vaddoc

Druxey, the boat now lives in the house and will only go to the garage when I ll be working on it. Yes, we do suffer winters with the dry air!

 

Thank you Mark, it is about 1 mm in many areas, too wide to paint. The whole boat is about 70 cm in length, 1:10 scale. Another problem is that I sanded the bottom inner edges of the planks but much more than I should. After sanding the hull, these gaps should open up even more. It seems that maple that I used for the planks (well seasoned) has high movement in service.

 

I think I ll wait for a few days for the boat to soak up moisture and then I ll fill the cracks from the inside, sand the ribs, install the beam selves and stringers and take it from there.

 

Vaddoc

Dear all

 

Work continues slowly with its ups and downs. John many thanks!

 

I continued taking frames out but then a problem developed. The hull started deforming. I have started a separate thread on this.

(https://modelshipworld.com/index.php?/topic/17360-hull-deforming-advice-needed/&tab=comments#comment-536582)
 

I have now taken all the temporary frames out and installed all the permanent frames. I have installed more braces to preserve the shape of the hull. 

Now, this indeed looks impressive, very rewarding photos!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I am not sure now how to proceed and I need to think. Many thanks to everyone that have offered their advice on the thread.

 

However, there are two more new problems.

 

One, my gas heater broke down and the replacement I was sent does not work either. With freezing temperatures I can no longer work.

Secondly, there are now gaps in between all of the planks!. I think the reason is the change in moisture. When I installed the planks it was summer and humidity was high. Now the boat and wood is constantly in just above freezing temperatures and I think humidity has reduced a lot and the wood has shrunk. Not really sure how to deal with this. I think a lot of filling will be needed but in the next season cycle it will probably fall off. Who said boat building is easy...

 

Hopefully my gas heater will be fixed and if life allows me I may do a bit of work in the next few weeks.

 

Mary christmas and a happy new year to all!

 

Vaddoc

 

Dear Druxey, Jim, Steven and Bruce

Thank you for your suggestions. I have now installed more braces and removed the last two temporary frames.

 

 

 

Steven, your boat is very nice. 132 frames though! And I though my 84 were a lot. Still, your boat even without stringers held its shape. My frames are 4 x 2 mm beech and despite they bent nicely after heated through, they are stiff and they seem to push hard against the planks.

I am really not sure what I should do. Building a scaffold externally to support the hull seems to be the more comprehensive way but means an awful lot of work. I find that I can squeeze my hand enough to do some work and possibly I will be able to sand the frames and install the stingers and beam selves.

 

I think that I may have overcorrected a couple of areas when installing the new braces as I had to push rather hard to install them. I ll have another look. Certainly though the hull will need to be supported.

 

This was a useful lesson. I think that hulls with steam bend frames are lighter but probably not as strong as hulls with proper solid frames.

 

I ll post updates in this thread when I find theme to do some more work.

 

Regards

Vaddoc

 

Dear all

I would be very grateful for a bit of advice. I am building a boat that has carvel planking with 42 steam bend ribs each side. Initially during building there are some plywood frames that hold the shape until they are replaced by the ribs.

I have installed almost all the ribs and only 2 temp frames remain in place. I was advised as a precaution to have some cross-spalls to avoid hull deformity and I installed a few. However, I noticed today that the sheer plank has deformed and is now a bit wavy. The photos show that in the gaps between the cross spalls and frames, the ribs are pushing the sheer plank outwards. The photos exaggerate the deformity due to lence and distance issues but it is there.It took a few days for this deformity to develop.

 

 

 

 

 

In the plans, the next step would be to install a stringer low in the bilge and a beam self. However, I still need to do some work in the interior (sanding, floors, mast step etc). Also I need to first remove the remaining two frames which will probably lead to more deformity.

1. What will happen if I remove all frames and braces? Will the sheer plank short it self out with minimal overall deformity or will it massively deform?

2. Should I put even more braces and pul the sheer back into shape and then install the stringer and beam self? But then I will loose all access to interior. Still the beam self should add a lot of rigidity to the sheer.

3. I this what happens with all steam bend ribbed hulls?

 

Any advice would be greatly appreciated as these are uncharted waters for me

Regards

Vaddoc

 

 

Just a quick update

My parents have been with us for a month so lately I was able to work on the boat. They are now leaving so back to my usual snail pace!

I ve taken all but two of the frames off and only 4 ribs are left to be installed. It looks alright!

Bags of work left...

 

 

Thanks Patrick!

A couple of more photos, I have installed most of the ribs and removed some of the frames. I also followed Druxeys advice and got some cross-spalls on. 

 

I need to finish with the ribs, sand them smooth, fill and sand the inside of the plank to plank gaps and install the lower stringers and the beam selves. I think then the boat will hold its shape a bit better.

 

It is amazing how much material the boat is consuming. Also, these cross-spalls are very much in the way, I did not expect this, I though I would have a fully accessible hull at this stage so now everything will be a bit of squeeze and struggle.

