Thistle17

And so it goes. With another mast support (any resemblance to a sail is purely coincidental) jig made up of scrap birch plywood I now have a much more stable way to hold the mast while I rig the shrouds and fore stay. I used the main cabin opening to build a mounting platform for the mast vertical support. It can be reversed forward to aft to address support for the main mast when needed. I decided to move ahead while waiting for the shackles and have temporarily tethered the shroud lines and fore stay to the deck ring bolts. The use of the Du-Bro Push-Pull System will allow final tensioning in concert with the built in mast tensioning system. This will also facilitate mast stepping for shipment.

Parts from Harbor Models have been ordered but have yet to arrive. In the mean time I have been trying to come up with a stabilizing jig that will hold the masts when I start the rigging. This "rube goldberg" of a support arm seemed to be a decent solution until I replaced the cut off of fore mast with the full length fore mast. It is unworkable as the model, with mast, sitting on a desk high platform, is over 8 feet tall! This makes for a very unstable mast and an accident waiting to happen. Going back to the drawing board.

Take a look at this image from Wikipedia. You can magnify it. When doing so it appears to be belayed on a boom cleat. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaff_rig#/media/File:Rose_Dorothea-1907-broke_topmast_racing-won_Lipton_Cup.jpg Joe

So Rusty, tell me how you got those 1/2" scale shoes in your opening entry of this post? You are the consummate scale modeler! Joe

I keep ruminating over the transport of the model to its home in the hills surrounding Naples NY. I even measured a cargo van last eve and it only had about 5 feet of head room. So I am convinced now that I have to step the masts and re-rig on site. To that end I have found scale (sort of) turnbuckles for the stays and have found close to scale working shackles that I will use on all stays and shrouds. I have ordered Syren working blocks* to sail hauling and the like. Yes I realize that the wooden blocks were not likely used in this era but the brass ones I ordered just didn't allow an adequate sheave hole. More work for me but the end result will work and be convincing. * In coming to a solution I had to communicate with Syren Ship Model Company about the maximum rigging line I could use with the working blocks I wished to order. In just a few hours I had an answer, my order was placed and shipped. How's that for customer care! It's rare today to see such care of customers! Joe

I have mulled this over from time to time and especially of late with the Atlantis I am finishing for a client. If you follow the thread on this model under RC models you will see it isn't a terribly complex model but has required some "yankee ingenuity" and lots of time. I am only doing it because I really like the people I am working for. Its certainly not the money as I think when it is done I will have earned about $3/hr! Now here is the other end of the spectrum. I know of 2 professional modelers and one has told me his commissions for the museum quality models he turns out range in the 10's of thousands. His clients are business owners and private collectors of means. He is well known to many of us and has been doing this since I first met him in the early 80's. I have to assume he has continued to do so because he can support himself. But those pay checks are such a long way in between. Create these models for the love of it, not the money! Just my opinion. Joe

Masterly work. Its a joy to witness your execution of the model. Joe

Dave we were given quite a revealing presentation about 2 years ago by a modeler who had developed a plan, defined the materials set and wrote the construction manual for a model available on the market today. The creator related that it was an iterative process in which he saw numerous deviations in many aspects of his design. A number of the deviations were with the manufacturing process i.e compromises in parts for whatever reason. He took much heat from the community at large for the deviations. Why do I bring this up? Older kits and their drawings suffer some of the same ills, possibly more. Supposedly prestigious archival drawings and renditions in some repositories have been challenged by researchers. I came across this on my abandoned build of the Corel HMS Unicorn. When a design is reduced to a kit there are so many ways things can get out of wack that it isn't even worth listing them. Presently, I am working on a 1980's era model, a very expensive one, and I am finding drawing errors, omissions and the like. We all have become more astute at this pass time and have imposed higher standards on what we accept as "bible". My advice to you is to establish a datum with the body plan. Let the given dimensional data guide you on what you pick as the reference. Have the drawing scaled to meet those dimensional requirements. Redraw/recreate the profiles to the correct scale if you need. Corel Draw is a handy way to get you there as you can scan in the profiles and manipulate them. Of course there is always the research avenue to aid you in resolution of inconsistencies. Perhaps the Peabody Museum may have some drawings you may avail yourself to as I see a reference on the drawing to East Boston. Joe

