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Bob Cleek

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  1. Like
    Bob Cleek got a reaction from Nardo26 in Simulating Caulking between hull and deck planking   
    Just a general opinionated observation for what it's worth: 
     
    I think that the overwhelming majority of modeling details which are less than optimal are the result of overscale small details which the modeler focuses upon and obsesses over at the expense of the overall impression of reality which is the true objective of the modeling endeavor. Slightly underscale details do not similarly offend the experienced viewer's eyes because our minds, being what they are, unconsciously compensate for details that are smaller than they should be but not for those that are larger and give us a "poke in the eye." It's always better to err on the side of subtlety. When miniaturists undertake to portray a subject with the level of detail found in a ship model, the smaller the scale the more the modeler must be an "impressionist" rather than a "realist." 
     
    I've found that scale and historical accuracy should always take precedence over all else. If you do the research on scantlings for your vessel, you'll likely find that the stopping in its deck seams was narrower than a half inch. In most vessels other than naval warships maintained "Bristol fashion" with regularly holy-stoned decks, the decks will be quite dark, discolored by weathering, dirt, and the drips of pine tar and paint falling from aloft and tracked by the sticky bare feet of sailors climbing in tarred rigging softened by the hot sun.) Indeed, the deck of a working whaler would appear uniformly black from the grease spread by the rendering of blubber. The appearance of a ship's deck from a scale distance (i.e. if one were observing the prototype vessel from a full-scale distance) will very often lack the details of plank seams and fastening plugs or trunnels that so many modelers seem so determined to portray in miniature when in real life they'd be invisible or nearly so. Needless to say, carvel-hung hull plank seams wouldn't be discernable when viewed from the usual distant scale viewing distance because they were always finished fair and painted over. They weren't intended to be seen. Hull seams might become more apparent over time as the hull "worked" and became "tired," but even then they were painted over and would not show seams of contrasting paint color. 
     
    Of course, there are modeling styles that deviate from what the eye would see of the prototype vessel. The most common of these would be the "as built" framed models whose purpose is to accurately portray timbering details and are finished "bright" (unpainted) as some of the Admiralty Board models seen in the higher quality maritime museum collections. Even in these often-unplanked open-framed models, where plank seams and fastenings may be shown, proper scale may well dictate that such details are nearly invisible or only very subtly suggested. In the finest 1:48 scale museum pieces, unfinished pearwood deck planking is sometimes merely drawn with a pencil line the width of a human hair, omitting plank ends or fastenings of any kind. The viewer's eyes see only the barest suggestion of "planking" with no hint of fastenings or plank butts, but their brain correctly says "planked decks." It is this "tricking the eye" that produces the illusion of reality in fine scale models. Overscale details such as prominent fastenings and plugs, particularly when set where no shipwright ever would have put them, too close to the plank edge or even a single fastening in a plank end, and shiny polished "real copper" plates with tacks having rounded heads two scale inches in diameter giving the overall effect of a terminal case of acne, may demonstrate the modeler's dedication and patience, but to no good effect beyond that.
     
    I post this opinion not to criticize any particular modeler's efforts, but rather as an exhortation in the interests of "better modeling." We often see a  less experienced modeler proudly posting work in this forum which exhibits out-of-scale and inaccurate details, often after obviously spending a tremendous amount of time creating them. At that point, it's too late to comment gracefully on such flaws and so nobody mentions them, directly at least. Alternately, when newer modelers ask questions regarding their intentions to pursue such errors, experienced modelers circumspectly express their opinions in suggested alternative courses of action in order to avoid causing offense or hurt feelings. The result of this, together with the marketing gimmicks of some kit manufacturers ("Over 1,000 parts... includes real copper plates!") seems to only perpetuate these mistakes. So I offer these comments only generally to those who may wish to consider them. For those who might ask, "So what makes you an expert?" I can only answer, "Because these are all mistakes I've made myself!"
     
    Tom Lauria, a master modeler who has an excellent collection of YouTube videos on ship modeling, has a good video entitled Scale and the Compelling Impression. I highly recommend it!
     
     
     
     
     
  2. Like
    Bob Cleek got a reaction from Ronald-V in Simulating Caulking between hull and deck planking   
    Just a general opinionated observation for what it's worth: 
     
    I think that the overwhelming majority of modeling details which are less than optimal are the result of overscale small details which the modeler focuses upon and obsesses over at the expense of the overall impression of reality which is the true objective of the modeling endeavor. Slightly underscale details do not similarly offend the experienced viewer's eyes because our minds, being what they are, unconsciously compensate for details that are smaller than they should be but not for those that are larger and give us a "poke in the eye." It's always better to err on the side of subtlety. When miniaturists undertake to portray a subject with the level of detail found in a ship model, the smaller the scale the more the modeler must be an "impressionist" rather than a "realist." 
     
    I've found that scale and historical accuracy should always take precedence over all else. If you do the research on scantlings for your vessel, you'll likely find that the stopping in its deck seams was narrower than a half inch. In most vessels other than naval warships maintained "Bristol fashion" with regularly holy-stoned decks, the decks will be quite dark, discolored by weathering, dirt, and the drips of pine tar and paint falling from aloft and tracked by the sticky bare feet of sailors climbing in tarred rigging softened by the hot sun.) Indeed, the deck of a working whaler would appear uniformly black from the grease spread by the rendering of blubber. The appearance of a ship's deck from a scale distance (i.e. if one were observing the prototype vessel from a full-scale distance) will very often lack the details of plank seams and fastening plugs or trunnels that so many modelers seem so determined to portray in miniature when in real life they'd be invisible or nearly so. Needless to say, carvel-hung hull plank seams wouldn't be discernable when viewed from the usual distant scale viewing distance because they were always finished fair and painted over. They weren't intended to be seen. Hull seams might become more apparent over time as the hull "worked" and became "tired," but even then they were painted over and would not show seams of contrasting paint color. 
     
    Of course, there are modeling styles that deviate from what the eye would see of the prototype vessel. The most common of these would be the "as built" framed models whose purpose is to accurately portray timbering details and are finished "bright" (unpainted) as some of the Admiralty Board models seen in the higher quality maritime museum collections. Even in these often-unplanked open-framed models, where plank seams and fastenings may be shown, proper scale may well dictate that such details are nearly invisible or only very subtly suggested. In the finest 1:48 scale museum pieces, unfinished pearwood deck planking is sometimes merely drawn with a pencil line the width of a human hair, omitting plank ends or fastenings of any kind. The viewer's eyes see only the barest suggestion of "planking" with no hint of fastenings or plank butts, but their brain correctly says "planked decks." It is this "tricking the eye" that produces the illusion of reality in fine scale models. Overscale details such as prominent fastenings and plugs, particularly when set where no shipwright ever would have put them, too close to the plank edge or even a single fastening in a plank end, and shiny polished "real copper" plates with tacks having rounded heads two scale inches in diameter giving the overall effect of a terminal case of acne, may demonstrate the modeler's dedication and patience, but to no good effect beyond that.
     
