jud

A observation. Hammocks and their contents are cotton, their contents are wool and cotton, 'blankets, clothing with some hemp and personal items mixed in'. All subject to rot and mold. Probably those hammock bundles were ordered into the the rails only when battle was expected or a few other special occasions. Those bundles contained the only personal possessions of the seamen they were issued to and keeping them dry and out of the sun would be expected as the norm, we all should know what moisture and ultra violate light does to cotton and wool, especially when rolled tight, the exposed will break down in the sun and the insides will rot, ever here the expression, 'Rolled tight and put away wet'?. We are told that the hammocks were in the cranes to absorb wood splinters, don't think so, anything that would create splinters would force them inboard past the netting's, there is little outboard of those hammocks to create splinters. Wool and cotton is good at stopping projectiles and would work well protecting exposed gun crews from incoming small arms fire, but would be useless against cannon fire hitting the bulwarks. Another thing, those hammock bundles if not wetted down would be a good place for sparks to get caught in and build into a fire, smoldering at first then flame when enough heat was built up. Suspect the hammock cranes were empty except for drills, combat, inspections or some dress ship evolution. When we still were using cotton mattress and wool blankets in the Navy, we Aired Bedding once a week, conditions permitting. We took our bedding topside and threaded it through the life lines and rails, they were allowed to air there, not stored.

jud

Chris, have removed my posts, your revisions has made them inappropriate and I like the changes. I also didn't intend offense but it is something I seem to do often, probably never change.

jud

Need to keep track of your methods, perhaps change my ways now. Working through some plans I have obtained for 542 Class LST's with the intent of a build, already I see problems developing with folder and file organization. Drawing in full scale using Traverse PC for COGO work and General Cad for drawing cleanup. Started with cad from downloaded plans, then added some plans I purchased from 'The Floating Drydock', did not like how this was progressing, but it was easy to produce an image that didn't look bad. I wanted more than line work, I wanted a Coordinate File using point numbers in a table form, although the coordinates were there in cad they were not in a format I liked or easy to extract. Dropped the cad for now and went to Traverce PC, a 2D surveying program I am familiar with. Few measurements on the plans and lacking some details, but enough to end up with some good coordinates for the hull to work with. No crown on LST's decks and they are built perpendicular and parallel except for the sloping bottom for beaching so bearing-bearing, bearing-distance and distance-distance intersections produce good missing points with their coordinates from a few known points and distances. Some details need to be rooted out from other sources, but I have plenty of data for now. Why am I doing it this way? I want the coordinates of the points, curve data and the ability to use the cross section routines in the program for frame shapes. I will take all into cad for fine tuning of the appearance, will also print patterns from cad. Planning on 1/72 scale, but I will be able to print at any scale, even full scale, if you provide the plotter.

Any suggestions or pointers are encouraged, this is my first attempt at this.

jud 

Nenad

Ship looking good.

now this.

My yucca-war was successful ( for now). But grass ... this season grass grows rapidly every time when I look at it in yard !

Arrogant grass you have, at least mine waits until I turn my back. If mine flaunted it's independence so flagrantly, there might be a Monsanto Round Up.

jud

Having grown up on a Ranch about 18 miles from the Pendleton Round Up, the words round up create an image for me of a rough sport as well as a herbicide.

Built mine in 72, don't remember. Seems like it was about 2 feet long. The the length of the ship and model are the numbers to crunch to find out.

jud

looked up a length of 212' long, using your 24", I came up with 1/106, that seems like an odd number to me. Could be the 212' is hull and your 24" is overall.

About half the time that I use a clove hitch, I can tie it and throw it over the end of something, or to make a temporary halter from a rope by twisting the large loops around each other once and adjusting to fit, a half hitch once on will keep it in place if you expect a storm. learned that from an old cowboy when I was a kid and he had me tying the clove hitch using two hands without using the ends of the rope. Lay the rope over your right hand holding with your thumb, palm up. Left hand, palm down, thumb pointing away from the body, holding the rope so it runs under the left thumb straight out to the right through the right hand. Now twist both hands counter clock wise and lay the loops together and you have a clove hitch, The crossings will be down, but playing with the constrictor knot discovered that you can turn the crossings of the clove hitch up, then tuck the end coming out to the right under the inside loop, closest to the body clove hitch loop, and turn it into a constrictor. Once the movements become automatic in taking a hold of the rope so you can twist counter clock wise, tying the clove hitch and the constrictor can be done quickly. Now I need to find a way to tie the constrictor around  a pole or ring.

