Heinrich der Seefahrer

 Hello as I wasn't able to catch the German version at Amazon I yesterday went to the museum to catch it in the shop in there - 😁😁 little literature tip for the BaFC* as we find in where nicely enlarged drawings of mostly T_ransom/G_allion/S_idegallery

POMPEUX 1706/08 (T)

AMBITIEUX 1691 (T/G/S)

BRILLANT 1690 (T/G/S)

PRUDENT 1697 (T/G)

TERRIBLE 1692 (G/S)

FROUDOYANT 1723 (T/G/S)

SOLEIL ROYAL 1669 (T)

SAINT LOUIS 1693 (T/G/S)

Here my favorite - LE TERRIBLE** in all her uglyness:

The side gallery with highly intersting details

Looks harmonic andd friendly from the far...

But the details are awsome...

Horrofic

And sometimes funnyly surreal.

Sadly the transom prospect paper came into lost - so one may reconstruct something iconic...

I personaly thing about a  prototype by Pierre Puget when

everything on the the transom serves only the pair of free standing figures but this is 1669 - the earli 60-70 gun TERRIBLE of 1670 might be the solution as often figurehead and decorational elements swift from the nearly broken/rebuild ship to following names bearer. Puget was from the luxourios Italian baroque school and was narrowed down more and more until. He left the shipyards. 

And for @Hubac's Historian Marc the original LE SOLEIL ROYAL drawing of 1668 from LeBruns hand (?) For his next Heller rebuild

And an important link that shows also the First Navys ships - the English side  standing silent:

https://fr.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liste_des_vaisseaux_français

The book also bears a plenty of information about the development of the Reaissaince into early Baroque to the French Highbaroque and the more floating and light Late/Southgerman Baroque and the Rokokko. (The exhibition is until October 2019 here in Berlin

https://sdtb.de/technikmuseum/ausstellungen/architectura-navalis/

)

*Baroque Fan Club

**to avoid any copyright troubles I took only this sinlgle example extensivly as it is a kind of museums marketing support there will be no problems. 

On 4/17/2019 at 12:43 AM, Hubac's Historian said:

(...)They’ll look even better in ver-de-gris patina; all of SR’s guns were bronze.  And I’m cautiously optimistic that if I get the green wash right, you’ll even be able to see the tiny fleur-de-lis that are moulded onto the barrels.(...)

[Writing from the waitingroom]

Dear Marc,

I am fascinated about your work at the guns and do read your lines repeatedly. 

And I just read about the highprices of copper and the dependence of importing it mainly from abroad into France in "Versailles der Meere" - so I do come back to this very interesting topic of mid of April with some questions onto ordonance:

So as you do build the SOLEIL ROYAL (II) there were some progresses in iron casting so SAINT PHILIPPE has mixed battery. This may reduce the ammount of work to be invested in the decorationaly additives of the irony ordonanece barrels? 

The monography of SP shows clearly the differences in the invest of decoration. Is there some evidence about the complete bronce fitting out of SR that forces you into the fleur and Cote of Arms detailling work?

Does these three deckers lack of 1/2 to 2 pounder swifel guns (littel rifle shaped canons for grape shots placed up on the handrails/bulkwalks posts)?This may be to the factum that the had an proper number marines with musquetes aboard? Or am I used to this feature by later ships permanent influence as my beloved COUREUR? {If you do need the scaled shape of theses riflelooking (in contrast tothe Royal Navy style mini canon barrels) - do not hesitate to ask!}

... and Marc,

at all the problems with the detailing of the decoration...

---just remember you are the lucky guy building the "lesserest" decorated version of the baroque ships of the "rang primeur extraordinare". SR was build after the experience with the overwhelming decoration of ROYAL LOUIS 1668 and DAUPHIN ROYAL 1668 designed by Le Brune. 

A short sight of my survivial from the stroke unit.

The plans of the conpemporary KATE CORY may help in some questions of detailling. The New Bedford Whailing Museum has not got them any longer in their shop. Searching around I think I ordered them and "archivated" them in my pile of rolled plan copies... 

The kits handout is far too expensive at E-boy... and my question is if it may be helpfull at all?