    I post this opinion not to criticize any particular modeler's efforts, but rather as an exhortation in the interests of "better modeling." We often see a  less experienced modeler proudly posting work in this forum which exhibits out-of-scale and inaccurate details, often after obviously spending a tremendous amount of time creating them. At that point, it's too late to comment gracefully on such flaws and so nobody mentions them, directly at least. Alternately, when newer modelers ask questions regarding their intentions to pursue such errors, experienced modelers circumspectly express their opinions in suggested alternative courses of action in order to avoid causing offense or hurt feelings. The result of this, together with the marketing gimmicks of some kit manufacturers ("Over 1,000 parts... includes real copper plates!") seems to only perpetuate these mistakes. So I offer these comments only generally to those who may wish to consider them. For those who might ask, "So what makes you an expert?" I can only answer, "Because these are all mistakes I've made myself!"
     
    Tom Lauria, a master modeler who has an excellent collection of YouTube videos on ship modeling, has a good video entitled Scale and the Compelling Impression. I highly recommend it!
     
     
     
     
     
  3. Like
    Bob Cleek got a reaction from John Ruy in Simulating Caulking between hull and deck planking   
    Very nicely done job! To my eye, your omission of the deck plank butts and plank fastening plugs or trunnels gives a very good effect without cluttering things up. Your nibbed planking against the covering boards is "finestkind!" That must have taken a bit of time to work out.
     
    Just a minor note: the tar, or "marine glue" in later times, which was poured hot into the deck seams is called "stopping" or more modernly "seam compound." The seam is caulked with oakum, or cotton "rope" in small craft, which is driven into the vee-shaped seam. The seam is created by planing the sides of the planks at a slight angle after they are initially fitted flush against each other. The seams are primed with paint, the caulking is driven home, and then the caulking material is soaked with thinned paint and allowed to dry. The "stopping" is then poured hot on top of the driven caulking material. The stopping is intended to protect the caulking material from the weather. The watertightness of the seam is provided by the driven caulking material and the swelling of the plank edges below the caulking seam against each other as with a wooden staved barrel. 
     
    The width of the vee-shaped seam at the outboard face of the plank is dependent upon the thickness of the plank. The planks should be tightly butted against each other at their inboard edges with the vee-shaped seam above that. The angle of the vee need only be sufficient to hold the caulking material. There are rules of thumb as to how deep, and therefore how wide, the seam has to be to hold the caulking material. I'd have to go hunting for it, but offhand my recollection is that the depth of the seam should be about half the length of the plank thickness. (It's been a while since I last hung and caulked carvel plank.) Consequently, caulking irons are made with varying thicknesses to their edges to fit the different widths of the vee-shaped caulking seams. The irons' edges are identified as to their width by the number of "creases" in the edge of the seam. The creases are lengthwise indentations on the edge of the iron which gives the iron face a corrugated surface. A larger vessel's plank seams will require a "double" or "triple crease" iron, the "double" being twice the thickness of the single crease, and so on.
     
    Ship's caulking irons in a range of sizes:
     
    Approximately 7'' long. The "ship's iron" has a larger head that a "boat iron."
    Blades are 2-1/2'' wide  
     
    "Ship's irons'" thicknesses below correspond to the seam width. The vee-shaped seam at the deck surface would be slightly wider than the properly sized iron so as to accommodate the stopping:
     
    Right to left: 
     
    1/32''  - #00      "Double aught crease iron"
    1/16'  -  #0        "Single aught crease iron."
    1/8''    - #1        "Single crease iron."  
    3/16  '-  #2        "Double crease iron"
    1/4''-     #3        "Three crease iron."
    5/16''-   #4        "Four crease iron." (Not pictured below.)
     

     
    See: Ship Caulkers and Their Tools (sydnassloot.com) and C. DREW & Co. Shipwrights Caulking Tools (numismalink.com) 
  4. Like
    Bob Cleek reacted to Dr PR in Simulating Caulking between hull and deck planking   
    Jorge,
     
    I had the same questions when working on my current model. I have no idea what the width is of the caulking between deck planks on wooden vessels, especially from several centuries ago. But I do have the advantage of serving on three modern (mid 20th century) ships, and I have the original blueprints for two of them that show deck construction.
     
    The gap between planks was 3/8 inch (9.5 mm). My model is 1:48, so the grout width would be 0.0078 inch (0.2 mm). This is about the thickness of some black construction paper (0.008 inch) that I had, so that is what I used. However, before settling on this method I did a series of experiments using six different techniques that I describe in this link:
     
    https://modelshipworld.com/topic/19611-albatros-by-dr-pr-mantua-scale-148-revenue-cutter-kitbash-about-1815/?do=findComment&comment=602855
     
    After choosing the black construction paper I added this "grout" as described here:
     
    https://modelshipworld.com/topic/19611-albatros-by-dr-pr-mantua-scale-148-revenue-cutter-kitbash-about-1815/?do=findComment&comment=603771
     
    https://modelshipworld.com/topic/19611-albatros-by-dr-pr-mantua-scale-148-revenue-cutter-kitbash-about-1815/?do=findComment&comment=605072
     
    Planking and nibbing turned out to be very easy, and the paper gave a very consistent widths with none of the mess from liquid pigments soaking into the wood grain.
     
    I made the paper width a bit greater than the plank thickness so the paper stood a bit "proud" above the planks. I then scraped the deck with a razor blade perpendicular to the wood surface (so as not to cut into the wood) and at an angle across the plank edges to scrape away the excess paper, and then sanded to get a smooth deck. Afterward I coated the deck with a clear sealer and rubbed down with #0000 steel wool. The results look very nice to my eye, and I think the effect is to scale. You can judge this for yourself.
     

     
    ****
     
    At 1:72 scale a 3/8 inch grout will be 0.0055 inch (0.13 mm) and you can probably find black paper this thick or a bit thinner.
  5. Like
    Bob Cleek reacted to Roger Pellett in Simulating Caulking between hull and deck planking   
    Not exactly an answer to the question but some might find this useful:
     
    Here is a system that I used to simulate the WHITE seam compound used in the deck seams of a US Navy WW II era motor whaleboat.
     
