dafi

So I went on to search for different kind of papers and found something from the restoration department :-) Immediately had to try this out - and I never have been that near to what was being encapsulated in my strange brainsalads ... ... the back side was without any crisps ... ... and the transparency was perfect too ... ... and if I still manage to fit the doubling on the front and back sides to to match ... ... and I further on renounce to put two strips of "canvas" atop each other - as to be seen in strip n#6 -... ... yep, then ... ... ...hihihihihihihihi... That is why I immediately did the next test piece. And got the appearence even closer to my aim. The doubling is made a layer thicker as it consists in reality of 4 layers of cloth, not just two. Also I added some copper thread in the seam, even though it will possibly be a bit difficult in a larger sail. Then painted with some diluted wall paper glue dyed very carefully with a mixture of 3 parts light grey and one part yellow ochre :-) Here some shots of the nice play with light, changing appearance from frontal, side and back light Slowly we go :-) ... slowly ... XXXDAn

Ok, time to do some stupid things ... ... I! WANT! ... I! WANT! ... I! WANT! ... ... sails :-) For some time already - actually years - I was cogitating about how to do the sails. For scale reason I do not like the cloth ones as for their too coarse structure, paper ones almost always end up with small crisps and waves from painting. Silk is too transparent. Paper easily gets crisps and tears and rips if formed in a wet state. Cloth is too rigid for my scale to give a realistic fall of the folds, paper is ... Also I wanted to find something more realistic for the usual way of imitating the seams with pencil - or even worse black stitches. In reality the stitches themselves are mostely invisible as they have a similar color to the sail. What one can see is a difference in transparency as the area of the stitches consists of 4-time folded cloth, being almost invisible with light from the front and to be seen as a "shadow" of blocked light if it comes from behind. Could go on for ages lamenting. So I decided to laminate ... (Got the pun?) That is why I wanted to try a unusual test, combining both materials. Cloth with paper glued to both sides, thus giving the better paper structure but using the strength of the cloth within. By using wall paper glue, I aimed in being able to soften up the sail where needed by wetness or steam to be able to form the sail afterwards. One still is young and has dreams ... So on we went, trying out a series of small squares of 5 cm of different cloths and papers and surprisingly this crackpot idea really seemed to be not completely out of this world. So and even further we went, investing in a wedge frame, putting the Silk of pongé 5 - the thinnest I could get - onto it ... ... and evenly spreading the glue. Then ading the thinnest paper I had on both sides. And one sees immediately the problem, the paper gives: the waves and crisps. Got better after drying ... ... the transparency was perfect ... ... but the sidelight revealed the small crisps still being there. Next I tried to glue the seams onto this base which did not work at all, as the paper got soft with the glue ... ... ripping to shreds and proving its unwillingness not to perform straight lines :-(

See, that is why I like Plastic ;-) XXXDAn

Wasn´t that even a crack in the whale, not in the seam?!? XXXDAn

Yes properly done all the details fit together. The twice 7 turns (7 + 3.5 + 3.5) multiplied by the thickness of the drum and the drum´s diameter multiplied by the seven turns should give the helmway. At my Vic it fitted perfectly with the drum´s measures McKay gives :-) I just realised, it wasn´t mentioned yet here. Surprisingly the helmsmen can´t see the indicator - they usually were aware of the position with the help of the master spoke. The helm indicator was meant for the officers of the watch and the sail masters to see if the set sails and the helm correspond well or if the sail arrangement should be altered to ease the helm. XXXDan

Very interesting at this scale :-) XXXDAn

That could very well be as in the book the picture caption describes that the "marines were hiding underneath white hammock cloth until they commenced firing" Thank you. XXXDAn

These are the sketches so far that made me interested: A carriage from Victory showing unusual bolt arrangments List for the use of case shot both shown in Napoleonic Naval Armament 1792-1815 from Ospry His entry for the positions in the fleet on the way into the battle from Victory First Rate, Eastland & Ballantyne Also of interest are informations about Richard F. Roberts, midshipman on the Vic at Trafalgar, showing the setup of the hammocks. Do I read the first 1,5 lines correct? And what are the XXX? "The Victory had white hammock cloth spread loosely over the XXX and kept that (?) XXXX commenced (?) firing. XXXDAn

