Heinrich der Seefahrer

Hello what a great work so far. Wolfram zu Mondfeld recommended to clean the coppering with a kind of benzol wash (I donnot know the exact English - ask at you local drugstore so the superglue isn't effected by the cleaning!) So with this it would be possible to clean away all the fingerprints and than handling the hull per rubber glooves - to spray over the copper a row of layers of clear colour. After some years you do get the right warm and nice copper red tone - but be precisely with the cleaning!!! For the FBI 

guys standung beside your showcase it will be of highest  intrest to catch any good fingerprint under the clear firnis!!!

 

Please do not forget the prepare drillings for the adding of the (blank wooden) "wrong keel" under the right keel and copper plating. I have got no idea what the way of fixing was like in the USCG - but there must be some information at Chapelles THE AMERICAN SAILING NAVY or at AMERICAN SAILING SHIPS to this topic - together with the HISTORICAL MODELSHIP book of Wolfram zu Mondfeld three high recommended books (-> low price used ones at Ebay) to read to get some further information. So you will swim free from the Bluejacket instruction and enter the ocean of information to become a historical modelshipbuilder.

Perhaps Alexa can read this for you on your job's journey in the car  *

 

Nice to see you doing the right overlapping of the copper plates. Thanks for sharing and stay model building!

 

______

*Me personally you can distinguish on an international airport by a pile of books under the arm lashed together by some old worn out belt and some muleskin notebooks within; for secutity I have allways to open this pile and you allways have the chance to bring some friendly interruption into their dayly live - some of them took a smartphone shot of the titels. So modelshipbuilding is an epidemic! 

 

 

Such a nice snd motivating project - uou do good with the modelbuilding youth. Bringung them away from smart phones and the dangers of "digital demencia". Great job.

 

In der Broschüre befindet sich eine S-Linie, die falsch eingefügt ist. Es fehlt in den Plänen - hier der Auszug aus meinem Baubericht:

 

Ich komme also auf die S-Kurven-Frage zurück, die im Buch auf Seite 154 behandelt wird. Diese S-Heilung wurde versehentlich in das Buch aufgenommen. Hier die Email von ancre.fr:

 

Ahhh yes that is a very interestin point, guys!!

 

The most distinguishing feature are the FIVE lamps - te last two on the littel turret roofs of the side galerys tree above the couronnament. So an misinterpretation of the 1669 as the 1723 version is nearly not impossible. (its a bit like the OLYMPIC class beinf cusfused with the theren KAISER WILHELM DER GROSSE four funnel greyhounds of the atlantic - if you have figured out the bigger gap between the 2nd and 3rd funnel so it is no doubt any longer!) And in our 350 year older case -  the very simpelest part that makes the 1735 standing appart from the 1667 precedessor is the complete absence of any columns in transom and side galerys also if there are no lamps laced on the model or plans drawing.

 

The transom of the 1667 DR is a classical pice of early Louis XIV. style - while the 1735 comes very much closer to the heavier high baroque and in first sebtences into the very early rokkoko. There is one russian set of plans that is wrongly named - so search for the five lamps, columns and if the are not in your plan it is not the 1667 DAUPHIN ROYAL it may be some later refit due to the very heavy wight of the oak decoration.

 

From time to time I'll pass by here and add some (electron)microscopic progress - sorry for this but I do have to focus myself.

 

. 

11 hours ago, Hubac's Historian said:

Hi Heinrich! Yes, actually, I was hoping to re-cycle the ornament from the lower sill of the main deck ports, which isn’t quite as arched as the header ornament that (I think  ) you are referring to.

 

Any time savings will be a huge benefit.  Thank you for looking in, and as always, for your insight.  Floating Baroque is now one of my most treasured library resources!  Thank you for bringing it to my attention!

Hy Marc,

 

no case for a thank you... ...we all our "pipeline kind of view" so we often let possibilities passing by if we aren't remembered. (A stroke froceturns your face directly into this direction.)

 

The question is - can't you "reform" it from some surplus parts and add the rest by using MagicSculp? (Some kind of partly recycling?) And what kind of decor parts doese appear more often so it is of interest to build a mould? For the 30 gunports a mould was clearly a matter of intrest - but if these pattern does only appear four times the mould desingn will be more timeconsuming than the short run serie. Ore are those also on the galion or transom? What do you know about the stateroom - may it be possible to reuse spome of this parts in there?