Thanks Marc,

I think there are a pile of discussions to be made - even with those starting SAINT PHILIPPE as a 1/24 scratch project. Sometimes I do think I want too much to of this old Heller kit. Am I overstreching its abilities?

I amv still thinking about solutions. There are a plenty of thinks I could start to do. But I have to install the planked decks first - before starting the shells' planking  . This due to stability reasons . Also it is nonsense to start the fiddely work of the transoms inside work before the hull is planked. But my bigges graft in the number of these bottlenecks

are the decks -

in particular the LD. And I do not want to trimm them in anyway untill I am shure it's

the dreck that is wrong and not me.

@Roger Pellett Thanks Roger for your help,  his tanning was a crictical optical point. 

The Model Shipwright N°92 of June 1992 came to me with an article by Peter Rogers about his 1/30 RC-Model of AGATE starting at p.8 and at p.28 a nice Bedford Beetle Whaleboat at 1/24 gives additivly to the Ronnberg information about the detailing.

Here the lovely detailing of some of the decks furniture ready to sail.

Nothing big to tell just enlarged the

Chapelle planset up to 1/32 due to measurement issues.

And I do think about some kind of "double-muck-up-model". A pure deck model in the some size to deal with the decks detailling and do do some precise furniture work with some possibility of variations.

On 5/12/2019 at 8:10 AM, mtaylor said:

Christian, 

That should indeed be the deck line for the top of the deck.

So it is the top of the deck all along the side. Okay that makes sence in this drawing. Thank you very much.

On 5/10/2019 at 12:27 AM, Jim Lad said:

Exactly which line are you talking about, Heinrich?

 

John

@Jim Lad

Hy John - and here I do come to the problems of translation textes. But drawings are very polyglot.

It is about the correlation of these two lines on the very right side it  is the "Underside of the Deck at side"  - to quote H.I.Chapelle - on  the left side it is my guess theat these is the same line.

Here in front...

...and aft view yellow ligthed..

and the two points - I do hope belong together. Is this possible?

Thanks for your patiente.

S-Line missing?

Great work, Marc!!! Wonderful colouring of the wood. The nailing is also well visible. tharyt is some very ggood sign. So you did not show the enlarged/massed planking usualy placed at the bow where the ancre is swinging. At SOLEIL ROYAL there were no

doubled layers of planking on the stem to protect the planking due to damage by ancre puties? Have yoyu gote some information about this characteristic detail - let us call it S-line.

Here you can see the double planking visiable at the aestetic curve as printed on p.154 in the monography of SAINT PHILIPPE we both do use.

But suddenly there is an annoying flickering detail!

But I thought I could do something good to you, Marc, and picture this detail for you from the 1/48 plan (also to recycle this intersting aesthetic discovery on my SP, too.) IYou would just have to cut some 0.5mm sheets to plankes and give the the right shape and ending, glueing it into place, painting it black... 

...and Bob is your uncle! 

And so I did run into a mass and so now some heavy criticism about the $250 - Ance plan set!!! I am completely confused about this very nice looking detail... 

...because...

...it is "flickering".

In the monography book it is clearly visible as print of plan sheet N°36 detail. But if you look on the 1/48

real plan N°36 sheet the beautifully S-line isn't to see on there...😨

So on plan let us have some look on the same region around former Av.VI on plan several sheets will show it to us! Letsstart with the most aestaeticaesthetic one. What is sheet N° 34 - hull with complete decoration - it is 

also damned silent in there about this detail.

There must be a sign of this in the

cut drawing at Av. VI  as it runs through the MD gunport N°1. So there has had to be some evidence about any doubleplanking. But also there is nothing to see. 

This looks very much like some kind of doubleplanking (usually black painted to do some easy optical repair by black paint) it does only appear

once in plan sheet N°45 (sailplan 1/96) on the LD level - not on the MD tiers planking - partlyhidden by the ancre. And that is all - nowhere else in the rest of the 1/48 drawings these S-line is to be recognized. This was my very first impression.

