dafi

Just discovered today and what can I say? What a fathers day present! Most wonderful work and the reason finally to start learning Spanish :-) All the details I am searching in english ships, axinometer, toilet facilities in the heads and quarter galleries, pantry, simply all a model makers heart desires to compare with the already found evidence in the other navies. Thank you for all that work, Daniel

Thank you very much Siggi!!! Wonderful and informative pictures. The interesting picture is this one: White the indicator Green the scale The question about the drum: There should be a small drum with about 3 turns (like the french system) of the steering rope moving the indicator. It is not clearly visible, but it seems that this small drum is not in between the wheel and the post in front (red arrow). Alternatively it could be in the end of the drum (orange arrow). Or was the indicator moved any other way? XXXDAn

Siggi 52 posted a nice picture of the Royal George´s wheel. Thank you loads! Is there a better picture available that shows if there is any attachment or mechanism to be discovered on the model? I.e. the small drum for the rope like in the french version? http://modelshipworld.com/index.php/gallery/image/13690-img-5659/ XXXDAn

Hello Druxey, thank you for the feedback, I do not know if we are talking about the same things. On the front of the deck beam of the poop deck there is the helm indicator, taking about a third of the width of the beam. In the resulting thirds left and right, the 2 black spots could be rings or mere decoration. I was inquiring about the 4 "fair-lead-rollers"-like structures atop of the deck beam incorporated into the base of the rail. @rybakov / Zeh is it possible to post a better resolution of the detail in question? Cheers, Daniel

Thank you Wayne and Robin, all sources are welcome! Always!!! :-) :-) :-) Good thought Mark, but I still do believe that all the equipment, i.e. the weapons already were off board at the moment of the drawing. The most logical reason so far for the guns to be there is for signaling and saluting, still an important issue in those days. I do not believe, that the mysterious "cleats" have something to do with the swivels. Bruce, thank you for the observations. The mysterious wooling could be an after battle fix, other drawings suggest that the fishing of the main mast still was in place at that time, perhaps apart from the swivels being placed in the "free" sections. Turner indicates that the rail was shot away in battle, so the rail´s top part in the drawing should be an after battle replacement. This also in my opinion reduces the chance for the swivels to be a battle fix. XXXDAn

Hy Nick, yes it is the Vic, thank you I added the info in the first entry. Robin: Not only you looked at this picture a thousand times - me too without seeing a lot of details ;-) Turner gives the information, that the rail was shot away, so what we see in the painting is only the base - with the details in question - and the drawing shows the replacement after the battle. Zeh: Thank you for the confirmation, that is the closest guess we have so far, but what purpose? Pat, yes buckets were hanged this area, but usually from different looking hooks Robin, I unfortunately do not have the references you mention, a hint where to get them would be appreciated or where to get the informations concerning the Victory. The guess in my german forum for the 3 swivels so far is that they were for signaling as the rest of the ordonance was already removed as to be seen by the pictures. Nick the "same level" is an optical illusion. I do not think about a single event like a fallen spar as it is shown in two drawings. As for the initial question, the best guess so far are the fair leads or snatch blocks. But what for? Best guess so far on the german side for sauve tête nettings or other temporal fittings. Any other guesses or even hard facts? Cheers and thank you all, Daniel

+++Brandnew+++ Look at Blue Ensign´s wonderful version: #1687 XXXDAn

Wonderful! Thank you! Is there a way to get the pictures of this collection in a higher resolution? XXXDAn

Thank you Anaga, very nice and interesting links! XXXDAn

There are more details to be found here :-) #5 XXXDAn

And on we went immediately to figure out a modeler´s solution. The build was rather simple, a simple slide for an indicator moved by some thin rope to the left and to the right. The pointer was bit itzy bitzy teeny weeny, a 0,3 mm drill into som 0,6 plastic ... ... and the test assembly ... ... and on my tryout model on location :-) Looks smart and ingenious, learnt something new, added a nice detail to all things Victory and beyond and I am happy. Hope you are too :-) Cheers, Dr. dafi

Looked at some sources for more than a hundred times but needed the help of my german forum mates to poke my nose onto this detail and I was able to put the puzzle together. There are some helm indicators shown in NMM one of them on a ship that is quite dear to me ;-) And both shown examples on contemporary models! http://collections.rmg.co.uk/collections/objects/66473.html SLR0512 Scale: 1:60. A model of H.M.S Victory (1765) made entirely in wood that has been painted in realistic colours with metal fittings. The vessel is shown in a launching cradle on a slipway. The hull is painted white below the waterline with a closed black wale above. The remainder of the hull is varnished, and laid in individual planks. There are three gun decks and all the gunports are depicted in an open position, the inner faces of the gunport lids are painted red as are the insides of the gunports themselves. A decorative frieze is painted on a blue ground that runs the entire length of the hull just above main deck level. The figurehead is finely carved depicting George III, allegorical figures and a Union flag on the starboard side. Other bow details include a pair of whisker booms, a pair of catheads, one large admiralty pattern anchor, and one small anchor. The model does not have any masts but instead has three launching flag poles. Foredeck fittings include a bell and belfry, stove chimney, and a forward launching flag pole. The waist has been closed in and four beams support a ship’s boat equipped with a number of red-painted oars. Beneath the boat on the main deck are two sets of gratings. The upper deck fittings include the ship's double wheel painted red, and two companion ways that provide access to the poop deck. The poop deck fittings include a rectangular skylight, launching flag pole, hammock stowage rails, and provision for an ensign jack staff. The stern and quarter galleries, of which two are open, are elaborately carved and painted, and glazed in mica. The launching cradle and slipway is realistically depicted and there are six stabiliser poles attached to the port and starboard stern quarters and the sides of the slipway. Date made Mid-18th century Also to be seen on the Royal George (1756) in NMM, rather small but if one compares to SLR0512 one can see the same thing: http://collections.rmg.co.uk/collections/objects/66297.html SLR0336 Scale: 1:48. A contemporary half full hull and half skeleton model of the Royal George (1756), a first rate, 100-gun three-decker ship of the line, built in the Georgian style. The model is partially decked and has the name Royal George painted on the counter of the stern. The starboard hull shows plank on frame while the port side is unplanked to show the internal construction and layout, including numerous fittings such as galley stoves, capstans and cabin furnishings. Date made circa 1772-77 And the last thing I needed was to be dragged to the detail in the red square on the Turner drawing ... ...