 

I think the best thing working with transparent paper is the possibilty to toun it over and use the inversed side for the port sidegallery - so the inner shift of the copied paper by mirrowing isn't a trouble to think about. (and to save the lead and ink on the transparentpaper you might try usual hairspray in thin layers (give the a resting time of 2 hours before spray the surface again - best is to test before. I'm complety shocked a bout the waves on my paper doing it wrong once.) 

 

 

 

 

 

Yes Marc, that do look great!!!

 

Thanks for sharing this steps of construction progress with us.

 

 

Isn't this deoration part surrounding this cartushe in the middle below the lyra (drawn with ink in this early stage of the work)

 

the very same decorational element part you already built a mould for for the upper decks decoration above the 18-pounder gunports

 

(here to be seen)? If they to fit - so there migth be a shortened way to the side galleries decoration?

P.S.: I got some answer from the archiv of Provincetown and will show these results in here later. Sadly till now I didn't find any compagny colours or something like this. The most important information was the name of the "agent/owner" from 1877 to 1891: William A. Atkins. Several Atkins were captains aboard (members of the family?) and there is the intersting publication "Wooden Ships and Iron Men" where several details occure: http://www.provincetownhistoryproject.com/PDF/mun_001_852-wooden-ships-and-iron-men.pdf  So there may have been anything like an "Atkins Whailing Company"? 

 

 

 

 

Hello friends of the AGATE, as I am after a stroke in rehabilitation hospital I drcuded to focus on only three projects. Three due to the fact that I need to close unfinished businesses and leave stress behind. 

So I voted AGATE as one/third of the trio the other is SAINT PHILIPPE and a "single short term project (SSTP)" - not allways some swimming object.

 

What I do hope for is some of your well balanced criticism on my reconstruction work of the schooners galley; as I was leaving behind my main souces Grimwood and Chapelle. So please let me know your opinions.

 

I.Galley detailing:

The AGATE has a plenty of traps in the several drawings I found in the books of H.I.Chapelle and V.R.Grimwood.

 

So I started with the galley and enlarged it due to easier drawingwork up to 1/32. 

 

Here the galley highlighted in green on the more trustfull and detailled Chapelle drawing. My only doubt I noticed on this "doodling copy" was the doors position and the fact that Chapelle set the hinges aft - so the door opens to the stem.

 

So I changed this into a sliding door as seen in Church's book on board of J.R.MANTA and is a babour scene in the background. 

 

This I my working space and drawing material in my little room. Without any lamp I am only able to draw at daylight.

 

As the arch of the deck I am unable to daw properly I used the tree point method - and didn'd draw the aft-wall as it is exactly the same. On the left you can see the slidingdoor's stopper pattern (HdS-design - still looking for some historical sources) and the roofs' framing. The portside is drawn with wood panels.

 

These panels in detail in here ant the position of the bulkheads below.

The roof framing enlarged up to 1/16 with the 1/64 measurements.

 

II. Hull planing:

By the way I do think about the hull. 

When I add three longitudinal bulkheads to the bow I hope to get some finer lones with better details.

Following the lines to the first four bulkheads.

Here my pair of inversed copys I do work with on my smartphone.

 

That is it fpr now folks! Further news from my little shipyard next week.

 

Take care!

 

Thanks @EJ_L

That was very interesting and RL1668 was really very short before the kings visit in 1669/70. So a door is at hand... I dont think the king would like to enter his levante ship over some rope ladder - on some galley I saw a stairway hanging down on some easy and aesthetic mechanism to rise it easily.

 

I will have a look on the items you figured out. As I am in hospital without my naval libary I do feel quite uninformed or ill from some kind of stupidity...

 

 

 

 

 

 

Ues it looks like this it might be a later rebuild (not the right literature at hand) of the 1668 DR but it is definetly an other transom.

 

The coloured drawing is full of errors - the cote of arms of the Dauphine was "simplified" into a simple face.

 

If you sroll upwards you will see tha the coloured CoA is here with a simplified necklage if you compare with the books frontage printing in gold - the crown is not as detailed as on the red leather.

 

 

The nice artwork on the balconies was changed to something rude... looking like letters or something else that is uninterpretable. The colouring is nice but I think the figures were not pained in skincolour but golden... or as at SR1689 in an as expensive blue from lapis latsuli. 