 

 

 

 

 

I have a variety of surgical blades which are very sharp but brittle. I use some universal plastic-metal holders that came with a cheap set and hold the blades just fine. However, I lately use more the very common knives with retractable blades that you can snap off a section. I have a few 9 mm and a couple 18 mm ones and I buy blades in packs of 10. I find them less sharp but I can cut paper, wood and metal and somehow are easier to keep on the line I intend to cut. Since I got a 4mm chisel, I find I use it also quite a lot. 

I run out of tree nails and made a few out of the nice cherry piece I was given. This is how 1500 tree nails (give or take...) look like!

 

I ve been silently following your Shadow from afar Patrick, it is a lovely model. I think the golden paint looks fantastic, looking forward for more photos 

 

Vaddoc

I continued installing the ribs. I throw the pieces in boiling water, then fit them to the hull and bend to shape, secure with 1 mm screws, then drill and install the wood nails. Then a few hours later remove the screws and fill with wood nails. Most of the ribs are in but there is a lot of work left and some ribs can only be installed after the frames are removed. Beech responds superbly to heat:

 

 

An interesting aspect: During planking, there were a few areas that the plank did not follow the contour of the hull for all of its length. This was due to a lot of factors. Either the grain had a funny course and the plank was wavy or the frame was a bit off or the plank was a hair too long or did not fit perfectly. I thought that I could pull the plank into alignment with the screws and nails but this only worked to a (small) degree.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Hopefully next update will be when all ribs are in place.

On 11/4/2017 at 1:01 AM, druxey said:

It's more likely to spread than collapse. I'd use some temporary cross-spalls as insurance to keep the hull from doing this.

You are probably right Druxey. Any chance you think the hull might be rigid and not move after the temporary frames are removed?

I tried to google this actually but I could not find any information on the dynamics of hulls with steam bend ribs and their tendency to deform. I wonder, in real boat construction, do they also keep the spalls in place until the beams and bulkheads are in place?

 

In any case I will follow your suggestion.

Work continues on the boat. I now have standardised the procedure of installing the ribs. 

A few issues: I made about 500 tree nails but then had to throw all away as I used a softwood with interlocking grain so all the tree nails had cross grain in the middle and were weak. However, I had a piece of seasoned cherry wood that I salvaged from a friend who was using it as firewood. This produced wonderful and very strong tree nails. I have already called him to save me a few more pieces!

 

The ribs seem to be attached very securely to the planks. At the area of the mast step, there are 3 sets of ribs that are wider. I forgot that I intended to use two lines of tree nails but even with one the ribs are very well attached to the hull.

 

The hull is begging for some sanding but the time has not come yet. By the time the ribs are all in it will be even more messy and rough.

 

Some pics:

 

 

 

 

 

I wonder, will the hull hold its shape after the temporary frames are removed or will it collapse? We shall soon find out.

 

Regards

Don't put too much oil or it will start dripping down the sides!

The sewing machine oil arrived and I put a few drops (may overdid it a bit) in the spindle. Very thin oil that gets sucked through the very small opening. The sound of the drill changed, it def needed the oil.

it has ball bearings but they are not accessible. At the top of the spindle there is an opening that you pour oil through. I am not sure though if this is supposed to lubricate the bearings or the rest of the moving parts. I suspect the latter.

Well, I did a bit more research on the net. It appears that indeed 3 in 1 has been traditionally used but there seems to be some disadvantages. Sewing machine oil on the other hand seems to be a very fluid oil, some times fully synthetic, specially formulated for such purposes. I just ordered a bottle

One of my favourite tools is the small proxxon drill press. The manual suggests every 10 hours of operation to lubricate the bearings but does not specify what oil to use. I emailed Proxxon and this was the reply:

 

The TBM 220 drill press may be lubricated with a wide range oils, so we do not recommend any specific lubricant. Sewing machine oil is absolutely suitable.

 

Maybe this will be of help to others. I am not sure what I will use, I think probably what ever car motor oil I can get my hands on.

 

Vaddoc

Thanks for the suggestions Roger. I did try to use the outside of the hull as a form but there are two problems, one that the end of the ribs that slots in the keel cannot be set  from the outside and also that there is no way to secure the rib to the hull but to screw it on, and I don't want to open any more holes. Regarding laminating the ribs, I guess it could be done with 4 half mm laminates and there would be no need to steam bend anything. Well, I did not think of this beforehand! It would be a good solution, a bit messy and complex but would produce ribs with almost perfect shape.

Still, the beech I am using, if up to temperature, bends very nicely.

 

Regards

Vaddoc

Thanks John! Trying hard to scrape an hour here and there to keep the building going.

 

My treenail stash got depleted so I made round 300 more. I have standardised two sizes, one for usual use and a slightly larger one for when the hole gets a bit larger after a failed treenail etc.

 

 

I am also trying to find an easy way to attach the ribs. It is not possible to glue the ribs to the planks so they will be just tree nailed. I am concerned though that the ribs might break free or the whole hull might get deformed. In any case I installed one more rib. 