jud

No Wayne, I am not suggesting that at all. I am wondering how the sharp bends in the anchor cable were avoided or eliminated when the up and down part of the cable recovery was being done. So far, I have seen only some small gains in reducing the bending problem suggested, I think we are moving in the right direction though. Tilting the hawse down, lining it with lead and greasing it would aid in reducing the brake effect of a bend in the cable entering the hawse and help prevent damage to the hawze itself. Bolsters would help a little, they would contribute a lot in avoiding a sharp bend in the cable if they were used to help hold in place, some sort of temporary radius placed over them to ease the angle where the up and down cable was entering the hawse, that could be a viable solution. As far as using the cat for a vertical lift, those sailors were well able to use lashings to attach the lower block to the cable and then lift to the two block position, then stoppers could hold the cable while the lower block was re positioned on the anchor cable for another lift, not the most efficient method but well withing the capabilities of the the seamen and the cat gear. Doing it that way would produce a large slack bow in the anchor cable that could be pulled inboard through the hawse hole as the anchor was lifted. Maybe the answer was hidden in the gear stored below in the Constitution that no one could identify, or figure out what it was used for and had it all removed from the ship some time ago. We should all accept the fact that the seaman of old did everything within their abilities to prevent unnecessary damage to ship and gear. Hauling a cable under tension around a sharp angle would be something they avoided, even if the writings do not explain how. I see lots of critical parts left out of the written descriptions of gun handling so I expect to see such oversights in other writings preserved from the past, just because it is not covered in writings yet discovered, a problem existed then as it does today with pulling lines around sharp bends.

jud

Good source Dashi. For modern fiber rope I cut and pasted the following from page 38;

Agree with all that has been noted, the cable let out beyond the depth was and is called the scope and it is there to force the flukes to dig in, bringing the ship over the anchor while hauling in on the cable will lift the stock and pull the flukes free of the bottom. It is from that point that I question and still do, something is missing in the lift, not the hauling in of the scope. Granted, exceptional measures are taken when the anchor is snagged on the bottom and sometimes the cable was cut, not questioning those things, only the everyday lifting of a anchor that is on the bottom ready to begin the vertical lift part of the recovery. When an anchor cable becomes so large it can't be used on the capstan without damaging it, why would a sharp angle on the outboard side of the hawse be OK? Thanks all.

jud

Stoppers could have worked while re positioning the lower block on the cable. Have knocked the keepers off of pelican hooks holding the anchor chain and have been at the capstan when hoisting the anchor, taking in the chain when unshackling from a buoy, taking a strain on  bow lines and even used a capstan once to pull a 40mm gun out of battery. The hawse hole, chocks or blocks were used to lead the chain or lines to prevent sharp angles in all of the above. Have pulled rope around sharp angled corners and know what it does to the rope and if wood, what happens to the angle point on the wood itself, chains usually hang up in such conditions, so my question is based on experience. The hawse holes on the Constitution and ships so rigged would destroy themselves and any cable pulled through them with any strain at a near 90° angle, even a light load would do it, something missing in how the evolution was accomplished. Those old boys went to a lot of trouble to use blocks, bits, guides and fraping gear, to prevent damage to all their running and standing gear, the same care was also needed for the anchor cable and chains, those needs resulted in changes in how the hawse pipes were used to lead the cable, 'chain', out of the ship. Not a light question for me, I see a problem and I wonder how it was addressed. Have thought through how I might do it, but that is not the same as doing it or hearing from someone who actually needed to lift an anchor with that gear and hawse hole configuration. Not worth arguing about, but will continue to wonder how the anchors were lifted, I have a strong suspicion that the whole picture has not been reveled yet.

jud :)

Mark, thanks, I had seen that before and it bothered me then, it is only a solution to taking in the cable when the cable is lead out ahead of the ship, be a good way to move the ship against the wind or current until it was near the anchor. When the cable was up and down, the cable coming outboard of the hawse would bend down 90° when tension was created by the capstan pulling against the anchor that would have been under the bows, creating the up and down position of the cable.  More  modern hawse pipes  that lead the cable outboard from the powered capstan outboard do not allow an angle to develop as a hawse leading horizontally outboard does when the cable is up and down. That cable being pulled around that sharp angle would not only act as a brake but would damage the anchor cable. My question is, what was done to overcome that problem. I suspect that the cat was used to do all of the vertical lifting when recovering the anchor.