    1. Using my Byrnes saw, cut grooves spaced to planking width in a piece of craft plywood.  
     
    2.  Spray piece with white paint, and lightly sand using a sanding block.
     
    3.  Insert a piece of thread, color unimportant, into each groove.
     
    4.  Spray piece with Navy deck blue.
     
    5.  Remove thread, cut piece to shape and attach to model.
     
    Results:
     

  6. Like
    Bob Cleek reacted to allanyed in Simulating Caulking between hull and deck planking   
    Jorge,
    What scale are you working on? If you are not happy with a pencil or marker, black tissue paper that you can find in most any craft store works very well for smaller scales.  There is no seepage so the line is constant.  It is visible but subtle.   If you are working at 1:48 or larger black construction paper works very well.   Both can be glued with white or yellow PVA or even matte medium.  PVA (wood) glue for wood to plastic does not work well.  If you do go with the plastic, epoxy or polyurethane glue should work well.   I am guessing trimming plastic would be difficult.  If you are working very small scales 1:96 or so it may be better not to use anything as it could look overdone.   
    Allan  
  7. Like
    Bob Cleek reacted to wefalck in Pore filler lacquer Recommended   
    Decks on real ships were bare wood. So, on a model no 'finish coat' should be applied. Sanding sealer and then rubbing down the deck with fine sandpaper and/or fine steel wool are sufficient.
  8. Like
    Bob Cleek got a reaction from mtaylor in How to clean unsightly copper tarnish   
    Well, never was there ever a ship with a completely shiny coppered bottom, so I suppose your choice to have it shine is a stylistic one.  I've polished more than my share of brass over the years. Here's a review of options from the really tough jobs to the easy ones. I wrote this before I saw BenD's post. If he says Brasso alone did that job for him, I'd definitely say, go for it! The "rub" is the rub, though. If your plating won't stand up to the rubbing that polishing requires, some of these products which work chemically rather than mechanically with an abrasive may be helpful.
     
    The first caveat is that I have no idea what you used to glue the plates down, so I can't say for sure that they won't come falling off if you just dip the whole hull in a de-oxidizing solution. That would be a relatively easy fix, put perhaps wreak havoc with the hull structure itself if it's plank on frame or bulkhead rather than solid wood. These suggestions should be taken with a grain of salt (which I think will also work) and always, always test these methods out on a sample piece before using them on the hull itself. 
     
    All of these methods employ chemicals which breakdown the copper oxide tarnish. They work chemically and hard, rough rubbing should not be necessary. Repeated applications will be helpful in removing stubborn tarnish as there is some degree of "neutralizing" as each does its work. Take your choice, in order of ascending effectiveness:
     
    1. Mix five parts water, one part vinegar, and add salt until the salt stops dissolving in the mix. Apply to the copper surface with a soft cloth to clean off the copper oxide, then rinse well. A soft toothbrush or cotton swab can be used on uneven surfaces. This is the cheapest, and probably mildest solution, but also the least effective.
     
    2. Use Simple Green all-purpose cleaner. It's a great cleaner and will also remove copper oxidation.  It's a mild liquid "soap" with a pleasant aroma commonly available anywhere cleaning supplies are sold. It contains a mild amount of citric acid. It's not particularly aggressive, but repeated applications will remove copper oxidation. See: https://www.walmart.com/ip/Simple-Green-All-Purpose-Cleaner-Concentrate-Spray-Bottle-Original-32-fl-oz/22301219?wl13=1755&selectedSellerId=0&http://clickserve.dartsearch.net/link/click?lid=92700060762254883&ds_s_kwgid=58700006715445296&ds_s_inventory_feed_id=97700000003583668&ds_a_cid=654818135&ds_a_caid=13956209185&ds_a_agid=126452889113&ds_a_lid=pla-1392082700544&ds_a_cid=116919406&ds_a_caid=361575031&ds_a_agid=120066732282
     
    3. Use Barkeeper's Friend copper cleaner available online or from many stores. It's sold for polishing kitchen pots and pans. It comes in two forms, powdered and as a cream. Pick your own poison. I find the two equally acceptable. Follow the instructions on the container. Apply to the copper surface with a soft cloth to clean off the copper oxide, then rinse. As with any of the acidic cleaners, the longer it stays on and wet, the longer it works. You won't get far expecting instant results with acidic cleaners. Give them time to work. Barkeeper's Friend recommends waiting a full minute before rubbing it off, as I recall. A soft toothbrush or cotton swab can be used on uneven surfaces. This product is not as aggressive as a stronger solution of citric or oxalic acid and probably contains some other "magic ingredients" that their advertisements will tell you make their product better than the rest. See: Amazon.com: Bar Keepers Friend Powder Cleanser (2 x 12 oz) Multipurpose Cleaner, Stain & Rust Remover for Bathroom, Kitchen & Outdoor Use on Stainless Steel, Aluminum, Brass, Tile, Ceramic, Porcelain & More : Health & Household and Amazon.com: Bar Keepers Friend Soft Cleanser Liquid (26 oz - English/Spanish) - Multipurpose Cleaner & Rust Stain Remover for Stainless Steel, Porcelain, Ceramic Tile, Copper, Brass, and More (2) : Health & Household
     
    4.  Use CLR Cleaner ("Calcium, Lime, and Rust") as directed on the bottle. This product is sold primarily for removing rust and calcium deposits built up on plumbing fixtures. It is available in most hardware stores. It is a harsh chemical product that contains citric, gluconic, lactic, glycolic, and sulfamic acid. Don't ask me what all these acids are for, but this stuff is definitely the thermonuclear option! Use as directed on the bottle. It can be diluted with water for a less aggressive effect. You may want to experiment with varying strengths to see which works best. As with the rest, a soft cloth, toothbrush, or cotton swab should serve to apply the stuff. See: Amazon.com: CLR PRO CL4PROEA Calcium, Lime and Rust Remover, 28 oz Bottle : Health & Household
     
    5. Mix a solution of citric or oxalic acid (available in paint and hardware stores as "wood bleach) and water following the instructions on the container. Apply to the copper surface with a soft cloth to clean off the copper oxide and rinse off. A soft toothbrush or cotton swabs can be used on uneven surfaces. Wear surgical gloves when handling this mild acidic solution for extended periods of time. It won't harm bare skin, but prolonged exposure will cause delayed burns of the sensitive tissues under your fingernails, causing indescribable agony for an interminable couple of days following overexposure. (Don't ask me how I know this!) See: Buy the Savogran 10501 Wood Bleach, Concentrated ~ 12 ounces | Hardware World and Amazon.com: Pure Original Ingredients Citric Acid (1 lb) Eco-Friendly Packaging, Natural, Food Safe : Health & Household
     
    After removal of the oxidation, you may wish to polish the copper to a higher shine. You may wish to try any copper polish for the job before using "the hard stuff" above. In fact, if the oxidation is slight, you may accomplish the finish you want using a copper polish alone. However, I may will run into some difficulty in trying to do so, though, because most polishes contain mild very abrasives and work by abrading the surface and your surface is decidedly not smooth. Their polishes' effectiveness will depend upon the surface's ability to withstand rubbing. Any copper polish is fine. Brasso (a cream,) Flitz (a paste or cream,) and Nevr-dull (an impregnated cotton wadding and USN bosuns' favorite) are all proven winners and folks each have their own preferences. See: Amazon.com: Brasso Metal Polish, 8 oz Bottle for Brass, Copper, Stainless Steel, Chrome, Aluminum, Pewter & Bronze, 8 oz (Pack of 3) : Health & Household, Amazon.com: Flitz Multi-Purpose Polish and Cleaner Paste for Metal, Plastic, Fiberglass, Aluminum, Jewelry, Sterling Silver: Great for Headlight Restoration + Rust Remover, Made in the USA 1.76 Ounce (Pack of 1) : Health & Household, and Amazon.com: Nevr Dull NEVER DULL POLISH 5OZ : Health & Household.
     
