allanyed

WELCOME TO MSW!!!
 
What size are the cases?  Sounds like a good quality regular saw from a hardware would suit, but how are you going to move it around when you change ships?  Maybe better off with a mini.  Byrnes is considered by all that have used one as being the best but I am not sure on delivery since Jim passed away a few weeks ago.  The business is still going, but you might want to give them a call to see what the status is on getting one if that turns out to be your choice.  Remember that the blades are small compared to a full size table saw so you are somewhat limited on the lumber size it can handle.
Allan

Welcome to MSW Carter!!  Hope to see some of your work soon.
Allan

Welcome to MSW Carter!!  Hope to see some of your work soon.
Allan

Maybe I should start a new thread but this is in keeping with the overall subject.   What did Spanish naval long gun carriages look like in 1620?   I have done a couple hours of research and have found very little hard information.   I am leaning towards truck carriages with two trucks even though a lot of modern models show four trucks.  One source that is interesting is a video  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=loldlSJ4k_8  There are about  25 seconds of WWII film, then the good stuff.  If anyone has any details they can share on the carriages for various size Spanish cannon in the early 17th century based on contemporary sources I would be grateful.
Allan
 

The article by David Antscherl on planking in the data base on planking explains lining off as well.    https://thenrg.org/resources/Documents/articles/APrimerOnPlanking.pdf
 
To get any of the Passaro vids, just Google Chuck Passaro planking video part 1                or 2,,,, or 3,,,, or 4
 
Allan

Toni,
This may be off the wall, but would you consider setting your build aside and get some experience with high quality beginner models such as the 3 part series from Model Shipways designed by David Antscherl and/or the terrific Medway longboat kit by Chuck Passaro at Syren Ship Models.   You will learn how to properly plank as well as a lot of other things that will carry over to future more complex builds.  Just a thought that may prevent a lot of frustration.    
 
 If you would rather stay with the kit you already have, the suggestion above to study the planking tutorials as well as the four part You Tube series on proper planking is key.   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KCWooJ1o3cM
 
 
Allan

Great joinery, neatly done overall, a joy to follow your build.   Hope a lot of others take a look.   
Allan

I 'glue' the frames over the acrylic windows with Klear floor polish. It's acrylic itself, dries rock hard and is commonly used in plastic modelling for fitting some PE parts. I've been using it for years with no issue. If it gets on the clear pane, then it's no problem.

Don't be too disheartened. When planking any boat, the planks at the top are the easiest to plank since they mostly go on without any taper. The planks near the keel are the most difficult, since by then all the errors from your tapering have compounded and you need some funny shaped planks to fill the holes. 
 
You can get around this by only painting below the waterline, leaving the wood above it unpainted to give the illusion that your planking is better than it is  As for the view from the inside, what I do with all my models of open boats is to make sure the planking up to the level of the grates is neat. Anything below that level will be hidden by the grates from the inside, and paint on the outside, so it can be a complete dogs breakfast and nobody would be any wiser because it will be hidden with filler and paint. 
 
Yeah, you can tell I am not one of the more talented modellers on this forum. But I know how to hide my mistakes! 

As discussed above, and despite Artesania Latina’s claims, the model I am building is clearly not representative of Bligh’s 23ft launch. Despite its name, it is not representative of the Bounty’s jolly boat either as it is too big, corresponding to a 20ft vessel whereas the jolly boat was significantly shorter – Craig’s wonderful scratch build for it on this forum (see: https://modelshipworld.com/topic/33083-16ft-cutter-by-imustbecrazy-finished-small-116-bountys-small-cutter-jolly-boat/) is based on a length of 16ft. So, as Craig suggested in the discussions above, it is probably best to simply consider it as a model of a generic eighteenth-century longboat.