I find I have to keep educating myself about rigging practices for more modern vessels. So today I searched the web for halyard belaying practices for example. The first and most obvious thing I was reminded of was that there was no use of pin rails/belaying pins for this era on most vessels. Most vessels had mast or deck cleats and if needed were alternately belayed to rails that were handy. I will ignore the pin rails surrounding both masts and replace all halyard terminations with cleats. It is fortunate that I did not waste the time building the pin rails. So with some trepidation I move forward. Joe

Realized this AM that I may have to address the sails at this point even though I haven't even attempted to step the masts. The fore stay sail is traditionally hoisted on" travelers" up the fore stay as I understand rigging. On the RC version of this model this sail is slipped onto the fore stay as the sail has a "pocket" sewn into it. The same is true of the main stay sail. I have to believe this was a model design decision that deviated from the real life rigging. Otherwise one would have had to unfasten the fore stay to remove the sail. Really! So now I must consider the manufacture of stay travelers to make it appear more realistic. Where oh where do I draw the line? Just as an aside the funny looking sail between the fore and main is called a "fisherman" in some references. The wish bone I have further learned made it easier to haul just the sail and not the gaff (as in a gaff rigged sail). I have further learned that this "boom" could do lots of damage in heavy weather to the main. Seems like a lot of trouble for a bit more effectiveness in light weather. Joe

Finished drilling all mast holes, fore and main, and attaching most of the hardware. Shrouds have been fed up through the mast tops and then returned through companion return holes, leaving a small loop at the mast tops. There is an interesting adjustment mechanism built into the design. The loop formed at the top of each mast by the shroud feeds will be attached to an adjusting screw, threaded follower that will ride up/down the adjusting screw. The screw will stretch/relax the shrouds when adjusted. This is what I am hoping will allow stepping the masts for transport. The next step is to prepare the fore, back and between mast stays. The fore and back will be adjusted with some miniature turnbuckles purchased from Harbor Hobbies of California. I ordered some laser cut brass pulleys from this supply house but I think they will not be used due to the scale. My next approach is to swap out all blocks for Syren "you build" blocks of a better scale. Joe

In thinking about the fore mast extension, of 20 mm more, I thought of several ways to try to fix the problem. Then I had an epiphany! I realized if I took a brass tube of outside diameter slightly larger than the inside diameter of the mast I might be able to squash it down to fit the "tear drop" shape of the mast extrusion. It took several passes in my workbench vise but I managed to make the round brass tube an oval of correct size to achieve a friction fit inside the mast. I then CA glued about 4 inches of the tube into the mast and then press fit the extension onto the exposed brass tube and CA glued that. It made an almost imperceptible joint. Any CA glue that leaked out was cleaned up with lacquer thinner. I think I can live with the outcome since the model is a static model and the mast will always be under compression when the shrouds are attached. Joe

Just completed the jib, fore and main booms (top to bottom view). I ended up cutting up the genoa kit I acquired to get the aluminum material. The booms I had were a different anodize so I chose not to use them. I got to use my recent purchase of a Sherline Vertical Mill to machine all holes and mill of the slot to receive the main boom pivot. While the tasks were basic, I have to say it was a shear joy to perform these simple tasks with the mill. I don't think I would have achieved the accuracy with any other tools in my shop. Those little silver 'cans' on the jib and fore booms actually have a working swivel at the base to support free movement of the sails under RC control. The instructions and drawings continue to slow progress because of omissions. I am marking the drawings up and moving on. My next task is to extend the fore mast. I will have to cosmetically dress the extra 20 mm addition to hide the extension interface but I think it will all turn out in the end.