As already mentioned in my build, I am looking for the sketch-/notebook from Mr. Rivers. He was gunner on the Vic from 1790 to 1812 and excerpts from this book have been already published in some literature. #911 #917 I am looking for this source out of the Royal Naval Museum: William Rivers (1755-1817), gunner on HMS Victory: gunnery notes (Acc 1998/41) Does anybody have any copies of that or know how to access it? XXXDAn

Hello Gary, yes I think, there is much more to unearth :-) In this context, has anybody knowledge how to get hold on Mr. Rivers sketch-/notebook? He was gunner on the Vic from 1790 to 1812 and excerpts have been published in some literature. #911 #917 That is why I am looking for this source out of the Royal Naval Museum: William Rivers (1755-1817), gunner on HMS Victory: gunnery notes (Acc 1998/41) Does anybody have any copies of that or know hoe to access that? XXXDAn

Thank you for your most valuable input Gary. I know both the drawing and John´s immensely interesting analysis. For my personal taste I do not jump yet for the full and solid barricade versus the rail - either as it is seen today or as seen on SLR0513. The drawings are not that clear to me and too, this was a heavily repaired area after the battle. If the barricade was there, I wished too to know how all the belaying points are handled, that are fixed on the rail. But there is still some research to be done about the beakhead-bulkhead rail/barricade, so things stay exciting :-) About the article of John there are very interesting and controversial points in there, things that I love :-) Some of his interpretations of the Turner drawings are very well discovered, with others I am not the same opinion, but it is good for the cause to have different points of view. A big flaw in the argumentation is, that he takes two models in account that NMM labels as "Victory" but I strongly believe them not to be. Look here: http://modelshipworld.com/index.php/topic/6044-wrong-identified-models-of-hms-victory-in-nmm/?hl=slr0513 I do not know, if we are allowed to show the article here, it would be great, as it would nicely light up the discussion :-) Cheers, Daniel PS: Just discovered a nice detail on the drawing: The main stay and preventer stay pass on different sides of the fore mast :-0

Trafalgar Condition? But it will stay thrilling as already since I build this, evidence freshly says that the small gangways to the poop were leveled to the poop deck and therefor the hammock cranes went more forward :-) But all in all, I do believe, one can make something nice out off this old kit :-) XXXDan

Anchors, anchor shoes and buoys

Stern, lanterns, side davits Mast tops Draught marks

Hammock cranes Gun ports Side entry port

The quarter deck The poop deck

The forecastle with the one sided storage of the pikes The waist with the spare spars

The figure head The mariners walk needs some new holes

Thank you Nicolas. I did not come as far as I wanted this year but some minor things were done. Finally I found the time to document the set of my etch and to not make it too boring I made a test shot in two versions: Once the classical "Portsmouth Condition", build already more than a fantastillion times (or at least started) and afterwards a version, that comes nearer to my personal best educated guess of the "real Trafalgar Condition". But anyway, this is only a current score, as more input is always on the way in ... First the "classical" Victory, Portsmouth Condition. Channels First the more sophisticated version with thinned needle heads and broadened channel whales ... ... and the more simple to build version with normal needle heads. The fore channels of the kit are to narrow and should be enlarged for the deadeyes not to collide with the hammock cranes.

Interesting how the copper goes up the bow. Thank you for showing, I wasn´t aware of this model. XXXDAn

Thank you Mark! Very enlightening :-) and makes completely sense. XXXDAn

All the ready made ones have far too big nails - some could be called rivets or even bolts ;-) - - and most of them are to thick too. The best in my opinion so far is the self adhesive copper foil combined with some imprinted nails. I used a small tool based on my wife´s derma roller - please do not tell her, she still is looking for it :-) A german friend used the foil for a larger scale with a self made stamp, the kind o that is often described in the literature. XXXDAn #1099 #1114