But perhaps it can, more specifically, serve as a model, albeit an imperfect and accidental one, of the Bounty’s third boat, a twenty-foot cutter. For one, the model scales to the correct length of that boat. Comparing it to plans of contemporary cutters, found in W.E.May’s ‘The boats of men of war’ (1999, p.33-4, 41), it also seems to have roughly the right general shape, breadth and depth for a boat of that size. In the image below, I have overlain the contours of the model (in red) onto a plan for the Bounty’s cutter published in John McKay’s ‘The armed transport bounty – anatomy of the ship’ (1989, p.120), and the correspondence is reasonable, although certainly not perfect. It is also virtually identically rigged to what McKay proposes for the bounty’s large cutter.


 
To underscore that tenuous connection to the Bounty in the model (in a desperate attempt to maintain a level of historical interest for it, other than just as a generic 18th century longboat), I decided on using the same colour scheme for my build as that of the reconstruction of Bligh’s launch in the National Maritime Museum in Cornwall. This was built there for the 2017 exhibition ‘Captain Bligh: Myth, Man and Mutiny’. I did not visit this exhibition but based on pictures online, I gather that the boat builders decided to paint the outside hull white up to the whales, which were themselves painted black, with the (single) strake above it painted a light ochre. Keel, rudder and stern were also painted white. So that is what I will do as well.
 
Back to the actual build. Despite this being my first real plank-on-frame build and, therefore, not expecting much in terms of the quality of my planking, I was still disappointed with the dog’s dinner I made of it. I found it really hard to get the strips to lay flat against the frames. As a result, as shown in the picture below, the finished hull has a heavily, unintended clinker appearance. I will chalk it up as a learning experience. The NRG half hull planking kit is going to be my next project, when I finish this one; with its help, I hope to do a much better job in the future.

 
But, I think the hull is still salvageable. The image below shows it after sanding. It is going to be painted anyway, so hopefully my mess will be largely hidden.

Unfortunately, since it is an open boat, it will be impossible to fully hide it, as the image below of the boat’s inside shows. So, to save myself from continued disappointment, I will have to remember to mostly view the boat strictly from the side ;-). Artesania Latina markets the kit as ideal for first-time modellers but perhaps, in hindsight, I would have found a double-planked hull closed off with a deck easier. It would have allowed me to use fasteners to better align the first layer of planks with the frames, and enabled me to hide mistakes below the second, thin layer of strips and the deck. But, I am still thoroughly enjoying this build, which is the main thing.

I have done this on 2 mm brass rod with a good success rate.  My technique was:
 
1. I used a mill to ensure the hole was vertical.
 
2, I used a V bar and centered the drill bit on the V before clamping the rod into the V
 
3. I used a Kyocera bit as they a very sharp
 
4. You can file a very small flat on the side where the drill will enter but I did not find this necessary.
 
John

And happy holidays to you too Allan!
 
I've used Casey Brass Black in the past with mixed success. I've cleaned the brass etc etc, used the solution diluted, but it doesn't always seem to work. I suspect the composition of the brass has something to do with it. Perhaps too much zinc relative to copper.
 
Cheers

Happy holidays Richard!
If you use copper instead of brass, a little diluted liver of sulfur can be done off the model, or on, as it does not stain the wood and is instantaneous if the metal is clean.  Biggest problem is that some do not bother to clean the metal first so there are problems.   A little time in an acid bath followed by a water rinse, or even a soak in acetone to get off any oils from touching the parts works wonders.   
Allan
 
 

I recently had the opportunity to visit Ft. Gaines on Mobile Bay.  One of the displays was an old ship's rudder recovered from the bay.  It is kind of a cool example of rudder metalwork as well as coppering.
 
 
Adam

I just found this in the Danish archives:
 

Thank you very much for the link Cap.    From what I read on the Mystic site Elsie was 124 feet so scantlings may be quite different than the L. A. Dunton.   I think the Ernestina may be closer regarding scantlings.  Either way, both are great sources and I have not yet built either Elsie or Dunton so fun awaits.  Personally I would lean towards the latter as it has not been done to death like Bluenose and Elsie.  
I envy you as you are so fortunate to have had such a great opportunity.   Hope you saved some of the scrap wood and incorporate it into your model.  I did that with a piece of keel I pulled from a scrap heap in St. Michaels where they were rebuilding skipjacks and used it for a little of the planking and the keel.  
 