And so I have gone

- conscientious

- slowly

- intend

- pedantic

through my hole set of plans this morning. And I did hope for a place where it has had to be drawn in...in the planking and nailing plan  N°33 it certainly should appear...

As you do see in here - you do not see anything! But for some reason there is no S-Line.

And so I do think the doubleplanking S-line is placed in the reduced drawings for the book and the sailplan what were drawn very late. And the effect of this line isn't brought in all the other side drawings and cut drawings.

Has anyone any idea or even some better guessing?

Hello Ryan,

that looks great! I bought the book to the kit several years ago... And due to my 1/64 AGATE project I'm looking for building solutions for whaleboats - but it looks like I'll need some electronic microscope at 1/4 of your size.

So hopefully I could encourage you to show us some progress.

Whaleboats are such beautyfull pices of craftmanship and seafarers experience. And without without some very few examples the allvanished away with declining of the fair play whailing (half the sighted whales escaped). The were substituted by steam whaling cutters, sonar and the ugly whaling factory ships.

So carry on and keep building! 

As the line ends up

here in the transoms corner I have got no idea what line this is - do you have got?

As I think about a caputred sperm whale beside the model as some kind of scale I looked around and found impressive lengths

up to 90ft some 28m for the Moby Dick - but even the Mocha Dick sinking the ESSEX in 1847 was a monstrous 70ft long whale. Something like this is nearly as long as and would on the fluke chain list the AGATE keel up or making the masts to break (through mastfoot and keel?). 

So some smaller 50-60ft long whale will do the job.

Hello, thise days not too much happend:

A bit of historical research

besides my email to the Provincetown Historical Bureau with a little pile of questions. Who owned the AGATE? Do wo know anything about this company's painting sheme or jtheir hauseflag? And some other questions about the whaling history of Provincetown. 

Something ideas about sails

So here a little physical step forward. Some copied patchwork to get some feeling for the size of the model 

and the first scetch of the colours. My idea was by colouring  of the sails to point out "This is a two masted ship"  and to avoiding your eyes to lost not a mess of brown sails over a black hull. The paining of the wales and planks in verdigris is pure guesswork to give some spot of colour onto the black hull.

I found some wonderful painting at the "electric bay" to get some reference colour to the sails red.

William Bradford, Whaler and Fishing vessels near an iceberg 

He does give us some idea of brown but not red bown sails. But is my idea realistic to do so? And is this done in a historically correct way?

Hekllo colleagues! So today I worked a bit on the bulkheads and the maindeck's stucture in the 

Chapelle-drawing:

Here ist the Underside of the Deck at side - were the topside of the

Decks plywood board is. (Here the drawing from the Mondfeld book of a decks plywood board.) Due to this

the centerboard has to be cut smaller by subtracting the decks planks and the plywoods thickness. Okay I've got it.

But at the outside thinks look different!

Is this green marked line from the transoms edge to the )0(  the Underside of Deck at side again? Or is it a differend kind of line? As it might be decks topside, waterways topside, or s.th. else I cannot guess.  

And as this dashed line also the same line towards the stem, I have to figure the stanchions to keep the one layer planking in shape. But can I really use

this green marked structures as my reference for the stanchions size? Here were the grooves seen long the side shown on the Mondfelds drawing.

The right size of the centerboard and of the bulkheads depends on the planning made here - due to this I do ask instead of running against a wall at the very start of AGATE. I can saw off a millimeter - but if it is gone but essentially needed thinks get worse. 

Thanks for your patience.

B.t.w.: It is a complete other kind of thinking than with SAINT PHILIPPE were I have to join some annangement with the given kit. Both fun but from completly different kind of challenging.

That looks very interesting - whit some impressive progress. Could you kindly thell me what set of plans do you use?

Hello! So in my second week of illness after the doctor will press me into bed again I managed to escape for a few minutes to my copyshop resizing by 75% copying

all the 1/48 drawings down to 1/64 - not to die by boringness. (Btw: My health insurances deny to pay this bill... ...penny-pinchers!)

The reason for this is a typical space/model-kind question:

The 1/64 fully rigged model will fit on a standard Ivar shelfboard...

...the 1/48 sized model will only allow for a hull model and then a 1/36 or 1/32 scaled hull model might be the better choice as it fits completly the given space.

