dafi

Robin and Wayne, wonderful team you are :-) In Bruzelius found the passage that Robin cited: http://www.bruzelius.info/Nautica/Signalling/SFI(1775)-2.html Sailing and Fighting Instructions for His Majesty's Fleet. Signals by Day. Distinguishing Lights for the Flags. INSTR. I. The Admiral, who commands the Fleet, is to have three Lights on the Poop, and one on the Main-top. II. The Vice-Admiral, or he who has the Second Post, to have two on his Poop, and one on his Main-top. III. The Rear-Admiral, or he who has the Third Post, one on his Main-top, and one on his Poop. IV. The Vice-Admiral of each Squadron, two on his Poop. V. The Rear-Admiral of each Squadron, one on his Poop: But when the whole Fleet carry their Lights, then the rear-Admiral of each Squadron is to carry two Lights, the one hoisted a Yard above the other, on the Ensign-staff. VI. In Case of foul Weather, and a dark Night, each Ship is to carry a Light. Sailing and Fighting Instructions for His Majesty's Fleet, 1775. Still have to look for the citation in the larger script. Thanks a lot mates, you are wonderful! XXXDAn *rushing off to take his lantern from the fore top to the main* PS: Hope nothing changed compared to 1805 ;-) Any idea if Lavery had a bad information or if his quote was appicable in another time frame?

What does the hint about the stern lanterns mean? The painting shows 3 lanterns, as a Vice Admiral he only would light two at night? Or would one be taken down? As a Rear Admiral, would he light the one in the middle or just one left or right? Cheers, DAniel

Dear Robin, I had no problem to understand the meaning of your exactly 999 post so far and this is more than with some others that have a better spelling ;-) XXXDAn

Thank you Robin! Do you have access to a copy Sailing and Fighting Instructions for His majesty s Fleet 1775, or is it somewhere online available? XXXDAn

Quite a while ago Blue Ensign pointed me to an interesting question. Todays Victory is carrying a lantern in the main top. Lavery points out in Arming and Fitting on page 255 that the position of the lantern follows the rank: Admiral in the main top, Vice Admiral in the fore top and Rear Admiral in the mizzen top. As Nelson was Vice Admiral of the White at Trafalgar, the lantern should be displayed in the fore top to show the correct position at Trafalgar as indicated by Lavery. But apart from Laverys remark I did not found any other mention of this practice, the only reference he gives is the Public Record office Adm 106/2233, 26 Jan 1804, unfortunately unknown to me. Does anybody have access to it? But I just stumbled across another contradicting reference, again, it did not jump into my eye even though I examined the picture laready multiple times. Painting "The 'Victory' Leaving the Channel in 1793" Monamie Swaine, http://collections.rmg.co.uk/collections/objects/15169.html BHC3696 The 'Victory' is shown broadside to port, going down Channel to windward with Rudyerd's Eddystone Lighthouse distantly visible beyond her stern. She is shown flying the flag of Lord Hood as Vice-Admiral of the Red (red at the fore), as she heads outward-bound with her squadron in 1793 for the Mediterranean, where she was Hood's flagship at the Siege of Toulon and the invasion of Corsica. Hood had been promoted to Admiral of the Blue by the time he returned in November 1794, and on the left 'Victory' is shown again, leading the return of his squadron. In the main view 'Victory' also flies a Union jack on her bowsprit and a red ensign, as do other ships of the outward-bound squadron following her. The 'Victory' was floated out of dock at Chatham in 1765 and the picture shows her as built except that she has been coppered. This process first took place in March 1780, when the bottom of the ship below the waterline was sheathed with 3923 sheets of copper to protect her hull against ship-worm. The name 'Victory' is present on the stern. In 1797she was Sir John Jervis's flagship at the Battle of Cape St Vincent and in 1801-03 had a major rebuild at Chatham that enclosed her stern galleries and gave her a new figurehead. She then went to the Mediterranean as Nelson's flagship, up to and including at the Battle of Trafalgar in 1805. Monamy was the son of the better-known Francis Swaine and grandson of the even more famous Peter Monamy, after whom he was named. He was active from about 1769 to 1774 and, if this painting is by him, into the 1790s. As an artist he specialized in still-life and genre, although he exhibited two marine pictures at the Free Society of Artists in 1771 and 1772. Date made circa 1795 Even though Hood was Vice Admiral - correctly displayed with the flag on the fore mast - the lantern is on the main top: That leads me to the question: Does anybody have more information about the regulations of putting the mast top lanterns? Cheers and thanks, Daniel

Wunderherrlich! Marveilleux! XXXDAn

And todays Spanish lesson :-) Thanks to Peregrino for the great work on the documentation of San Juan Nepomuceno http://modelshipworld.com/index.php/topic/13117-spanish-74-gautier-system/#entry407942 See the original here: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/47335803/Nepomuceno_foro.pdf Interessting is the formula e/E=a/A to get the small drum´s diameter. And see the display bolted underneath the deck beam, having the deflection roller incorporated. XXXDAn