Allan

This is less than 2" full scale at 1:48 so sounds spot on.   Do you know if there are smaller screws?  For smaller scales such as 1:64 that will leave a hole way over scale. 
 
Are the screws you are using wood screws or??  Can you post a pic, this sounds like a solution for many builders?

Sorry for all the questions😕   
 
Thanks Vaddoc!
 
Allan

Funniest thing I have heard in a while😀  Members sometimes disagree with each other over points here and there, but we all love this hobby and I for one am very happy to learn from every single member and/or be corrected if I got something wrong.   Going back 50+ years ago I was taught by one of my first bosses that even the newest member of our team can often do something better than anyone else and as a supervisor it was my job to find out what that was and utilize that skill for the betterment of all of us.   Same goes for this hobby.   Many of us have decades of experience but we often learn a new trick or idea from even the novices thanks to our membership's willingness to help each other.  But I digress.....   

Christian, are you referring to Vanguards of Empire or Great Ships of the Armada Era by Peter Kirsch.  I did wind up purchasing the latter and it is quite informative.
Allan

Hi Kenny
 
I just looked at over forty high res contemporary plans of all types of English boats and only three showed cross sections that showed the keelson and only one had the footwaling.  The one with footwaling showed no spaces, just a line of where the outboard edges ended so it is anybody's guess what the space was.  between each strake.  The thickness and width of the keelson is found in scantlings and contracts but so far I have only found the thickness of the footwaling.  Like many things on board, common sense probably comes into play.  A gap small enough to prevent the rowers' feet from getting stuck between the footwaling would likely make the most sense.  I think, an inch, maybe two would be ideal.  Then again, maybe some member has information based on contemporary sources that give more details.
 
I realize it is not a long boat, but I thought you might find the following transcription of a contract for a pinnace and a yawl interesting.  Spelling is as on the original contract.   
 
Allan
 
Contracted the 9th of 7ber [September ] 90 with the Honoble Tho[mas] Willshaw, Esqre one of the Principall Officers  & Commrs of their  Majties Navy, for and behalf of their Maties, by me  Tho[mas] Oxford of Gosport Shipwright and I  doe hereby oblige my self to deliver into their Majties Stores at Portsmouth, by ye end of 8ber [October] next ensueing the  Pinnace and Yawle undermentioned  of the Dimensions and Scantlings folling  (viz)     
                           Long              Broad            Deep
Pinnace   of         30ft:   -----      6ft:  ------     2ft: 7ins   ------- One
Depth of the Keel: 5 ins  breadth 4 ins, Scantlings of the timbers 1 ½ ins Roome and space 13 ins,   depth of the Gunwales up & down 4½: ins  in and out 2 ins & 1½ in, Scarph of ye Timber 18 ins, breadth of ye Stem thwartships 3½ ins fore and aft 7 ins, Stern post 3ins, Rising 4½  in, footwales broad 4½ ins and one inch thick, Keelson 8 ins X 1½ in thick, to be fitted with 12 Iron Knees 5 bound thwarts wth Iron Knees & two Transom Knees, with gang boards) and Scarr boards [Wash boards?], benches three  lynings, Grounds  & mouldings, plankshires turn[e]d off,  back board one,  bottome boards two, Keel band 22 ft Ring bolts two,  Rother iron two paire, Rother one  once primed at the Rate of fourteen shillings per foot.
 