I cut out the center board and glued it on the plywood. Next will be the grooves for the

bulkheads - on weekend I do hope to be able to cut both out.

The 28-ft NewBedford whaleboats are scaled down into 1/64 only 133,35mm long - and I do think about planking them in the plastic way. There is a huge amount of brainwork to be done on these tiny boats their interior, how to get the lances, harpunes, buckets, all these odds and details build.

The detail drawings are also copied and give something to think about how to build. 

Sorry but as I do write on my old smartphone I am unable to shift/pull the pictures in a direction as I like to get them.

And as my girlfriend is interested in my building the AGATE, too - I made some copies more. Hopfully this will help her to decide...

...to join the dark side of modelbuilding warships and whalers and how to build her first modelship at all.

So I credenced today to her

A.B.C.Whipple's book "The Whalers" to yhe most of us well known from the old Seafarer Series that ignited my mind to modelshipbuilding 42 years ago... 

So sorry for my slow progress.

Thanks Keith and Jim for the encouragement! The schooner is a very nice rigg. Did anybody of you know if theses whalers do wear redbrown sails (without the jibs) of an oceangoing workhorse? Or is it realistic to keep them in the shorter surviving light tan looking more romantic? 

As some example Thames sailing barge WYVENHOE of London - the sails seem to be of nylon due to their glossy surface.

To get the sailplan into a workable condition I'll have to do some tricks with the book in the copyshop. The masts, gaffeltree and blocks lengths ans sizes will hopefully be able to taken out by a pair of compasses. I am absolutely unfamiliar to the spreadsheets and what they do tell me.

Thanks EJ_L for you kind words...

I am still on track and will look what is going on to get morgee satifying progress from her.

9 minutes ago, Roger Pellett said:

An interesting project, Heinrich, i’m Looking forward to following it.

 

Roger

Thanks for the interest, Roger, and take you a seat on the aft'deck!

4 hours ago, Heinrich der Seefahrer said:

 

As there are no plans of ESSEX sunken by a whale... I decided fore some simpler ship design.

Notice to myself:

There is no sign of some

iron eight for the lookout in the main mast... donot forget this characteristic detail.

21 minutes ago, druxey said:

Oh, my! It seems (and this may be total heresy) easier to start a scratch built hull than wrestle the plastic kit to the ground! My sympathy at your dilemma, HH.

There is some graph of benefits of scratch and kit building and the seem to cross each othe right now.

But I am not willing to stop that kit rebuild just aggressive and frustrated.

Dear friends, 

The Whaling Schooner AGATE is a motivation project that will give some successfully moments to me. Whalers are an other side of my intrests hidden to public as it is no good for your career to stay too close to this blood soaken side of shipbuilding in the eyes of a TV-educated population.

That is what she will look like.

I'm not completely shure with my choice of scale and may alter it to 1:64.

The Ship is an ordinary schooner of the mid-fifties. Some quite little whaler  with her four boats. 

The boats will be a chapter of its own.

Our sources are very simple as these are two:

Howard Irving Chapelle 

American Fishing Schooners p.80. She appears in this book as she is relatived to the Grand Banks Schooners.

Chapelle gives a fine set of drawings to us - telling us she was built for whaling especially. Traditionally she was the last vessel of large size (Lpp 74"-10' 1/2) built at Essex/Mass. built from local white oak and pine.

V.R.Grimwood tells us in American shipmodels and how to build them

some quite simpler drawing - but added some

transom

and stem decor to us plus details of the galion. There are added

some details for the rigging

...and hull,too.

Also the cutting station is drawn in detail.

Trypots and deck furniture is also passed over to us.

These were all my sourcrs and I think about the scale changing to 1/64 sceptical because of the built of the whaling boats. On the otherhand why not to try it out by plastic stripes planking?

Hopefully AGATE of Privincetown brings me back to some good mood.

EDIT:

I due to the legth of the rigged model of 23 1/2inch or 588mm and nearly 22inch or 550mm tall at 1/64 I decided to reduce the scale factor down by 25% so the model will fit to an usual book shelf.