jud

While keeping up with what lambsbk is doing with his hawse holes and the breast hook, it made me to wonder about the use of the configuration of those hawse holes and capstan to hoist the anchor. Would work well to take in the scope but when the cable became almost up and down, the angle at the hawse would act as a brake and the sharp turn would damage the cable. When the cable reached an almost up and down position was the capstan secured and the lift taken over  by the cat rigging using stoppers to reset the lifting block to the cable after each two blocking of the rig?

jud

Think that a cow hitch is used on the outside schrods and clove hitches between, takes advantage of the natural lay of the hitches. Been looking at the constrictor knot, it might be the better knot for the ratlines, replacing the clove hitch. popeye2sea suggested the constrictor on another post, probably a knot used by grandad on the ears of grain sacks, to start and finish sewing the tops closed, a knot I haven't used but see some use for it.

jud

Like your post # 122, shows some objective and respectful opinions about this subject.

jud

Pinched from dashicat post # 97;

From the entry for Saturday 27th January from the book, 'First Voyage Around the World: Captain Cook's Journal During his First Voyage, Page 272, Cook writes:

 "Saturday, 27th. Fresh gales, Westerly. This day we got the Tiller properly secured, which hath been the Employment of the Armourers and part of the Carpenters since we Anchor'd at this place; the former in repairing and making new Iron work, and the Latter in fixing a Transom,* for the want of which the Tiller has often been in danger of being broke; the Iron braces that supply'd the want of a Transom have broke every time they have been repair'd."

*The reference at the bottom of page 272 states: * A transom is a curved piece of wood which supports the end of the tiller.

https://books.google...transom&f=false

I would expect that all who have read Cooks words would agree that he is speaking about the tiller, that term defined today is as it was in Cooks day. Transoms as the term is commonly used today, have nothing to do with steering except in a few cases, nor is it common for ships to have their steering gear attached to a transom. Transoms are used today as attachment points for outboard motors, sometimes a steering oar can be used with the transom. Rudders also get attached to small boats by anchoring them to the transom, if there is no stern post.

Why is there so much resistance to the tiller supporting arc being added by Cook to prevent future problems with his steering gear? Since that is not logical, it makes me wonder.

We know he was having problems with his tiller, it was breaking reinforcing bands, the only place where there was iron reinforcing was at the rudder post head,  the attaching point between the tiller and the rudder post, serious stuff when you are traveling around the world looking into inlets, negotiating island and reef clusters not to mention heavy seas. The Endeaver used the stern post as the attachment point for her rudder, not a transom, the rudder post did pass through the transom area but just as in other ships, it passed through, not attached. Cook did need to do some structural repairs to his hull, he beached his ship to do it, no mention of structural repairs was made to the hull in the stern area. The most logical solution of a design flaw  would be to put in place something that would relieve the destructive forces that were causing the problem. When faced with a problem, you repair it and do what you can to prevent it from happening again. Cook did that by putting in place, an arc shaped support for his tiller, it worked. The best proof of that, would be that Cooks fix showing up on drawings for her refit after the voyage.  I'm sticking with the arc and also the voyage was mostly in tropical waters, the chimney was probably removed and Cook kept his chickens in the stove so the eggs weren't stolen.

jud 

Glad you found some documentation for tiller support. In spite of the physic of an unsupported tiller being subject to failure, the supporting arc was a hard sell to most.

good job! :)

jud

As I described it, it would if uniform tension was kept on the tension side of the line, for insurance just form another loop and put inside the first loop formed on the half hitch and snug it all down, but you loose some the quick release advantage, especially if it gets jammed. Regardless, what I describe would only for a temporary hold fast, poor choice for any rigging intended for extended unattended use. For use in securing an object, it would be fine to use, Rings are used to hook other devices to, not normally lines. Look up quick release knot. Old saying, a half hitch will hold anything, double it and you can hold the world, found that statement not to be so outlandish, but if slack develops, Katie, bar the door.

jud

Could it be that it is not common practice to belay to a ring? Think you have the term belay defined, now you need to take a look at the devices noted in the description you have, compared to a closed ring. If I needed to secure a line to a ring, I would double the line, poke the loop thru the ring and then make a half hitch using the double. That way, if I needed to let go quickly, I would use the free side to pull the hitch apart and have the line clear of the ring. There are several methods people use when a quick emergency release is needed, all require doubling the line before forming the hitch.

jud

need to add, when you make the half hitch, use the loop and lay it in like a shoe lace, then like the shoe lace, a tug will let it fall apart.