So coming back to the mysterious topic of the Turner drawing. Plenty to be found in there, what a joy. We also had a longer fruitful discussion on our german forum, let me resume the findings. First of all we found some better resolutions for the Turner drawing and painting. The same kind of rail can be seen on the painting from Benjamin West from 1806, also showing the swifels and I also believe the fairlead rollers. If he copied from Turner I do not know, but he is reported to have seen 50 survivers of the battle portraying them. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Death_of_Nelson_(West_painting) These are some hints, but still there is a conclusion to be made, here is my personal one. There are some remarkable details on the Turner drawing. But we have to remember one big thing: This is a ship after some emergency repairs after the battle, that could explain some of the "strange" details. First of all the woolings on the mizzen mast, where one could expect iron loops. Her again it could be a jury mast or - as to be seen on other of Turner´s drawings - some fishing to help the injured masts. The binnacle could be either an after battle replacement - as the wheel got shot away, the binnacle could have been too - or an "in ordinairy version" - as the ship is already largely stripped of equipment. The helm indicator shown can also be found on the model from 1765. The last opening underneath the poop is a gunport where there should be a door. But again, the ship clashed against her opponent´s sides and some parts of the galleries were damaged. This too could be a simple emergency fix for security reasons. The hammock cranes of the poop are nicely visible and seem to protrude further forward than today. Some structure appears underneath the ripped (?) canvas on starboard. I do not yet figure out, how solid the bulk-ward in this area was constructed, here it looks like the hammocks are hanging outwards, other drawings do look like a flush outside. But my guess is to see a wooden railing underneath. Can the two bars on the side be part of the sauve tete netting? Also the small gangways are leveled with the quarter deck, and not 2 steps underneath, thus giving more headroom for the guncrews and also being a reason for the hammocks to protrude further forward. And finally the rail. Again, we have a repaired version shown. The upper part was reportedly shot away, also to be seen on the Turner´s painting "as seen from the mizzen mast". The 4 fair-lead rollers could have been used to handle the ropes from the mizzen mast, as the place there was restricted, the access difficult and also the structure reportedly quite weak. So the ropes could be passed onto the quarter deck where they could be handled from more men with more ease. This is also supported by the pair of eyebolts beside each fairlead roller as those could be used to attach some block and tackle to ease the job. Also it includes ropes coming from the center/mast but also from the shrouds area, hence the rollers on both sides. The upper part of the railing is a reconstruction after the battle, but fits other versions of this timeframe. Now come the interesting bit - the swifels. My personal opinion is, that those were just added mere for signaling purposes as all the other guns were already taken out. Essential for those days signaling and no other use to be seen so far. The upper part of the Rail are for stanchions with a wooden bar crossing. Here it could be a replica of the prior battle state (even I would have expected more stanchions for normal use) or it could be a jury fix, replacing the shoot off hammock cranes. I took the artistic license and opted for the hammock cranes, even though not as high as seen today on the Viv in P. :-) This led me to my interpretation of the turner drawing: Still have not decided upon the fire buckets. It is mentioned in the contemporary sources (Steel?) but with the fairleads and the indicator appears to be too much. Anyway I have prepared the holes for the hangers, but those could be closed easily with bit of paint. Other interpretations always welcome! XXXDAn

Just a small feedback from the tinkering corner. Opted for a light colored indicator as a black one like on Royal George was difficult to spot. XXXDan

Thank you Mark, Frank, Jan, Wacko, druxey and Pop, very appreciated! and miracles do happen: Univers gave me a nice X-Mess-presi - some tinkering time :-) A short look back: Some time I discovered on the William Turner drawings from late 1805 some details on the poop deck rails. After some fruitful discussions it proved to be most likely some fair lead rollers that were used for hauling some rope from the poop deck rigging, due to the limited space there and the restricted access. So plenty of men could pull the strings from the quarter deck, with more ease. More here: http://modelshipworld.com/index.php/topic/13182-thinking-things-through-detail-in-turners-work-on-the-poop-deck-railing/ Also the helm indicator was rediscovered on the drawing and also to be seen on the contemporary model from 1765. Reason enough not to omit this one any longer ;-) http://modelshipworld.com/index.php/topic/13202-thinking-things-through-axiometer-or-helm-indicator/ So then off it went :-) First the still missing most upfront deck beam still had to be placed. The white sheet served for positioning. Then some trials to get the proportions of the clamps and rollers correct.. Here in comparison to the Heller Part, that is based upon todays state of the Vic in P. Then slowly getting in touch with the base part of the rail. Clamp and rollers are composed out of several small parts to give a defined form. And then on location. The gaps on the sides will disappear on the final fixing, as the material easily bends in the shape of the curve of the deck. Splashed some paint ... ... and placed in place. XXXDAn