 

Beside this the knight ordes necklages must be different between those around thekings and the dauphin's one - as the king was the founder.  So the necklages will have to be made with high precession and also in the same moment had to look like craved from wood and painted. 

But the do give the golden balkonies some very colourful spots in the fine structured golden railguards. And I have to admit that I do not like the kings cote of arms blue - it looks likes some cheap textmarker! 

 

Ii didn'thave started some drawings of DR1668 but I think beside SP she is the most interesting project and due to her transoms immense size (the waterlinemodel of the transom will  be some yard high!) a good training ground totoandr the baroque transom at all and boot camp for some worktechnical testings in particular.

 

 

 

 

Here the Rochefort DAUPHIN ROYALE of 1668 models pictures:

 

 

I'm a bit astonished about the side gallery - there is no fist third if and eightsided turret as we would espect from the

transoms drawing...

here the seperated laterns on the turret roofs top are better to see.

So the Rochefortmodel might a rebuilded later appearance of the hull?

 

The cote of arms is

 

here in baroque luxuarity

 

So a little bit of progress was made also in here.

 

Hope you like it...

 

Stay shipmodelling, guys!

 

 

Hy Marc, thanks for your support. I am still in doubt - do to the LE GRAND MONARQUE / ROYAL LOUIS. There are several arguments I'd like to point out. 

 

LE GRAND MONARQUE / ROYAL LOUIS:

aa.

Most German authors (Richenbach, Priesterjahn et altera, ect.) reffering the Great Monarque as a synonym for the ROYAL LOUIS 1668 - as there was no ship with this name in the lists. I have not got my Richfield book about the 1st and 2nd French Navy with me - so I have to ask you to figure out if the RL1668 has a contemporary ship names LE GRAND MONARQUE of the 2eme or 3eme rang. 

 

 

ab.

I don't think there were two ships with a clear copy of the others  transom: the Thetis and Neptun on the very edges giving a soft shift from the boradside towards the transom.

 

ac.

Very intersting for me is this characteristc quartett of atlants in a row longing over two decks, that only on the Le Brun conceptional drawing is missing.*

 

ad.

All the ships drawings does show a open guardrail with out any enclosed side gallery. Three curved Tritons bracing the UD balcony.

 

DOOR / LADDER:

ba.

The door is an interesting fact - as in Dafis wounderful thread "Victory ....and beyond" in the German text we discussed ethe development of adminals entrances was examined with great care. So I remenber there were several solutions from the H.M.S. MORDAUNT onwarts. Doors cut into two by a saw groove horicontaly (as a horse door) in particular when the door was used as a gunport also. The pure entrance doors were cut in the middle perpendicular in half.

 

bb.

The ladder started on the lower transom as a rope ladder for the ordonary seamaen and along the board side for officers and captains. To shorten this painful journey to the often quite old and rickety admirals entrance doors were established by cutting out the gunports downwards. The doors could not be too deep in the tiers due to leckage matters an you wrote, Marc.

 

bc.

The early entrances hat a small grating with two rail guards and an open side towards aft. but also there seems to bee a rope ladder before a wooden row of stairs was stablished. This were always with a finger groove in the middle between boardsside and stair to be able to climb up and downwards. 

 

bcc.

 

These wooden stairs were allways parallel towards the CWL said Mondfeld.

And here the proof on the original model of H.M.S. MORDAUNT 1680

 

 

one of the oldest ships with stairs on his side we know is H.M.S. PRINCE. (here the 1672 dated shipyards model from Sience Museum in Kensington). When deas these feature reaches the coasts sides of France?

 

 

On the both sides of ROYAL LOUIS we do miss this feature - okay it is a later rebuild not an original ship yard model.

 

 

 

  the LE DAUPHINE ROYAL 1668 does have this feature of a

 

narrow "stairladder" on its contemporary hullmodel at Rochefort

 

 

As with very much what is single and unique** on the ROYAL LOUIS 1668 this admirals antrance may have been there, too.

So what do you think?