 

I must now reconsider: This is a slow and rather complicated job. 82 more ribs left...

 

 

 

 

Hopefully in my next post I will be able to show much better progress 

 

 

Dear Ken

You somehow managed to reveal a beauty that I never thought these enormous (and ugly) Maersk container ships had.

Very nice and interesting work.

What primer are you using?

Today I installed the first of the ribs. I did some simple calculations to position the ribs along the sheer plank. I also got the special Dremel disk to cut some of the frames to make space. It cut the wood like hot knife through butter.

 

Druxey, it is pretty difficult to glue the ribs to the planks. At this scale the ribs are pretty stiff and although they can be bent to follow the contour and twist of the hull, they won't stay in tight contact. Also some of the planks are just a bit out of alignment. PVA glue of course needs tight contact and time to set.

 

I used a couple of temporary screws and then drilled 3 holes per plank and used tree nails with glue. I used the flexi dremel drive as space is really tight. It took a while but I think the rib is very well secured.

 

 

 

 

I used about 60 tree nails for this rib alone taking into account wastage.

The good news are that it is doable. The bad ones that there are 83 more ribs left!

 

Regards

Thank you all, it really has been an exciting moment!

 

I gave it a go to install the ribs and surprisingly it was very easy. I soaked the beach strips in water, wrapped them three at a time in a wet towel and heated the whole thing in our old microwave which had been stored in the garage. There was a small learning curve but the strips took the bend very nicely. I got a few in but now the real problems begin:

 

1. I know where the bottom end of the ribs go (except the bow and stern where I will need to guess). I need now to figure out how to space the upper end along the sheer plank.

 

2. How should I secure the ribs to the planks? I will use tree nails for sure and in the end probably also put a bit of epoxy to the bottom end, hopefully they will hold well enough. Should I also glue the ribs to the plank? This will be a messy job I think.

 

There is really very little working space. I have the flexible Dremel drive but I might need the angle drill accessory 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Dear all

Planking is finished!

 

 

 

 

 

 

Planking has been huge fun and less difficult than I expected. It took a while though, I started planking Dec 7 2016 so 30 planks in total took me 10 months and 7 days! I learned a lot and having spent 10 months spilling planks I fill quite comfortable with the process. 

Of course, if there is a prize for rough hulls I probably should get it but I am optimistic it will get better.

 

Next step was to lift the boat from the MDF base. This was actually dead easy, just a few knocks with a large chisel did the job. 

 

 

The interior is very rough as I have sanded the bottom edge of all planks so that they could meet better, due to the curvature of the hull. I sanded much more than needed so there is now a big gap when looking from the inside. I wonder if this could be filled with filler. The notches for the ribs can also be seen in the next photo.

 

 

Next I experimented with the ribs. I will use either beech or maple but Beech is a stronger stiffer wood. It is supposed to respond superbly to heat and indeed, after a few seconds in very hot water it bent easily and followed the contour of the hull.

 

 

However bending the strip to shape and securing it in place will be difficult as there is no working space as the frames are close together and the hull deep

 

 

 

 

I thought that if I cut the excess of some of the frames there will be more space. The frames are though made from 6 mm plywood which is super strong. Some not so modelling tools had to be used at a risk of major injury to the model.

 

 

Wood dust got into every groove so a bit of improvisation with my cycle pump was needed to blow it away

 

 

I took two frames out and access is improved, I need to smooth the rough edges though. I intend to leave some frames to be able to turn the boat and also have an idea regarding the water line as the frames are set at a defined height.

 

 

A new page starts today! The amount of work left to be done though is enormous, this boat will take years to complete but then again there is no rush.

 

Regards

 

 

I think I hit a milestone. The starboard sheer plank has gone on! It is drying in place waiting for the screws and tree nails to go in.

It will be a bit of a challenge to make the port sheer plank exactly identical and I expect a bit of head scratching will be needed.

 

Patrick you are right, it is a big hull! When the false keel goes on, it will be even bigger! 

 

I think in my lofting I should have made the sheer a bit more curved, especially at the bow. However I have not deviated a lot from the original lines at the sheer.

 

 

 

 

I have the template for the other sheer plank ready. When planking is completed I will take the boat off its base and start installing the ribs, I wonder if they will actually hold the shape of the boat. I may use temporary screws for the ribs but they will be finally fastened with tree nails, probably I will need close to 4000 just for the hull!

 

This is a very complex build and a lot of thinking and planning ahead is needed. Working in such large scale is great fun but even slight inaccuracies are very much visible and a perfect plank to plank contact along the entire length is very difficult to achieve. The sheer plank is more than 80 cm long!

 

Hopefully I ll finish planking this weekend.

Ever thought of scratch building something POF? In the long run I think much more expensive than kits but very satisfying. Also this way you can build anything you like.

Victory as your first model and actually completed, now this is impressive!

Regards