And todays Spanish lesson :-) Thanks to Peregrino for the great work on the documentation of San Juan Nepomuceno http://modelshipworld.com/index.php/topic/13117-spanish-74-gautier-system/#entry407942 See the original here: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/47335803/Nepomuceno_foro.pdf Interessting is the formula e/E=a/A to get the small drum´s diameter. And see the display bolted underneath the deck beam, having the deflection roller incorporated. XXXDAn

Just discovered today and what can I say? What a fathers day present! Most wonderful work and the reason finally to start learning Spanish :-) All the details I am searching in english ships, axinometer, toilet facilities in the heads and quarter galleries, pantry, simply all a model makers heart desires to compare with the already found evidence in the other navies. Thank you for all that work, Daniel

Thank you very much Siggi!!! Wonderful and informative pictures. The interesting picture is this one: White the indicator Green the scale The question about the drum: There should be a small drum with about 3 turns (like the french system) of the steering rope moving the indicator. It is not clearly visible, but it seems that this small drum is not in between the wheel and the post in front (red arrow). Alternatively it could be in the end of the drum (orange arrow). Or was the indicator moved any other way? XXXDAn

Siggi 52 posted a nice picture of the Royal George´s wheel. Thank you loads! Is there a better picture available that shows if there is any attachment or mechanism to be discovered on the model? I.e. the small drum for the rope like in the french version? http://modelshipworld.com/index.php/gallery/image/13690-img-5659/ XXXDAn

Hello Druxey, thank you for the feedback, I do not know if we are talking about the same things. On the front of the deck beam of the poop deck there is the helm indicator, taking about a third of the width of the beam. In the resulting thirds left and right, the 2 black spots could be rings or mere decoration. I was inquiring about the 4 "fair-lead-rollers"-like structures atop of the deck beam incorporated into the base of the rail. @rybakov / Zeh is it possible to post a better resolution of the detail in question? Cheers, Daniel

Thank you Wayne and Robin, all sources are welcome! Always!!! :-) :-) :-) Good thought Mark, but I still do believe that all the equipment, i.e. the weapons already were off board at the moment of the drawing. The most logical reason so far for the guns to be there is for signaling and saluting, still an important issue in those days. I do not believe, that the mysterious "cleats" have something to do with the swivels. Bruce, thank you for the observations. The mysterious wooling could be an after battle fix, other drawings suggest that the fishing of the main mast still was in place at that time, perhaps apart from the swivels being placed in the "free" sections. Turner indicates that the rail was shot away in battle, so the rail´s top part in the drawing should be an after battle replacement. This also in my opinion reduces the chance for the swivels to be a battle fix. XXXDAn

Hy Nick, yes it is the Vic, thank you I added the info in the first entry. Robin: Not only you looked at this picture a thousand times - me too without seeing a lot of details ;-) Turner gives the information, that the rail was shot away, so what we see in the painting is only the base - with the details in question - and the drawing shows the replacement after the battle. Zeh: Thank you for the confirmation, that is the closest guess we have so far, but what purpose? Pat, yes buckets were hanged this area, but usually from different looking hooks Robin, I unfortunately do not have the references you mention, a hint where to get them would be appreciated or where to get the informations concerning the Victory. The guess in my german forum for the 3 swivels so far is that they were for signaling as the rest of the ordonance was already removed as to be seen by the pictures. Nick the "same level" is an optical illusion. I do not think about a single event like a fallen spar as it is shown in two drawings. As for the initial question, the best guess so far are the fair leads or snatch blocks. But what for? Best guess so far on the german side for sauve tête nettings or other temporal fittings. Any other guesses or even hard facts? Cheers and thank you all, Daniel

+++Brandnew+++ Look at Blue Ensign´s wonderful version: #1687 XXXDAn

Wonderful! Thank you! Is there a way to get the pictures of this collection in a higher resolution? XXXDAn

Thank you Anaga, very nice and interesting links! XXXDAn

There are more details to be found here :-) #5 XXXDAn

And on we went immediately to figure out a modeler´s solution. The build was rather simple, a simple slide for an indicator moved by some thin rope to the left and to the right. The pointer was bit itzy bitzy teeny weeny, a 0,3 mm drill into som 0,6 plastic ... ... and the test assembly ... ... and on my tryout model on location :-) Looks smart and ingenious, learnt something new, added a nice detail to all things Victory and beyond and I am happy. Hope you are too :-) Cheers, Dr. dafi