That photo inside the hull looks a lot like the inside of the hull of the Star of India the first time I was allowed in there, collision bulkhead was in place and the rest empty except for the Iron fresh water tank hanging from the overhead. The Star had a lot more rust and trash in there then, which was later cleaned out. My experience being in compartmentalized ships at that time, the open hull seemed huge as did the inner hull of a lumber schooner I was aboard in San Francisco. I like to see these of vessels restored, those with first hand memory's of the old folks talking about these ships are now gone, the only thing left of an era are the bones and some items like the old cheese safe we have in the family that arrived on the West coast aboard a Bark that had went around the Horn, it still smells of cheese.

jud

Worn cowboy boots all my life because of those shoe knots. ' http://www.animatedknots.com/knotlist.php?LogoImage=LogoGrog.jpg&Website=www.animatedknots.com', is one of many sites on the net dedicated to teach how to tie knots, also many books are out there, I have many of them that I have obtained over the years, think the first one was my dads Boy Scout Manual, won't dig it out, but I think it is the 1923 model. You may feel intimidated with knots, get yourself a  4 foot +/- piece of cotton rope, a book or computer site and start learning how to tie the knots you hear mentioned on this site, not that many of them. You won't be needing a Mathew Walker knot, masthead knot or need to learn how to tie a bowline in the center of a line, that is one I use regularly, either that one or a truckers hitch used like a block and tackle to tighten up load holding ropes.  Today handling rope or line and the knots needed is not part of everyone's life, so you will need to practice, heck you might become one of the few people in the world that knows how to handle a lawn hose without kinking it up, it's just like a stiff rope, the same rules apply. Get started, it can be fun and creating decorative but useful items from rope or lacing using knots and hitches can become a fun hobby by itself. Never know when you will need to know how to use a clove hitch to make a quick halter so you can lead a loose horse home.

jud

Need to get over the habit of chewing on that work board, when doing that kind of fabrication, looks like you have chewed about 80 mm off already and will need a replacement board soon.

You have made some very nice Dead Eyes Nenad, few who started where you did with this project would have had the patience and fortitude to develop the skills and knowledge gain from research now shown in your work.

jud

Looks like a normal door with high comings and extended door frames, kind of like a hatch that could be secured for sea, doorway made water tight by covering with a cover secured with bands and wedges only when needed. It might be a slider, have seen them used for doors into wheel houses from the rear, never on the side or front. Aboard a troller tied up in Sitka in 65 and heard a large boom and felt some shaking, got into the wheelhouse quick enough to see everything that went up, coming down. The boat ahead of us about 50 feet was powered with a gas engine and had developed a drip-drip leak in the fuel line, Skipper left the boat to find some repair parts and slid his sliding door closed and the drip kept dripping, building fumes because the boat was closed up, when that sliding door was opened, the fuel-air proportions were correct for an explosion, blew the deck and wheel house off as a unit, the planks were blown from the ribs. Skipper was stripped, thrown over the stern, other than shaken up with light burns, was uninjured. Summer of 65, probably could look it up in the local paper for details. Does not solve the question of type of door for you but does provide a story centered around drips and a sliding door.

jud

Many conversion tables and charts available today. I use my HP 48GX to convert using the values I have in my head for the units I find myself using, not there, I know where to find a table. The trick is to know the definition of the units you are using, but then, most will be fine without knowing the fine details found in definitions.

jud

robin b; never made any claim that it was common practice for red glass in such lights. It does make sense to me for the glass to be red because of experience on ships at sea at night. I know what white light does to night vision and without radar, ears and eyes is all you have to keep out of trouble.

jud

robin b; A red light will not destroy your night vision, a white light will. Navigation lights are red, green and white today. Red can be seen in the dark from outboard, sometimes better than a dim white light in some conditions. Think red may be the proper color, that red light would illuminate the quarterdeck without destroying night vision and would be a good non-blinding reference point for anyone on deck. At night while below decks after taps, the lights were red, we did use white spotlights at night on the Harnett County after we had 3 mines attached to us by swimmers. Those lights were scanning with an armed sailor with orders to shoot anything in the water that could conceal a swimmer or mine, it was watch, see, shoot and watch. didn't ask for permission to fire. One swimmer done in with a grenade and another shot while using a log to hide him.

jud