Welcome to the forum Neil! You will discover a rich fount of knowledge and inspiration here as I have. I personally think this is the best thing that has happened to The Nautical research Guild and model ship building in a long time. Joe

The saga continues! In marking out the masts I discovered that the main is about 20 mm too long and the fore is about that dimension too short! I guess I was so happy to have Krick of Germany support me I never checked the measurements. So now the question is can I get away without some surgery. I am concerned that the sail patterns just won't match the stay and mast outlines and look a bit out of kilter. In a cursory check the foreshortened fore has enough "top" clearance that the 20 mm difference will still handle the sail. Secondly I have decided to completely rig it in my shop and transport it to it's final destination with the masts stepped. I have to travel about 35 miles south of Rochester NY and up the side of a very steep and poor road to its final hill top home. Stepping the masts seems the best alternative. Here is how I plan to move forward. We have a great RC shop in our town and they carry an extensive line of DU-BRO fittings for all type of RC models. I was introduced to what is called "2-56 Push Pull System" that will facilitate shrouds to be made up and then disconnected. The kit comes with crimping sleeves and shrink tubing to dress over the crimps. The kit also comes with nylon coated stainless steel braid of the right diameter as well. For the fore and aft stays I just ordered turnbuckles of the right scale to further enable mast stepping. Some running rigging for the booms will need to be considered (made up and then removed, belayed at site) but should be achievable. In addition, there is a clever mast shroud tightening mechanism built into the kit so I think I can make it all happen.....I hope. The world of RC modeling is a world unto itself. I do have an electronics background but even so there is so much to learn. I am quite relieved that the client wants this to be a static model! Joe

Steve I have had the same experience on my full sized lathe. I was turning a 3/4 birch dowel down to, I hoped, 1/2 inch because I just needed a few inches and it shredded as yours did. I ended up buying the right dowel. When a piece like yours has too much force applied to the element perpendicular to the axis the fibers start to rip. You can try slowing down the drive (drill) and taking much lighter cuts. What I would recommend further is that you try using a file or sanding stick to the right diameter and then turn the shoulder. As for the material I hardly ever use kit stock as it is just not suitable in my judgement. Swiss pear, cherry, maple, mahogany and box turn beautifully. I'd pick one of those. Joe

Chuck the good news is you have created quite a stir in the modeling community with your much sought after works. Sharing your work as you go was more than generous of you. The bad news is that it opens you up to everything from shouts of joy and encouragement to less complimentary feedback. It is in the human DNA and we all have experienced it. Stay the course and know that the vast majority in the community appreciate all you do! Joe

Thanks druxey and all others. I am beginning to think I may actually finish this model on time. I continue to find parts missing and poor, very poor instructions to confound my work. After I work up a sketch on running rigging I will tackle machining the aluminum masts and booms taking into account the RC versus the static rigging differences. I have attached a picture of the ketch I came across that is helping me along. In it is a good picture of the way a wish bone is attached and used. Joe

I don't think I have said this before but the rig on this boat is termed a "wish bone" schooner rig. Being just an arm chair sailor and only exposed to daysailers I had to research the rigging. Wikipedia was a decent reference and start point and there is a wonderful picture of a ketch, wishbone rig. The differences I have to address are the following: Atlantis is a schooner rig, it has a taller main than fore mast and it doesn't include a permanent attachment of the wish bone between masts. On the latter note I am motivated to make the wish bone permanently attached at this point. I am thinking this way as most of what I read describes the wish bone permanently attached and the sail is hoisted up in between the arms. So as a result I am going to sketch a running rigging plan and define tethering points on deck and that will further define a more appropriate fife rail. Joe

I have begun installing deck fittings. At the moment I have installed and secured the fore and aft deck rings for stays (2 port and starboard for each mast. I have also drilled the deck holes for the 28 stanchions. While doing this I began thinking ahead about running rigging and it dawned on me that there is little,if any. I observed that there is no hauling rigging for forward and main sails, there are cleats to be affixed to the mast peak to "dress" the sail taught and secure it. This all makes sense now,as the only sail control meant for the model as an RC build was boom control. I perceive at the moment it should not be a major task to add sufficient running rigging.