    (Full disclosure: I don't own any Amazon stock. I just use their links to identify the stuff. All of these products should be available in any hardware store or even many supermarkets.  )
     
    After you've polished your coppered bottom (making sure there's no polish residue remaining on the surface... perhaps easier said than done,) it will immediately begin to tarnish again, so coat it with a real clear gloss lacquer (and not a varnish which can yellow.) This is not a job for weak "eco-friendly" coatings. It's worth risking cancer for. (Just kidding... use only in a well-ventilated area... and all that.)  Apply in multiple light coats, rather than thick coats. It's sold in spray cans if you want to make your life easier. You must thoroughly coat the surface with the lacquer, though. Even the slightest uncovered area will continue to tarnish and look terrible against the contrasting bright shiny polished copper. In fairness, I have to add that I've seen a lot of professionally lacquered brightly shined copper and brass items over the years and it seems that after a certain number of years, depending upon the local environment, they tend to develop tarnished black "spots," sometimes called "the pox," beneath the lacquer. This is probably a function of oxygen permeating the coating in some fashion. Manufacturers always lacquer coat their bright work because that keeps it looking "just polished" on the shop shelves and that can be many years, but, eventually, sooner or later, "the pox" strikes and there's no cure but to strip the lacquer from the piece entirely and keep it "bare" and polished regularly. This actually looks better than the factory lacquer because the detail doesn't polish as well and is thereby highlighted, but you have to keep up with the polishing. In the case of a rough-surfaced delicate miniature coppering job, you will probably never be able to strip it and refinish it short of destroying it. This will be your one shot at it.
     
    I must say that trying to polish a rough-textured surface like you've got there may prove to be an exercise in futility. You will have to polish it all, including every nook and cranny. Alternately, you may achieve a rather nice antiqued effect if the polishing isn't uniform, with darker, tarnished areas in the edges of the plates accenting them visually. 
     
    Do remember to experiment and test your choice of methods before you hit the model itself. This is the sort of thing that is really easy to end up looking a lot worse than better if it goes sideways. 
     
    I get it that you like "shiny," but you will not go wrong if you allow your copper to tarnish naturally to a "used penny" color. That's how it looks in real life after it's been in the air for a while. Exposed for longer and it will become green like the Statue of Liberty.
     

     
     
    Excellent forum post on painting faux coppered bottoms: 
     
     
     
     
  9. Like
    Bob Cleek got a reaction from BenD in How to clean unsightly copper tarnish   
    Well, never was there ever a ship with a completely shiny coppered bottom, so I suppose your choice to have it shine is a stylistic one.  I've polished more than my share of brass over the years. Here's a review of options from the really tough jobs to the easy ones. I wrote this before I saw BenD's post. If he says Brasso alone did that job for him, I'd definitely say, go for it! The "rub" is the rub, though. If your plating won't stand up to the rubbing that polishing requires, some of these products which work chemically rather than mechanically with an abrasive may be helpful.
     
    The first caveat is that I have no idea what you used to glue the plates down, so I can't say for sure that they won't come falling off if you just dip the whole hull in a de-oxidizing solution. That would be a relatively easy fix, put perhaps wreak havoc with the hull structure itself if it's plank on frame or bulkhead rather than solid wood. These suggestions should be taken with a grain of salt (which I think will also work) and always, always test these methods out on a sample piece before using them on the hull itself. 
     
    All of these methods employ chemicals which breakdown the copper oxide tarnish. They work chemically and hard, rough rubbing should not be necessary. Repeated applications will be helpful in removing stubborn tarnish as there is some degree of "neutralizing" as each does its work. Take your choice, in order of ascending effectiveness:
     
    1. Mix five parts water, one part vinegar, and add salt until the salt stops dissolving in the mix. Apply to the copper surface with a soft cloth to clean off the copper oxide, then rinse well. A soft toothbrush or cotton swab can be used on uneven surfaces. This is the cheapest, and probably mildest solution, but also the least effective.
     
    2. Use Simple Green all-purpose cleaner. It's a great cleaner and will also remove copper oxidation.  It's a mild liquid "soap" with a pleasant aroma commonly available anywhere cleaning supplies are sold. It contains a mild amount of citric acid. It's not particularly aggressive, but repeated applications will remove copper oxidation. See: https://www.walmart.com/ip/Simple-Green-All-Purpose-Cleaner-Concentrate-Spray-Bottle-Original-32-fl-oz/22301219?wl13=1755&selectedSellerId=0&http://clickserve.dartsearch.net/link/click?lid=92700060762254883&ds_s_kwgid=58700006715445296&ds_s_inventory_feed_id=97700000003583668&ds_a_cid=654818135&ds_a_caid=13956209185&ds_a_agid=126452889113&ds_a_lid=pla-1392082700544&ds_a_cid=116919406&ds_a_caid=361575031&ds_a_agid=120066732282
     
    3. Use Barkeeper's Friend copper cleaner available online or from many stores. It's sold for polishing kitchen pots and pans. It comes in two forms, powdered and as a cream. Pick your own poison. I find the two equally acceptable. Follow the instructions on the container. Apply to the copper surface with a soft cloth to clean off the copper oxide, then rinse. As with any of the acidic cleaners, the longer it stays on and wet, the longer it works. You won't get far expecting instant results with acidic cleaners. Give them time to work. Barkeeper's Friend recommends waiting a full minute before rubbing it off, as I recall. A soft toothbrush or cotton swab can be used on uneven surfaces. This product is not as aggressive as a stronger solution of citric or oxalic acid and probably contains some other "magic ingredients" that their advertisements will tell you make their product better than the rest. See: Amazon.com: Bar Keepers Friend Powder Cleanser (2 x 12 oz) Multipurpose Cleaner, Stain & Rust Remover for Bathroom, Kitchen & Outdoor Use on Stainless Steel, Aluminum, Brass, Tile, Ceramic, Porcelain & More : Health & Household and Amazon.com: Bar Keepers Friend Soft Cleanser Liquid (26 oz - English/Spanish) - Multipurpose Cleaner & Rust Stain Remover for Stainless Steel, Porcelain, Ceramic Tile, Copper, Brass, and More (2) : Health & Household
     
    4.  Use CLR Cleaner ("Calcium, Lime, and Rust") as directed on the bottle. This product is sold primarily for removing rust and calcium deposits built up on plumbing fixtures. It is available in most hardware stores. It is a harsh chemical product that contains citric, gluconic, lactic, glycolic, and sulfamic acid. Don't ask me what all these acids are for, but this stuff is definitely the thermonuclear option! Use as directed on the bottle. It can be diluted with water for a less aggressive effect. You may want to experiment with varying strengths to see which works best. As with the rest, a soft cloth, toothbrush, or cotton swab should serve to apply the stuff. See: Amazon.com: CLR PRO CL4PROEA Calcium, Lime and Rust Remover, 28 oz Bottle : Health & Household
     