Yawle of        Long                            Broad                     Deep
                                                          ft                             ft
                    23 ft                               5   7 ins                  2    5 ins                  One
Railes for the upper strake to be made out of ye whole wood up & down Gunwales stuck,
3 thaurts bound with Iron knees, & ye transoms with two Iron knees.
The State Room (stern sheets, or officers’ seating area) stuck (presumably meaning ‘struck’) with an O:G. & plansheer for the Gunnwales with pannels on each side the back board, a locker under the after bench & lynings under the benches,  keel thwart shipps 4 ins up and downe, 4 ½ ins X 4 ins  Keelson 6 ins broad of 1 ½ ins planck timbers of 1 ½ ins with 13 ins roome and space and 18 ins Scarph, the flower [floor] timber heads to Naile to ye lower edge of ye binding strake, with bottom boards, & shear boards, Keelbands and Iron bolts and Rings for stem and stern, to row with six Oars to be graved and primed to the water line and paid with stuff in the inside to ye Riseing att 12s per foot  

A milling machine is the only way I have been able to do this kind of operation with a high degree of success.  If it is as small as yours I chuck the bit with about a mm protruding from the chuck so it will not flex.  If the hole needs to be deeper, I at least get the center mark where it should be then can bring the bit out further. 
 
I love my Sherline, so a good choice based on my own experience, limited as it is. I know that you know, but for others that may not have had the experience, HIGH quality bits are a must.  
 
Allan

Allan, if you google "1mm Philips self tapping screws" you ll get lots of results. I buy mine from Aliexpress, different lengths with 5 and 6 mm more useful. Last time I bought 20k!
Best is to use 0.8 mm drill. The stainless steel are better than mild steel as the head resists deforming which can make removal impossible. I have had difficulty recently finding good quality proper hard stainless steel ones (if they are non magnetic they are the good ones)
 
Smaller screws are extremely expensive available in very few specialist shops. However, you can thread brass wire and use it to screw things together but it is very labour intensive,
 
vaddoc

Funniest thing I have heard in a while😀  Members sometimes disagree with each other over points here and there, but we all love this hobby and I for one am very happy to learn from every single member and/or be corrected if I got something wrong.   Going back 50+ years ago I was taught by one of my first bosses that even the newest member of our team can often do something better than anyone else and as a supervisor it was my job to find out what that was and utilize that skill for the betterment of all of us.   Same goes for this hobby.   Many of us have decades of experience but we often learn a new trick or idea from even the novices thanks to our membership's willingness to help each other.  But I digress.....   

Dunton plans are available from the Mystic Ships Plan Store (Ships Plans Store | Mystic Seaport Ships Plans), 5 sheets, 1/4" Scale. Oddly enough the closest comparable Schooner is the "Ellsie". 
I have considered building a Dunton, thought of converting a kit on the market. However, there's nothing close to its profile in 1/4" scale, basically I would have to scratch build. Just not up to the task right now. At present I am aware of only two Dunton models, one by Tom Lauria, Fishing Schooner, L.A. Dunton – Model Ships & Boats by (tjlauria.com) and one contracted by Mystic Museum. Tom Lauria used the Seaport Plans plus many trips to Mystic to research measurements and details.
A fellow Seaport Volunteer built a half hull model using the plans. We both worked on the Dunton removing ceiling planks!
Thanks for the link
 
 

Looking really good! 
 
Question, hope that is OK.  Did the kit give instructions for such a large gap between the keelson and four strakes of footwaling?  Seems like a rower could get his foot stuck between these.  I don't know the width of the model so hard to scale this gap, but if the breadth is about 9' ( 2.25" at scale) the gap looks to be around 4" (0.08").  I think the gap would be no more than what the openings on a grating would be, about 2.5"   Even so, your model looks super and the workmanship is neatly done.
 
Probably just a terminology thing, but I do not see any of the rails that you mention. 
 
You might find the attached useful for future boat builds.  These boat scantlings can be found in Scantlings of the Royal Navy which are a transcription of scantlings given in W.E. May's book The Boats of Men of War,
 
Again, very neatly done work, kudos!!
 
AllanBoat Scantlings 1-28-14.pdf