 

_______

*It may be i.m.h.o. they were added by the strong artique influence and sculptural genius of Pierre Puget - so that he would stay at Toulon and doesn't went back to Rome where he has had his wealthy life he left due to the possibility to work at Toulon. In Toulon the dockyards leadership and Le Brun took a lot of influence onto his work and curtails his creativity due to ships stability sapects. InLoui Le Roux d'Infrevill worote to Paris: "If he (Pierre Puget) woud get influence on the ships decoration the hole will be ruined."  Also the heavy wight of the figural ornamentation made inforcements of the inner structure inevitable.

 

**

"I AM UNIQUE OVER THE THE WAVES

AND MY KING IS IT IN THE WORLD"

devise plate mounted on the mizzen mast.

 

Hello friends of the ROYAL LOUIS,

 

ther is a double problem with a drawing of Pierre Puget...

 

I. Mirrowed drawing?

it is mirrowed. The trident of the Neptun is suddenly oh the Starboard side!

 

On all other drawings we do find him on the port side... (as it is of no use to repeat all the pictures uploaded as a doublette again, I ask you kindly to scroll upwards a bit.)

 

But what is more interesting than this is the DOOR! Yes - there is an admirals entrance on the gunport leading towards the mainmast in the upper deck -

 

the rope of the mainsail makes the indentification so complex. This as it camoflaged the door with the wale. And if this is the admirals entrance it has to be on the starbord side - so I did always learn.

 

Hmmm so the Neptun is on the "wrong side" so the picture is mirrowed. Is this the drawing for an engraving palte - that was lost or never realised? I dont know but what do our historians say?

 

I have asked at the Albertina at vienna fo a reprint of the drawing yesterday, to be able to enlarge it in the copyshop easier.

 

II. Guns number...

 

When counting right - on the starboard side I get 44 guns (if I take any shadow on the bow as a gunportlid with gunbarrel.)

 

"So we do get 88 pieces of ordonace at all!"

 

but all the list tell us about 100 to 104 barrels. So what is wrong in here?

Even in the Hayet drawing we do finf 48 guns per side (if we add the 2 under the transom as an additive pair of ordonance) it will be a summ of 100... no barrel more. So the swifle guns may be to add to get 104 barrels by being tricky??? (Also here the Neptun is on the portside of the transom.)

 

III. nearly interesting story told by the way:

The LD bears firstly 28 pieces of fourtyeight (48!) pounder bronze guns - being so heavy that they were unsuable (eating too much payload?) very fast given away to the coastal ordonance to be replaced by usual 32 pdfs. 

 

 

15 hours ago, Hubac's Historian said:

If necessary, I will make resin castings of whichever gratings I am missing.  I am only reluctant to do so because the resin and styrene only form a mechanical bond.

 

(...)

Perhaps Locktite Superglue, Pattex or a two-component-glue may work. I was very happy with my even very cheap superglue to connect the resine engines with the biplanes plastic fuselage sockets - okay... after sanding points of contct with an 800 - 1200 grain -  and so smoothing the connection areas surfaces on both sides. 

 

Hope this helps!

Hy ragove! What do you think about filling blocks of softwood between the bulkheads (as they will give a much larger surface to you to sand and gluing onthe next two layers)???

Hello lazy Saint, great start. For the filling you may use any cheap softwood you can lay your hands on. There are restboxes in German diy-markets to pick up cheap wood from there.  Or ask at a building ground if the workes do give their cutoffs for a bottle of beer... any kind of  pine or some other soft wood. 

 

 

But please use ONE KIND OF WOOD only in your kit, as differend wood is differend to sand so a smooth surface is a more complex job to get. 

 

You are on a good track with this kit. What litrature do you use? 

Thanks Phil and druxey - I was lucky... a friend of mine said that sounds like a stroke hurry into the emergency room of a hostital and not to your eye-doctor... it was at the very end of the spinalcanal. So I'm happy to lie here and being able to draw and write.

 

But now it is going towards the LE TERRIBLE again. As I tried to  begin at the very top over the bars between the lamps I decided to combine two given elements. The catfish(?) and the dragoon.

 

 

 

 

Hy Marc, perchance the gratings being cast fromnresine may be some possibility, ad they do follow eachother in the same shape over all the decks middel openings/hatches. The bent stairs are my pure hoorortrip at the moment... (I simply enlaged them from the 1/144 plans in the SP-brochure.)

Also by this I know the parallelism of the gratings of SP - are these also at SRmodel in the Paris marine museum???