    5. Mix a solution of citric or oxalic acid (available in paint and hardware stores as "wood bleach) and water following the instructions on the container. Apply to the copper surface with a soft cloth to clean off the copper oxide and rinse off. A soft toothbrush or cotton swabs can be used on uneven surfaces. Wear surgical gloves when handling this mild acidic solution for extended periods of time. It won't harm bare skin, but prolonged exposure will cause delayed burns of the sensitive tissues under your fingernails, causing indescribable agony for an interminable couple of days following overexposure. (Don't ask me how I know this!) See: Buy the Savogran 10501 Wood Bleach, Concentrated ~ 12 ounces | Hardware World and Amazon.com: Pure Original Ingredients Citric Acid (1 lb) Eco-Friendly Packaging, Natural, Food Safe : Health & Household
     
    After removal of the oxidation, you may wish to polish the copper to a higher shine. You may wish to try any copper polish for the job before using "the hard stuff" above. In fact, if the oxidation is slight, you may accomplish the finish you want using a copper polish alone. However, I may will run into some difficulty in trying to do so, though, because most polishes contain mild very abrasives and work by abrading the surface and your surface is decidedly not smooth. Their polishes' effectiveness will depend upon the surface's ability to withstand rubbing. Any copper polish is fine. Brasso (a cream,) Flitz (a paste or cream,) and Nevr-dull (an impregnated cotton wadding and USN bosuns' favorite) are all proven winners and folks each have their own preferences. See: Amazon.com: Brasso Metal Polish, 8 oz Bottle for Brass, Copper, Stainless Steel, Chrome, Aluminum, Pewter & Bronze, 8 oz (Pack of 3) : Health & Household, Amazon.com: Flitz Multi-Purpose Polish and Cleaner Paste for Metal, Plastic, Fiberglass, Aluminum, Jewelry, Sterling Silver: Great for Headlight Restoration + Rust Remover, Made in the USA 1.76 Ounce (Pack of 1) : Health & Household, and Amazon.com: Nevr Dull NEVER DULL POLISH 5OZ : Health & Household.
     
    (Full disclosure: I don't own any Amazon stock. I just use their links to identify the stuff. All of these products should be available in any hardware store or even many supermarkets.  )
     
    After you've polished your coppered bottom (making sure there's no polish residue remaining on the surface... perhaps easier said than done,) it will immediately begin to tarnish again, so coat it with a real clear gloss lacquer (and not a varnish which can yellow.) This is not a job for weak "eco-friendly" coatings. It's worth risking cancer for. (Just kidding... use only in a well-ventilated area... and all that.)  Apply in multiple light coats, rather than thick coats. It's sold in spray cans if you want to make your life easier. You must thoroughly coat the surface with the lacquer, though. Even the slightest uncovered area will continue to tarnish and look terrible against the contrasting bright shiny polished copper. In fairness, I have to add that I've seen a lot of professionally lacquered brightly shined copper and brass items over the years and it seems that after a certain number of years, depending upon the local environment, they tend to develop tarnished black "spots," sometimes called "the pox," beneath the lacquer. This is probably a function of oxygen permeating the coating in some fashion. Manufacturers always lacquer coat their bright work because that keeps it looking "just polished" on the shop shelves and that can be many years, but, eventually, sooner or later, "the pox" strikes and there's no cure but to strip the lacquer from the piece entirely and keep it "bare" and polished regularly. This actually looks better than the factory lacquer because the detail doesn't polish as well and is thereby highlighted, but you have to keep up with the polishing. In the case of a rough-surfaced delicate miniature coppering job, you will probably never be able to strip it and refinish it short of destroying it. This will be your one shot at it.
     
    I must say that trying to polish a rough-textured surface like you've got there may prove to be an exercise in futility. You will have to polish it all, including every nook and cranny. Alternately, you may achieve a rather nice antiqued effect if the polishing isn't uniform, with darker, tarnished areas in the edges of the plates accenting them visually. 
     
    Do remember to experiment and test your choice of methods before you hit the model itself. This is the sort of thing that is really easy to end up looking a lot worse than better if it goes sideways. 
     
    I get it that you like "shiny," but you will not go wrong if you allow your copper to tarnish naturally to a "used penny" color. That's how it looks in real life after it's been in the air for a while. Exposed for longer and it will become green like the Statue of Liberty.
     

     
     
    Excellent forum post on painting faux coppered bottoms: 
     
     
     
     
  10. Like
    Bob Cleek got a reaction from Archi in Help with these clamps   
    Have you tried binder clips? Handy and cheap. Lots of different sizes available.
     

  11. Like
    Bob Cleek reacted to allanyed in How to clean unsightly copper tarnish   
    Picture of USS Constitution copper plate says it all regarding color.  I realize many folks won't like the look of weathered copper, but it is another choice.  Note the number and size of the nail holes rather than the over scale rivet-like bumps  seen on some model plating.   Can the plates with bumps be reversed so as to look more realistic with nail dents versus the look of rivets which were never used?  Some manufacturers have gone to laser marks that etch small dents so there are no bumps and look much more realistic.
    Allan
     

  12. Like
    Bob Cleek got a reaction from allanyed in How to clean unsightly copper tarnish   
    Well, never was there ever a ship with a completely shiny coppered bottom, so I suppose your choice to have it shine is a stylistic one.  I've polished more than my share of brass over the years. Here's a review of options from the really tough jobs to the easy ones. I wrote this before I saw BenD's post. If he says Brasso alone did that job for him, I'd definitely say, go for it! The "rub" is the rub, though. If your plating won't stand up to the rubbing that polishing requires, some of these products which work chemically rather than mechanically with an abrasive may be helpful.
     
    The first caveat is that I have no idea what you used to glue the plates down, so I can't say for sure that they won't come falling off if you just dip the whole hull in a de-oxidizing solution. That would be a relatively easy fix, put perhaps wreak havoc with the hull structure itself if it's plank on frame or bulkhead rather than solid wood. These suggestions should be taken with a grain of salt (which I think will also work) and always, always test these methods out on a sample piece before using them on the hull itself. 
     
    All of these methods employ chemicals which breakdown the copper oxide tarnish. They work chemically and hard, rough rubbing should not be necessary. Repeated applications will be helpful in removing stubborn tarnish as there is some degree of "neutralizing" as each does its work. Take your choice, in order of ascending effectiveness:
     
    1. Mix five parts water, one part vinegar, and add salt until the salt stops dissolving in the mix. Apply to the copper surface with a soft cloth to clean off the copper oxide, then rinse well. A soft toothbrush or cotton swab can be used on uneven surfaces. This is the cheapest, and probably mildest solution, but also the least effective.
     
