jud

Don't need to druxey, I don't have a problem with what I have said, might be wrong about what I think was done, but the math and physics I have been working with is correct. If you have a problem, why don't you build a model based on my drawings and prove me wrong?

jud

 Went back into cad and copied the hard Left Rudder drawing, put in a Tiller at half Left Rudder, adjusted the blocks so they were as they would be under strain and snapped the distance. See the results in my post above. As I believed, looks linear to me.

dashicat;  Went back to my cad drawing and snapped some distances to see how it effected the Tiller ropes when full rudder movement was used. I snapped the distance between the center of the sheave axles rather than compute the ark length around the sheaves, would still show the effect by doing it the easy way.

Tiller amidships:  total length between block centers at the Vs   27.4 ft.

Rudder half Left:  total length between block centers at the Vs   27.2 ft.

Rudder hard left:  total length between block centers at the Vs   27.0 ft.

                                              Total Difference     0.4 ft.

Measurements from the drawing I posted several days ago, other drawings will get different numbers but the same trend.

Would need to rig the Tiller ropes with the tiller amidships

with no slack, at hard over there would be some slack, decreasing

as the Tiller swung back to C/L which verifies the effects you

computed. Because of the stove chimney, I believe that the tiller

ropes were removed for expected extreme rudder shifts.

All speculation on my part.

jud

After looking at a bunch of photos taken aboard the The Replica Endeavour, I am starting to look at the Tiller a little differently. Haven't changed my mind that the Tiller needs support to ease stress on the Rudder Head clear down to the rudder. I believe that to ease passage through the water the ship uses it's sails not only for power, but using them to cause the ship to want to track in desired heading. If the ship were balanced, only small rudder adjustments would be needed and the chimney would not be in danger of being broken with the Tiller Ropes. The Tiller Ropes appear to have been looped back through the Tiller ring and lashed to it's self. That lashing looked like it was placed so it could be quickly and easily cast free of the tiller. Hard over rudder positions are not the norm and usually are anticipated in advance. The Tiller is longer than what we think as the norm when using a wheel, perhaps the transition period during this place in time while perfecting the use of the wheel created a need to be able to use both wheel and hands on tiller. Ain't speculation cool.

jud

druxey; Believe I made a note about that on one of those drawings. They are not finished plans, only a quick illustration of an idea. Also the end of the wood in that tiller is shown with a hidden line. ' dashed ', at the point the Iron begins. I did not reduce the width there because the photos of the rebuild of the Endeavour's tiller in post 31 do not show a narrowing from the wood section of the tiller to  the iron end, Shows clearly in DFX but not so well in PDF, one reason for the drawing was to find these things out.

jud

Used one of those when hand drafting and needed to show a transition spiral along a Hwy C/L or ROW, worked fine with pencil or ink, it's around here someplace. Also have a Staedtler 951  60-24 which I liked better. The 951 was heavier, could lead it around smaller curves and was heavy enough to stay where you wanted it. Don't know if they are still available.

Just looked, they are.

jud

Dashicat, How I did it was to draw a line from the block anchor point on the tiller to the end of the arc that I had drawn representing the travel line of the end  of the tiller. At the point that that arc was tangent, 'the part of the arc furthest from the first line I drew', to the first line, I made a mark and drew a perpendicular from the first line thru the mark on the arc I had just made. Found the mid point along that perpendicular between the first line and the ark, drew a line from the beginning point of that first line through the midpoint to the rail, then used equal distances from that point of intersection with the rail forward and another equal length towards the stern for block positions, repeated until I had two points with a pleasing spread, looking like it would work. That way should keep the tension as even as you could without leading the tiller rope along the arc of the tiller as the wheel was turned. A mirror image used for the other side.

Need to remember that this is just a method I might try if the problem was mine to take care of, there are some attempting to root out some facts, they may not find any, that would be a shame, the drawings we have seen do not look like a working solution to some of us. The Laws of physics are the same today as they were then, so we do have a method of judging any method shown in documents of the past for any deficiency's and conflicts with reality.

Turns on a drum, would not need to increase the turns unless there was slippage. The nature of a drum in that it lets out and equal length it takes in regardless of the number of turns as long as the number of turns is within reason.

I don't think I can add anything more that would useful to this discussion, I do find it interesting but probably need to let it go and watch for more facts.

jud

Looking at the build log of the HMB Endeavor by Kiwiron/Occre kit, post 1 and 245 it would appear that I was reinventing the wheel. Worth a look.

jud

robin b; Changed the sketch in my post, primarily to see how line widths are effected when printing cad to the Cute PDF software and then bringing that to this site. Refined the original and added a Full Left Rudder configuration. Agree that rigging this way will effect the wheel movement and tiller response, don't consider that much of a problem but if it is, doubling the circumference of the wheel drum would negate the effect. This rigging setup allows plenty of room for the arc but the smoke stack would be in harms way. Are you sure about the additional turns on the wheel drum would need to be increased rigging this way?

jud

Perhaps rigged like this will minimize the slack problem down to a manageable level.

Looks like I may need to start using a white background instead of black like have for years.