Sometimes research is like a big puzzle, everyone can bring in a piece and suddenly one gets a complete new picture :-) Happend in our german forum, I was in resaerch of a detail on the poop railing and came out with something completely different but nice and surprising. Being pointed from two different friends towards one detail, once to be seen on the contemporary 1765 model of the Vic and once on a Turner sketch after Trafalgar, one could make out something that was most possibly not a mere decoration frieze but a helm indicator! And on we went immediately. The build was rather simple, a simple slide for an indicator moved by some thin rope to the left and to the right. The pointer was bit itzy bitzy teeny weeny, a 0,3 mm drill into som 0,6 plastic ... ... and the test assembly ... ... and on my tryout model on location :-) Looks smart and ingenious, learnt something new, added a nice detail to all things Victory and beyond and I am happy. Hope you are too :-) Cheers, Dr. dafi

Here is a picture out of my own stock of the Warrior´s axiometer :-) The axiometer can be seen on the left side of the drum´s axis. Here are two links to the french Arsenal Forum from the french version: http://5500.forumactif.org/t2176-axiometre#61558 http://5500.forumactif.org/t595p25-model...rre-blanc#19592 http://5500.forumactif.org/t595p400-mode...rre-blanc#77632 Also the different wordings like helm indicator were a good hint :-) Thank you all! And I have some very interesting finds from my german forum, the puzzle is taking form, soon more :-) XXXDAn

There were 6 carronades on the poop from 1780 to 1792. These were not refitted after the great repair. Neither the less the ports could still be "visible" in one way or the other in 1803, if this area was not subject of a complete rebuild. The best guess so far for the swivels is the use as signal/salute guns, as the ship was visibly disarmed when Turner drew it. XXXDAn

Through my quest about the details in Turner´s drawings*** we got into a nice discussion about axiometers in our german forum. Harland mentions one form on the poop deck´s deck beam on top of the wheel, he mentions a contemporary model in the NMM and this is where the information ceases, no luck nowhere, even at google ... Any idea of what model this was and how this axiometer worked? XXXDAn ***http://modelshipworld.com/index.php/topic/13182-thinking-things-through-detail-in-turners-work-on-the-poop-deck-railing/

Some more hints :-) #149 #156 #160 #1011 #1024 #1375 XXXDan PS: The Texas A+M Nautical Archaeology model is imprecise as it shows the messenger hanging straight in mid air! The pulling side is up but the returning side either drags loosely over the deck or hanging from the deck beam. XXXDan

Turner depicted a small detail of Victorys poop deck railing in both a sketch and in one of his paintings. What could this be? A lead? A clamp? A decoration? Thank you, Daniel

At least your version is more seaworthy: No sliding glasses on the side table ;-) XXXDan

The forecastle was rather easy to figure out, a bit more complex the poop is. Again Turner, Livesay and others show a build up bulwark, but how was it constructed? The Trafalgar Companion suggests simple planking hanging on the hammock crane, as sometimes seen on the Jotica builds. The plans and models of the Boyne/Union class - the taste of the art while Vic was rebuild in 1803 show a solid railing, which can be seen on other ships from 1780 onwards. as the Vic carried 6 carronades from 1780 to 1792 on the poop, one could suggest, that this railing was introduced at one point. The model of the Boyne shows this railing with panelling inside, a very nice version :-) http://collections.rmg.co.uk/collections/objects/68233.htmlSLR2274 Als kleines Schmankerl folgt die Positionierung der Pfosten der obsoleten Platzierung der Karronaden. As a small goody I keep the positioning of obsolete the gunport, but also panels them over. Alternatively there also is the version of the railing being paneled flash over, something the sketch of Turner suggests on the damaged starboard poop ladder bulwark. Strange the positioning of the hammock cranes. Were they hanging outside? Or was this a double wooden railing? The last possibility is a build bulk ward as there is at the forecastle, just without ports. Also this version is slightly higher, like the hammock cranes are today. Both Turner and Livesay show clearly by the width that there are hammock cranes present. Those cranes are still missing in the last 3 drafts. So what to think about these options? It stays intriguing ;-) XXXDan

Very nice and sharp build :-) Congratulation ! XXXDan

OK - Deal! ...ähm... ... anybody an idea what is in there? Nelson-brandy? ;-) XXXDAn

The admiralty would kill me if I brought such a monster bottle home ... ;-) XXXDAn

No, I am even NOT taking the flower power sails as reference ;-) XXXDAn

Thank you Jan, Poppy and Frank! @Jan: Worse! XXXDAn