    2. Use Simple Green all-purpose cleaner. It's a great cleaner and will also remove copper oxidation.  It's a mild liquid "soap" with a pleasant aroma commonly available anywhere cleaning supplies are sold. It contains a mild amount of citric acid. It's not particularly aggressive, but repeated applications will remove copper oxidation. See: https://www.walmart.com/ip/Simple-Green-All-Purpose-Cleaner-Concentrate-Spray-Bottle-Original-32-fl-oz/22301219?wl13=1755&selectedSellerId=0&http://clickserve.dartsearch.net/link/click?lid=92700060762254883&ds_s_kwgid=58700006715445296&ds_s_inventory_feed_id=97700000003583668&ds_a_cid=654818135&ds_a_caid=13956209185&ds_a_agid=126452889113&ds_a_lid=pla-1392082700544&ds_a_cid=116919406&ds_a_caid=361575031&ds_a_agid=120066732282
     
    3. Use Barkeeper's Friend copper cleaner available online or from many stores. It's sold for polishing kitchen pots and pans. It comes in two forms, powdered and as a cream. Pick your own poison. I find the two equally acceptable. Follow the instructions on the container. Apply to the copper surface with a soft cloth to clean off the copper oxide, then rinse. As with any of the acidic cleaners, the longer it stays on and wet, the longer it works. You won't get far expecting instant results with acidic cleaners. Give them time to work. Barkeeper's Friend recommends waiting a full minute before rubbing it off, as I recall. A soft toothbrush or cotton swab can be used on uneven surfaces. This product is not as aggressive as a stronger solution of citric or oxalic acid and probably contains some other "magic ingredients" that their advertisements will tell you make their product better than the rest. See: Amazon.com: Bar Keepers Friend Powder Cleanser (2 x 12 oz) Multipurpose Cleaner, Stain & Rust Remover for Bathroom, Kitchen & Outdoor Use on Stainless Steel, Aluminum, Brass, Tile, Ceramic, Porcelain & More : Health & Household and Amazon.com: Bar Keepers Friend Soft Cleanser Liquid (26 oz - English/Spanish) - Multipurpose Cleaner & Rust Stain Remover for Stainless Steel, Porcelain, Ceramic Tile, Copper, Brass, and More (2) : Health & Household
     
    4.  Use CLR Cleaner ("Calcium, Lime, and Rust") as directed on the bottle. This product is sold primarily for removing rust and calcium deposits built up on plumbing fixtures. It is available in most hardware stores. It is a harsh chemical product that contains citric, gluconic, lactic, glycolic, and sulfamic acid. Don't ask me what all these acids are for, but this stuff is definitely the thermonuclear option! Use as directed on the bottle. It can be diluted with water for a less aggressive effect. You may want to experiment with varying strengths to see which works best. As with the rest, a soft cloth, toothbrush, or cotton swab should serve to apply the stuff. See: Amazon.com: CLR PRO CL4PROEA Calcium, Lime and Rust Remover, 28 oz Bottle : Health & Household
     
    5. Mix a solution of citric or oxalic acid (available in paint and hardware stores as "wood bleach) and water following the instructions on the container. Apply to the copper surface with a soft cloth to clean off the copper oxide and rinse off. A soft toothbrush or cotton swabs can be used on uneven surfaces. Wear surgical gloves when handling this mild acidic solution for extended periods of time. It won't harm bare skin, but prolonged exposure will cause delayed burns of the sensitive tissues under your fingernails, causing indescribable agony for an interminable couple of days following overexposure. (Don't ask me how I know this!) See: Buy the Savogran 10501 Wood Bleach, Concentrated ~ 12 ounces | Hardware World and Amazon.com: Pure Original Ingredients Citric Acid (1 lb) Eco-Friendly Packaging, Natural, Food Safe : Health & Household
     
    After removal of the oxidation, you may wish to polish the copper to a higher shine. You may wish to try any copper polish for the job before using "the hard stuff" above. In fact, if the oxidation is slight, you may accomplish the finish you want using a copper polish alone. However, I may will run into some difficulty in trying to do so, though, because most polishes contain mild very abrasives and work by abrading the surface and your surface is decidedly not smooth. Their polishes' effectiveness will depend upon the surface's ability to withstand rubbing. Any copper polish is fine. Brasso (a cream,) Flitz (a paste or cream,) and Nevr-dull (an impregnated cotton wadding and USN bosuns' favorite) are all proven winners and folks each have their own preferences. See: Amazon.com: Brasso Metal Polish, 8 oz Bottle for Brass, Copper, Stainless Steel, Chrome, Aluminum, Pewter & Bronze, 8 oz (Pack of 3) : Health & Household, Amazon.com: Flitz Multi-Purpose Polish and Cleaner Paste for Metal, Plastic, Fiberglass, Aluminum, Jewelry, Sterling Silver: Great for Headlight Restoration + Rust Remover, Made in the USA 1.76 Ounce (Pack of 1) : Health & Household, and Amazon.com: Nevr Dull NEVER DULL POLISH 5OZ : Health & Household.
     
    (Full disclosure: I don't own any Amazon stock. I just use their links to identify the stuff. All of these products should be available in any hardware store or even many supermarkets.  )
     
    After you've polished your coppered bottom (making sure there's no polish residue remaining on the surface... perhaps easier said than done,) it will immediately begin to tarnish again, so coat it with a real clear gloss lacquer (and not a varnish which can yellow.) This is not a job for weak "eco-friendly" coatings. It's worth risking cancer for. (Just kidding... use only in a well-ventilated area... and all that.)  Apply in multiple light coats, rather than thick coats. It's sold in spray cans if you want to make your life easier. You must thoroughly coat the surface with the lacquer, though. Even the slightest uncovered area will continue to tarnish and look terrible against the contrasting bright shiny polished copper. In fairness, I have to add that I've seen a lot of professionally lacquered brightly shined copper and brass items over the years and it seems that after a certain number of years, depending upon the local environment, they tend to develop tarnished black "spots," sometimes called "the pox," beneath the lacquer. This is probably a function of oxygen permeating the coating in some fashion. Manufacturers always lacquer coat their bright work because that keeps it looking "just polished" on the shop shelves and that can be many years, but, eventually, sooner or later, "the pox" strikes and there's no cure but to strip the lacquer from the piece entirely and keep it "bare" and polished regularly. This actually looks better than the factory lacquer because the detail doesn't polish as well and is thereby highlighted, but you have to keep up with the polishing. In the case of a rough-surfaced delicate miniature coppering job, you will probably never be able to strip it and refinish it short of destroying it. This will be your one shot at it.
     
    I must say that trying to polish a rough-textured surface like you've got there may prove to be an exercise in futility. You will have to polish it all, including every nook and cranny. Alternately, you may achieve a rather nice antiqued effect if the polishing isn't uniform, with darker, tarnished areas in the edges of the plates accenting them visually. 
     
