harder to adjust that the wooden carriages that have an actual quoin.

 

Spy, the ply doesn't seem to stain very well -- as I've found out in trying to stain the bulkheads -- since the laminated layers show through.  The ply carriages would have to be painted.  I have nothing against paint, and admire the color schemes that I've seen on other builds (and I also admire your ability to make those metal carriages look good), but in an attempt to make my own build at least somewhat distinctive, I'm trying to avoid the brush when possible.

 

If I can successfully drag myself through this last day of the work week, my hope is to get a Syren carriage set up this evening.

 

Cheers, and Happy Modelling!

 

Martin

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Sorry Ali - my writing gets more obtuse by the day.  I was trying to shout at a car insurer while i was writing can be my only excusefor lack of clarity.

 

The ply issues on Pegasus are such a shame. I really think Amati should review the use of ply and types. As you say its really galling to have ply layers showing where the edges are not going to be capped. Ply i dont think could ever be a sensible choice for gun carriages.

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