Kurt: Chuck should have the last word on this subject as he is obviously a master. But if you would like a basic overview, our model group has developed a primer on our web site on this subject. You will find it under RESOURCES/SHOP NOTES/LASER MACHINING. The site is modelshipwrightguildwny.org. It is by no means a comprehensive treatment but one could get started as the shop note suggests with Corel Draw. You should be aware that some pre-machining file examination, parameter setting and conversion is done by the operator before it is submitted to the laser knife. Hope this helps. I offer this in the spirit of sharing. Joe

Yes the transition from the bearding line to keel is a very gradual slope in the stern area. Make sure you have a very sharp 1/2" chisel and peel, don't gouge from the line downward. I usually scribe the bearding line with a #11 Xacto blade to maintain the boundary definition. With a sharp tool and a gentle but steady touch it is easy to do. At the stem your planks should "dive" into the rabbet. I have been taught to slightly taper the back side of the planks forward of bulkhead 1 to get a good transition. This is especially true when infilling with balsa or bass there. Remember to pre-form the planks so they conform more readily to the curvature. If you can use heat do so to bend. If you use water or ammonia bend the soaked planks and form them on a form or hull and leave to dry overnight. If you don't the wood shrinkage will leave unpleasant gaps when dry. Its more or less an aesthetic thing on the initial planking layer but certainly not on the second layer. Joe

Today in our meeting our Civil War buff introduced us to his next model, a Civil War Mortar Schooner. The vessel he is considering is the CP Williams that housed a single mortar mid deck. In that discussion our host of the Military History Society of Rochester NY introduced us to a fusing "stick" that he related was used as a timed fuse for the actual projectile. In the picture below (sorry for the fuzzy picture) one can clearly see the shaft demarcations representing some time interval. As related, the saw was used to cut the shaft to achieve the burn interval desired. Then this all gets a bit fuzzy for me. Can someone shed further info on exactly how these were used i.e was the ball loaded with gun powder, how did they judge the correct time interval, was the fuse lit by the explosive force of the charge etc.? Secondly all 20 of these vessels were re-purposed schooners and as such there are no drawings in the National Archive. Does anyone have a source of further info on these schooners? Judging from the mass of the mortar certainly some rework of the vessel's backbone had to be considered. Thanks Joe

neillydone: If I understand you correctly all bulkheads are not glued in. If so it should be relatively straight forward to inscribe the bearding line in the stern area. In your photo the lowest "reach" of each bulkhead should be marked. Remove all bulkheads and pencil in a "fair" bearding line as right now it doesn't look so. At this point with the bulkheads removed I would check them with the drawings (a body plan or bulkhead pattern) to see if those in that area correspond. If not I would address the discrepancies by adding in/sanding out the bulkheads to make them meet the bearding line as previously " faired" in. Then I would flat chisel out from the bearding line down to the keel, tapering the excavation so you have near a smooth intersection of the double planks and keel, if needed. Its hard to tell by the picture if the keel stands sufficiently proud of the backbone to accomadate the planking. If it does you can skip the prior comment. In regard to the "fillers in the bow area, a near similar approach would seem to suffice. Once again remove the bulkheads and carve back 13 "fair" with the bow curvature to 14. Now it may be that the pull back of 13 will leave too much of a plank landing area aft of the stem. If so I might be tempted to fill the area where 13 and 14 live with balsa or bass and fair them in to leave a better contour aft of the stem. Hope I didn't lead you astray. Just how I might deal with the problem. Joe

Hard to believe I am finally approaching the end of the deck cabins for Atlantis. They have been mini projects in themselves that never seemed as though there was an end in sight. Fundamentally the deck furniture woodwork is done save the main cabin sky lights and handrails for this and the aft cabin. The body wood is boxwood and the roof and some trim is mahogany. They have been coated with Minwax wiping varnish. The last appointments will be the running lights, air vents and hatch handles. I have not decided how to treat the porthole and cabin "glass" quite yet. I was reading McCaffery's book and he suggests .025 microscope slide glass. Only timidity I have is how do I accurately cut the porthole glass. Secondly the back side has to be opaque as I did not finish the interior of cabins. One final note. I took some stylized liberty with the furniture. Call it aesthetic license or whatever they just looked better to me. Note the "gauges" on the helm (aft cabin). I went on line and found an actual boat panel I liked, then modified it and reduced it to scale. Maybe that is why it has taken me way too long to get to this point!