    Do remember to experiment and test your choice of methods before you hit the model itself. This is the sort of thing that is really easy to end up looking a lot worse than better if it goes sideways. 
     
    I get it that you like "shiny," but you will not go wrong if you allow your copper to tarnish naturally to a "used penny" color. That's how it looks in real life after it's been in the air for a while. Exposed for longer and it will become green like the Statue of Liberty.
     

     
     
    Excellent forum post on painting faux coppered bottoms: 
     
     
     
     
  13. Like
    Bob Cleek got a reaction from DaveBaxt in How to clean unsightly copper tarnish   
    Well, never was there ever a ship with a completely shiny coppered bottom, so I suppose your choice to have it shine is a stylistic one.  I've polished more than my share of brass over the years. Here's a review of options from the really tough jobs to the easy ones. I wrote this before I saw BenD's post. If he says Brasso alone did that job for him, I'd definitely say, go for it! The "rub" is the rub, though. If your plating won't stand up to the rubbing that polishing requires, some of these products which work chemically rather than mechanically with an abrasive may be helpful.
     
    The first caveat is that I have no idea what you used to glue the plates down, so I can't say for sure that they won't come falling off if you just dip the whole hull in a de-oxidizing solution. That would be a relatively easy fix, put perhaps wreak havoc with the hull structure itself if it's plank on frame or bulkhead rather than solid wood. These suggestions should be taken with a grain of salt (which I think will also work) and always, always test these methods out on a sample piece before using them on the hull itself. 
     
    All of these methods employ chemicals which breakdown the copper oxide tarnish. They work chemically and hard, rough rubbing should not be necessary. Repeated applications will be helpful in removing stubborn tarnish as there is some degree of "neutralizing" as each does its work. Take your choice, in order of ascending effectiveness:
     
    1. Mix five parts water, one part vinegar, and add salt until the salt stops dissolving in the mix. Apply to the copper surface with a soft cloth to clean off the copper oxide, then rinse well. A soft toothbrush or cotton swab can be used on uneven surfaces. This is the cheapest, and probably mildest solution, but also the least effective.
     
    2. Use Simple Green all-purpose cleaner. It's a great cleaner and will also remove copper oxidation.  It's a mild liquid "soap" with a pleasant aroma commonly available anywhere cleaning supplies are sold. It contains a mild amount of citric acid. It's not particularly aggressive, but repeated applications will remove copper oxidation. See: https://www.walmart.com/ip/Simple-Green-All-Purpose-Cleaner-Concentrate-Spray-Bottle-Original-32-fl-oz/22301219?wl13=1755&selectedSellerId=0&http://clickserve.dartsearch.net/link/click?lid=92700060762254883&ds_s_kwgid=58700006715445296&ds_s_inventory_feed_id=97700000003583668&ds_a_cid=654818135&ds_a_caid=13956209185&ds_a_agid=126452889113&ds_a_lid=pla-1392082700544&ds_a_cid=116919406&ds_a_caid=361575031&ds_a_agid=120066732282
     
    3. Use Barkeeper's Friend copper cleaner available online or from many stores. It's sold for polishing kitchen pots and pans. It comes in two forms, powdered and as a cream. Pick your own poison. I find the two equally acceptable. Follow the instructions on the container. Apply to the copper surface with a soft cloth to clean off the copper oxide, then rinse. As with any of the acidic cleaners, the longer it stays on and wet, the longer it works. You won't get far expecting instant results with acidic cleaners. Give them time to work. Barkeeper's Friend recommends waiting a full minute before rubbing it off, as I recall. A soft toothbrush or cotton swab can be used on uneven surfaces. This product is not as aggressive as a stronger solution of citric or oxalic acid and probably contains some other "magic ingredients" that their advertisements will tell you make their product better than the rest. See: Amazon.com: Bar Keepers Friend Powder Cleanser (2 x 12 oz) Multipurpose Cleaner, Stain & Rust Remover for Bathroom, Kitchen & Outdoor Use on Stainless Steel, Aluminum, Brass, Tile, Ceramic, Porcelain & More : Health & Household and Amazon.com: Bar Keepers Friend Soft Cleanser Liquid (26 oz - English/Spanish) - Multipurpose Cleaner & Rust Stain Remover for Stainless Steel, Porcelain, Ceramic Tile, Copper, Brass, and More (2) : Health & Household
     
    4.  Use CLR Cleaner ("Calcium, Lime, and Rust") as directed on the bottle. This product is sold primarily for removing rust and calcium deposits built up on plumbing fixtures. It is available in most hardware stores. It is a harsh chemical product that contains citric, gluconic, lactic, glycolic, and sulfamic acid. Don't ask me what all these acids are for, but this stuff is definitely the thermonuclear option! Use as directed on the bottle. It can be diluted with water for a less aggressive effect. You may want to experiment with varying strengths to see which works best. As with the rest, a soft cloth, toothbrush, or cotton swab should serve to apply the stuff. See: Amazon.com: CLR PRO CL4PROEA Calcium, Lime and Rust Remover, 28 oz Bottle : Health & Household
     
    5. Mix a solution of citric or oxalic acid (available in paint and hardware stores as "wood bleach) and water following the instructions on the container. Apply to the copper surface with a soft cloth to clean off the copper oxide and rinse off. A soft toothbrush or cotton swabs can be used on uneven surfaces. Wear surgical gloves when handling this mild acidic solution for extended periods of time. It won't harm bare skin, but prolonged exposure will cause delayed burns of the sensitive tissues under your fingernails, causing indescribable agony for an interminable couple of days following overexposure. (Don't ask me how I know this!) See: Buy the Savogran 10501 Wood Bleach, Concentrated ~ 12 ounces | Hardware World and Amazon.com: Pure Original Ingredients Citric Acid (1 lb) Eco-Friendly Packaging, Natural, Food Safe : Health & Household
     
    After removal of the oxidation, you may wish to polish the copper to a higher shine. You may wish to try any copper polish for the job before using "the hard stuff" above. In fact, if the oxidation is slight, you may accomplish the finish you want using a copper polish alone. However, I may will run into some difficulty in trying to do so, though, because most polishes contain mild very abrasives and work by abrading the surface and your surface is decidedly not smooth. Their polishes' effectiveness will depend upon the surface's ability to withstand rubbing. Any copper polish is fine. Brasso (a cream,) Flitz (a paste or cream,) and Nevr-dull (an impregnated cotton wadding and USN bosuns' favorite) are all proven winners and folks each have their own preferences. See: Amazon.com: Brasso Metal Polish, 8 oz Bottle for Brass, Copper, Stainless Steel, Chrome, Aluminum, Pewter & Bronze, 8 oz (Pack of 3) : Health & Household, Amazon.com: Flitz Multi-Purpose Polish and Cleaner Paste for Metal, Plastic, Fiberglass, Aluminum, Jewelry, Sterling Silver: Great for Headlight Restoration + Rust Remover, Made in the USA 1.76 Ounce (Pack of 1) : Health & Household, and Amazon.com: Nevr Dull NEVER DULL POLISH 5OZ : Health & Household.
     