Here the drawings of the side gallery of LE TERRIBLE I am not a defeatist saying it is not my brst work being done on transparent paper.

This is the prominent monster over the windowss top. 

 

Here drawn though the transparentpaper 

The ugly result - not really happy with this.

 

The hole work in progress. 

 

The shipcat looking on my drawing board and equipment.

 

Then I was able to photocopy the transparent paper in two A4 whitepaper parts  for further colouring it...

 

It isn't yhe blueish greygreen I am looking for

 

but it is some green at all. And I hopefully added the correct shape of framing of the window into the open round. What do you think... beside I am not fast (I have a lot of time in here and I am awaiting in my room to get picked up for therapies.) This luxourious times will be away in the next days when therapy hours are inforced. But my right hand isn't the preciseliest at all!!! The fleur-de-lys are so doodled the French will dehead me... 

There will to be made some detalling in the next days to fix the troubles and to get all the roughness out of the drawing. 

 

 

 

Le Terrible			13488
Nominal Guns	70	NNF-1661
Nationality	Royaume de France
Operator	Marine Royale
Keel Laid Down	10.1669	NNF-1661
Launched	19.9.1670	NNF-1661
First Commissioned	1671
How acquired	Purpose built	NNF-1661
Shipyard	Brest - Brittany	NNF-1661
Constructor	Laurent Hubac	NNF-1661
Category	Second Rate	NNF-1661
National Rate	Deuxième Rang
Ship Type	Ship of the Line
Sailing Rig	Ship Rigged
Wrecked     Dimension              MeasurementTypeMetric EquivalentNNF-1661 Length of Gundeck140' 0"French Feet (Pied du Roi)45.472 (149′ 2″ Imperial) Length of Keel125' 0"French Feet (Pied du Roi)40.6 (133′ 2″ Imperial) Breadth37' 6"French Feet (Pied du Roi)12.0408 (39′ 6″ Imperial) Depth in Hold17' 0"French Feet (Pied du Roi)5.5216 (18′ 1″ Imperial) Burthen1,300Ton   1671Broadside Weight = 524 French Livre (565.5008 lbs 256.498 kg)NNF-1661 Lower Gun Deck26 French 24-Pounder Upper Gun Deck26 French 12-Pounder Quarterdeck/Forecastle16 French 6-Pounder Quarterdeck/Forecastle4 French 4-Pounder   (So I did told rubbish for the 36pounders on the LD)   Source: https://threedecks.org/index.php?display_type=show_ship&id=13488	11.5.1678

Hello folks,

 

as I am still in the reconvalescence hospital I have to reorder my mind and brain after a little stroke. Due to this I decided to add some fast test project in here, due to the fact, that I'll have no possibility to build - I just can draw (analogue on paper).

 

 

So I bought the book about the recennt exhibition in the Deutsches Technikmuseum (as the German version was not avaible at Amazon) and picked out LE TERRIBLE as a fascinating project. to try my restskills of drawing. The LE TERRIBLE has 14 of the 36pfder gunports and was furnished with 100 - 104 guns. The heller kit is perfect for both - as both have got a 14-gun port 36pounder large gun deck - at the LE TERRIBLE 1670 some more rework onto the hull will have to happen.

 

The half of the other eight ship are present with three drawings - here the little list as we find in where wonderfully enlarged drawings of mostly (T_ransom/G_allion/S_idegallery) and just the very basic facts:

 

POMPEUX 1706/08 (T)

AMBITIEUX 1691 (T/G/S)

BRILLANT 1690 (T/G/S)

PRUDENT 1697 (T/G)

TERRIBLE 1692 (G/S)

FROUDOYANT 1723 (T/G/S)

SOLEIL ROYAL 1669 (T)

SAINT LOUIS 1693 (T/G/S)

 

 

So here we have the side gallery of LE TERRIBLE

 

and the gallion

 

From some distance these both look quite normal but in detail they offer their horrifying character:

 

The anchor bars collumn adding a cerberus, a bizzare monster and snakes converting to leafs.

 

Our beloved Triton is eaten by a horrifyingseamonster thats tails eands in a blind monsters head

 

The figurehead is a monstourous face in a clawended "horror-pancake" guarded by two furies - sa you can see fromout the coin it is a hughe enlagement of these drawings. 