TILLER1_Image.pdf

TILLER2_Image.pdf

My two cents about the shown ark on the 1768 drawing makes sense to me, if it was placed between the deck and tiller arm as it appears to be. Think about the moment arm acting on the rudder post just from the weight of that heavy tiller, then add the iron work at the end. Because of the location and height of the steering gear attachment point above the deck in the 1768 drawing  would also add some more downward force to the load on the tiller that the rudder post would need to support, the rudder post would soon snap off. The reinforcing iron and bolts between the rudder post and tiller aboard the replica will not save the rudder post from damage, it would quicken it by making the joint stiffer, they must have lots of problems with the steering gear. Suspect the ark in question and shown on the 1768 drawing lies on the main deck for the tiller arm to rest and run along, probably the arc device was topped with a well greased iron cap and a iron pad attached to the bottom of tiller arm to ease movement and stop excessive wear.

jud

Obtain some material and learn how to use those items before using them on your model. One of the first things I learned from my first pocket knife was learn to think ahead about the order of doing things, rather than how to use the knife, that came later. Dad had shot a skunk and told me I could have that knife I was wanting, if I buried that skunk,  went right after it, and retrieved the skunk, then dug the hole, 'lesson', dig the hole first before retrieval. You are going to learn many things from those tools you cannot foresee, so be ready. Add sharpening stones to your list and learn how to use them, a skill you will need when working with cutting tools. Enjoy

jud

The right timing during the build paired with careful measuring would make these things good to have around. Easy to get to the shrouds for tying ratlines and not causing damage to the model. Looks like a good idea to me, probably a limited market, maybe have more luck selling detailed plans.

jud.

Boat Boom Thumbnail; Took another look to see how the sailor was shown climbing the hanging ladder,'rope ladder', it was shown correctly. Climb them from the side or your feet end up about chin level and become useless for climbing.

iIgorcap; I don't believe they are intended for boat boom use, boat booms need a hinge and two lines, one forward and one aft holding the boom outboard so 3 points is the norm. I was referring to the poles used by the boat crew as grab hooks, so quick, from the boat, control of the boat alongside ship, wharf or dock, the books I have read mention hooking up to the chains as a common grab point. Before getting into the Gun Gang on the Ammen DD 527, one of my assignments was being the bow hook on the Captains Gig, duties were to 'handle the pole, mooring lines then stood at parade rest on the bow of that Motor Whale Boat', while the engineer responded to the bells, the Cockswan used bells to communicate with the engineer who operated the throttle and transmission, they were about 4 feet apart, the bell was used anyway. First got antiquated with boat booms from that Gig, also gained about 5 pounds. Those unknown appendages probably weren't used as catch points. Really don't believe they were intended for bow hook use, I suspect they are used for boat handling in some way.

Forward one is for the Sea Painter, the rear one is an aft steadying line to hold the boat in when riding on the Sea Painter or alongside while the ship was anchored or drifting. When boarding the bow hook pole could hook into the center one to hold the boat for boarding with the rear one also hooked with a pole while passengers left or boarded the boat via the chain plate. Now I will sit back and wait for the proper identification and use.

jud

Chalk board chalk works, keep a box of it in the shop it is a harder form, chalk line powder and the bee hive shaped marking chalk you can obtain in lumber stores also works well, comes in several colors. Have used my metal marking chalk, it is hard but also waxy, could be a form of clay, comes in flat stick refills for holders.

jud

The drawing you show in post #5 is cleaner. Looks like the gun room is a pressure chamber that if standing alone would be a drag and cause turbulence in the water. Looks like most of the actual gun room was covered with false sheeting as streamlining and to stop any noisy cross-flow around the topside structures. Would expect it to be open to the sea, don't see any drains but if not open to the sea.they would be crushed.

jud

Hi Jud

 

You've mentioned a schematic.  Do you have one about the Surcouf ?

 

Alex

No, I stopped the video and looked at that one.

jud

The training circle would be straight forward but it was a dry turret, that means some special seals at the rotating ring and the elevation slides on the front of the turret as well a having seals around the guns allowing for recoil movement but remain water tight while submerged. The seals on the muzzles looked simple enough except needing a gunner on the hull to open and close them. The schematic shows the hoists and barbette  running almost to the keel with powder and shell magazines low in the hull. Would not be surprised if the recoil from her own guns caused leakage. Interesting concept but keeping her dry must have been a nightmare.

jud

Take your pieces to a jeweler that refinishes old watch cases, they have the needed cleaning and polishing setups for different metals. To chrome I think it involves polishing, nickle plating and finally chroming with neutralizing baths and re cleaning before each new step. My uncle used to replate old time watch cases for people using gold, silver, brass, nickle or chrome, he had thousands of dollars invested in beakers, power supplies, chemical cleaners, anodes, solutions with silver, nickle and gold suspensions plus his cleaning acids, neutralizers and polishing set ups. You could probabley do a little reading and try it yourself, using a stainless steel fork as a sacrificial anode, a solution in a glass container the would pass the low voltage and low amperage from a DC power supply. They say it is the polishing, cleaning and time that really counts, electrolysis is easy to create, just dissimilar metals in contact will do it.

jud

Looks like you have a winner there, when you said turntable, you about lost me. Glad I kept reading far enough to see what you were talking about. Having more than one of those devices would not be excessive or take up much room.

jud

Happy because he had just found his missing Timing and Head Space Gage's. Nelsons bunk, shown hanging from the overhead beams must be in the in rigged position. The chest between it and the gun shown with the drawers opening under the bunk, would indicate that the bunk was not always rigged, heck, you need to keep the Servant busy doing something, such as rigging and un-rigging that bunk, keep them busy, makes for a happy crew.

jud

Unlikely that the glue is causing your problem, I suspect that it is a temperature or moisture change. Cause, wood not cured, sawed but not sized after curing or you are adding moisture as a bending aid. Don't sand anything until you find out why you are having this problem, sand it now to fit, and the wood dries further it will shrink, your sanded to match high planks will become the low ones.

jud

Few multi propose machines are worth the trouble it takes to make the conversion, they seldom do any of the advertised functions well. Some may find the tool useful but most would probably choose one function and leave it there. There are a lot of tools advertised that sound very good, but seldom get used, because they were intended for the unknowing gift buyer to purchase. This may be the exception, but I would be waiting to read several unbiased user comments before investing, especially if my budget was limited.

jud