Looked at some sources for more than a hundred times but needed the help of my german forum mates to poke my nose onto this detail and I was able to put the puzzle together. There are some helm indicators shown in NMM one of them on a ship that is quite dear to me ;-) And both shown examples on contemporary models! http://collections.rmg.co.uk/collections/objects/66473.html SLR0512 Scale: 1:60. A model of H.M.S Victory (1765) made entirely in wood that has been painted in realistic colours with metal fittings. The vessel is shown in a launching cradle on a slipway. The hull is painted white below the waterline with a closed black wale above. The remainder of the hull is varnished, and laid in individual planks. There are three gun decks and all the gunports are depicted in an open position, the inner faces of the gunport lids are painted red as are the insides of the gunports themselves. A decorative frieze is painted on a blue ground that runs the entire length of the hull just above main deck level. The figurehead is finely carved depicting George III, allegorical figures and a Union flag on the starboard side. Other bow details include a pair of whisker booms, a pair of catheads, one large admiralty pattern anchor, and one small anchor. The model does not have any masts but instead has three launching flag poles. Foredeck fittings include a bell and belfry, stove chimney, and a forward launching flag pole. The waist has been closed in and four beams support a ship’s boat equipped with a number of red-painted oars. Beneath the boat on the main deck are two sets of gratings. The upper deck fittings include the ship's double wheel painted red, and two companion ways that provide access to the poop deck. The poop deck fittings include a rectangular skylight, launching flag pole, hammock stowage rails, and provision for an ensign jack staff. The stern and quarter galleries, of which two are open, are elaborately carved and painted, and glazed in mica. The launching cradle and slipway is realistically depicted and there are six stabiliser poles attached to the port and starboard stern quarters and the sides of the slipway. Date made Mid-18th century Also to be seen on the Royal George (1756) in NMM, rather small but if one compares to SLR0512 one can see the same thing: http://collections.rmg.co.uk/collections/objects/66297.html SLR0336 Scale: 1:48. A contemporary half full hull and half skeleton model of the Royal George (1756), a first rate, 100-gun three-decker ship of the line, built in the Georgian style. The model is partially decked and has the name Royal George painted on the counter of the stern. The starboard hull shows plank on frame while the port side is unplanked to show the internal construction and layout, including numerous fittings such as galley stoves, capstans and cabin furnishings. Date made circa 1772-77 And the last thing I needed was to be dragged to the detail in the red square on the Turner drawing ... ...

Sometimes research is like a big puzzle, everyone can bring in a piece and suddenly one gets a complete new picture :-) Happend in our german forum, I was in resaerch of a detail on the poop railing and came out with something completely different but nice and surprising. Being pointed from two different friends towards one detail, once to be seen on the contemporary 1765 model of the Vic and once on a Turner sketch after Trafalgar, one could make out something that was most possibly not a mere decoration frieze but a helm indicator! And on we went immediately. The build was rather simple, a simple slide for an indicator moved by some thin rope to the left and to the right. The pointer was bit itzy bitzy teeny weeny, a 0,3 mm drill into som 0,6 plastic ... ... and the test assembly ... ... and on my tryout model on location :-) Looks smart and ingenious, learnt something new, added a nice detail to all things Victory and beyond and I am happy. Hope you are too :-) Cheers, Dr. dafi

Here is a picture out of my own stock of the Warrior´s axiometer :-) The axiometer can be seen on the left side of the drum´s axis. Here are two links to the french Arsenal Forum from the french version: http://5500.forumactif.org/t2176-axiometre#61558 http://5500.forumactif.org/t595p25-model...rre-blanc#19592 http://5500.forumactif.org/t595p400-mode...rre-blanc#77632 Also the different wordings like helm indicator were a good hint :-) Thank you all! And I have some very interesting finds from my german forum, the puzzle is taking form, soon more :-) XXXDAn

There were 6 carronades on the poop from 1780 to 1792. These were not refitted after the great repair. Neither the less the ports could still be "visible" in one way or the other in 1803, if this area was not subject of a complete rebuild. The best guess so far for the swivels is the use as signal/salute guns, as the ship was visibly disarmed when Turner drew it. XXXDAn

Through my quest about the details in Turner´s drawings*** we got into a nice discussion about axiometers in our german forum. Harland mentions one form on the poop deck´s deck beam on top of the wheel, he mentions a contemporary model in the NMM and this is where the information ceases, no luck nowhere, even at google ... Any idea of what model this was and how this axiometer worked? XXXDAn ***http://modelshipworld.com/index.php/topic/13182-thinking-things-through-detail-in-turners-work-on-the-poop-deck-railing/

Some more hints :-) #149 #156 #160 #1011 #1024 #1375 XXXDan PS: The Texas A+M Nautical Archaeology model is imprecise as it shows the messenger hanging straight in mid air! The pulling side is up but the returning side either drags loosely over the deck or hanging from the deck beam. XXXDan