 

The LE ROYAL THERESE seems to be a misidentification as the ink seems to picture the 1670 (68-70gun) LE TERRIBLE as Marc @Hubac's Historian told me.

So by aid of this I want to reconstruate the transoms courronament. 

 

What do we know anout this transom without having the drawing prospect?

 

We will have got to have five tiers - the Upper Dech (UD) is the one under the coronnement with a balcony. I think to add some awning/sunblind (as used to from SAINT PHILIPPE - but as the ship was build at Brest at the Atlantic ocean this feature is questionable, as SP was stationed in the mediteranias sea - so it might be superluous... or authentic baroquelike luxurious?). Then there comes a secomd balcony with  collumns (number?) on the Middle deck (MD) followed by the last row of windows on the Lower Deck (LD). Under this there are the two or four gunports aft. 

 

Courronament

UP (balcony with awning)

MD (balcony with columns)

LD (windows only)

lower transom with gunports (2 or 4) and stern

 

Let's start with the couronnament:

 

Certainly the couronnament will be framed at the sides by the "eaten triton" coming from the side gallery and needs two podestals for the sidelaterns and one for the main laterne - in the middle. So over the courennament there will be a bow up to the stand of the big laterne and on this stand a floral/monstourous mixture mirrowlike on both sides leading up to the foot of the laterne.

 

The 1670th drawing looks like a "structure" surrounded by halbers, pikes, trompets, flags, standarts and other long weapons used contemporary. So my first idea is to sourrounding

 

this copied and horzentalisized face and medusian detail (copied ealiely from the sidegallery) only into a ring of the weapons, flafgs, &ct. 

Or I do take the figure head and "roll it out" so the monstourouse face is guarded by two furies (in a ring of waepons, flags, &ct.)?

 

I also think about taking the fury in the center of the installation on the couronnament and surround it by these dragonheaded snakes ( these leaving the eye craves of the monster) so the ugly bat wings can overshadow the area of the encouonnament and under this a lot of destroyed war goods can build da layer. It is quite freedesigned - is it thought to modern and not contemporary enough?

 

What do our specialists do say?

 

 

( Thanks for our intrest, ( being patient with my shipproject hopping) and I promisse to post more due to the fact that the coloured copy of the side galery is neary ready.) I am happy about any ideas as my brain suffers more than my rest of the body so ceativity has gone into lost - also remembering thinks. So any idea is welcome to me. 

 

If you are interested in the exhibition itself it is in the museum till September 2019 - https://sdtb.de/museum-of-technology/exhibitions/architectura-navalis/

 

 

 

 

On 5/5/2019 at 4:10 PM, CaptainSteve said:

I just wish to point out that I have never read this thread, nor have I looked at any of the pictures. Whoever "liked" your posts using my log-in is a dirty rat. I'm going to hide now. Possibly in a mountain cabin. Or possibly somewhere else.

 

@CaptainSteve Where did you say you have been hiding away on the other side of the earth... hmmm...

 

 

Thank you all for your best wishes,  I am on track, gliding right and left a bit - but better as some other patiens in here... much better!

 

So I come back to the S-curve question that wais in the book on page 154. This S-cure was accidentialy brought in the book. Here the email from ancre.fr:

 

If you may have come to a questionable translation like:

 

"Someone tell truth in going to look around for a quick halwse."* it needs to bee google rubbish

Please don't hesitate to send me the German phrase and I do translate. The book is written in the 50/60th in a quite academic German language.

Have fun with the book - but donnot show it to you better half - mine says: "That shell pattern looks right, lets paint these old cupboard like this and you can do some craving work..." and you are damned to do so in mintish green and gold for the next five years - or you are going to use the TERRIBLE pattern for your mother-in-(c)laws cabinets furniture...

 

 

*meening:

"The one who tells the truth

Needs as fast horse."

Lao Tse

 

 

On 6/29/2019 at 7:16 PM, Hubac's Historian said:

(...)

Clearly, Jean Berain was having a lot of fun with the decor of the Terrible.  The figurehead is spectacular.  As for what the stern may have looked like, here are a few VDV that are believed to be the preceding Terrible, as built by Laurent Hubac:

Wow the TERRIBLE of 1670... Thanks a lot , Marc!

 

 

And think about it! So if you buy both (English and German edition) you can train your German,  too...