    (Full disclosure: I don't own any Amazon stock. I just use their links to identify the stuff. All of these products should be available in any hardware store or even many supermarkets.  )
     
    After you've polished your coppered bottom (making sure there's no polish residue remaining on the surface... perhaps easier said than done,) it will immediately begin to tarnish again, so coat it with a real clear gloss lacquer (and not a varnish which can yellow.) This is not a job for weak "eco-friendly" coatings. It's worth risking cancer for. (Just kidding... use only in a well-ventilated area... and all that.)  Apply in multiple light coats, rather than thick coats. It's sold in spray cans if you want to make your life easier. You must thoroughly coat the surface with the lacquer, though. Even the slightest uncovered area will continue to tarnish and look terrible against the contrasting bright shiny polished copper. In fairness, I have to add that I've seen a lot of professionally lacquered brightly shined copper and brass items over the years and it seems that after a certain number of years, depending upon the local environment, they tend to develop tarnished black "spots," sometimes called "the pox," beneath the lacquer. This is probably a function of oxygen permeating the coating in some fashion. Manufacturers always lacquer coat their bright work because that keeps it looking "just polished" on the shop shelves and that can be many years, but, eventually, sooner or later, "the pox" strikes and there's no cure but to strip the lacquer from the piece entirely and keep it "bare" and polished regularly. This actually looks better than the factory lacquer because the detail doesn't polish as well and is thereby highlighted, but you have to keep up with the polishing. In the case of a rough-surfaced delicate miniature coppering job, you will probably never be able to strip it and refinish it short of destroying it. This will be your one shot at it.
     
    I must say that trying to polish a rough-textured surface like you've got there may prove to be an exercise in futility. You will have to polish it all, including every nook and cranny. Alternately, you may achieve a rather nice antiqued effect if the polishing isn't uniform, with darker, tarnished areas in the edges of the plates accenting them visually. 
     
    Do remember to experiment and test your choice of methods before you hit the model itself. This is the sort of thing that is really easy to end up looking a lot worse than better if it goes sideways. 
     
    I get it that you like "shiny," but you will not go wrong if you allow your copper to tarnish naturally to a "used penny" color. That's how it looks in real life after it's been in the air for a while. Exposed for longer and it will become green like the Statue of Liberty.
     

     
     
    Excellent forum post on painting faux coppered bottoms: 
     
     
     
     
  14. Like
    Bob Cleek reacted to FluKanuck in How to clean unsightly copper tarnish   
    Would love to mark you both as the solution thank you!
     
    I've glued each one with CA glue. My wife actually has barkeepers friends copper stuff, so I will give that a shot first. 
    Thank you both for your answers! I know they were weathered in real life, but I want mine to be shiny
  15. Like
    Bob Cleek got a reaction from Rik Thistle in Interesting knot tying gizmo.   
    I came across this interesting gizmo online. It's designed to tie snelling knots on fishing hooks or to tie loops in fishing line. I wonder if anybody has any experience with using one for model ship rigging. It seems that a nice small scale "hangman's noose" could be tied with it. That might make stropping small rope-stropped blocks, etc., a much easier task. ... Or not? Anybody know? 
     
    See: https://www.lilybady.com/products/hooks?fbclid=IwAR0pQEdMc-qHnEvZ5kg6zR-34OO9sMP9zTNAX9NkKNJm6fguHtPssSGp1I4 for full particulars of the thing. Fifteen bucks online. 
     

     

     

     
     
     
  16. Like
    Bob Cleek got a reaction from thibaultron in Interesting knot tying gizmo.   
    Sure. It happens all the time. You have to use one of the price-comparing apps to find out where the lowest price can be found. The Chinese manufacturers do it all the time. The buyer should beware of imitations, though. They might look exactly like the higher priced one and yet be of far inferior quality. With much of this sort of stuff, it is fortunately cheap enough that you can take a chance without getting hurt much if it turns out not to be as advertised.
  17. Like
    Bob Cleek got a reaction from thibaultron in Interesting knot tying gizmo.   
    I came across this interesting gizmo online. It's designed to tie snelling knots on fishing hooks or to tie loops in fishing line. I wonder if anybody has any experience with using one for model ship rigging. It seems that a nice small scale "hangman's noose" could be tied with it. That might make stropping small rope-stropped blocks, etc., a much easier task. ... Or not? Anybody know? 
     
    See: https://www.lilybady.com/products/hooks?fbclid=IwAR0pQEdMc-qHnEvZ5kg6zR-34OO9sMP9zTNAX9NkKNJm6fguHtPssSGp1I4 for full particulars of the thing. Fifteen bucks online. 
     

     

     

     
     
     
  18. Like
    Bob Cleek got a reaction from mtaylor in Interesting knot tying gizmo.   
    Sure. It happens all the time. You have to use one of the price-comparing apps to find out where the lowest price can be found. The Chinese manufacturers do it all the time. The buyer should beware of imitations, though. They might look exactly like the higher priced one and yet be of far inferior quality. With much of this sort of stuff, it is fortunately cheap enough that you can take a chance without getting hurt much if it turns out not to be as advertised.
  19. Like
    Bob Cleek got a reaction from mtaylor in Interesting knot tying gizmo.   
    I came across this interesting gizmo online. It's designed to tie snelling knots on fishing hooks or to tie loops in fishing line. I wonder if anybody has any experience with using one for model ship rigging. It seems that a nice small scale "hangman's noose" could be tied with it. That might make stropping small rope-stropped blocks, etc., a much easier task. ... Or not? Anybody know? 
     
    See: https://www.lilybady.com/products/hooks?fbclid=IwAR0pQEdMc-qHnEvZ5kg6zR-34OO9sMP9zTNAX9NkKNJm6fguHtPssSGp1I4 for full particulars of the thing. Fifteen bucks online. 
     

     

     

     
     
     
  20. Like
    Bob Cleek reacted to ccoyle in Tips to start building model ships again   
    If you really like HMS Snake, then have a good look at either Speedy or Flirt from Vanguard Models. They're products of the same designer, Chris Watton, but much more up-to-date in terms of design, materials, and user-friendliness.
  21. Like
    Bob Cleek got a reaction from Canute in using flesh color to make tan in acrylic paint   
    You certainly can. A bit of burnt umber, some yellow, and some white and you're good to go. No need to bother with the "flesh" color at all, actually. (You may want to save the bottle for posterity. It will be a collector's item some day. "Flesh color" has become a politically incorrect "Eurocentric" term these days.  
     
    Mixing colors isn't rocket science, although there can be some surprises using synthetic paints where the base color wasn't a "pure" pigment. If you don't remember from grammar school, a "color wheel" indicates which primary colors when mixed together will yield secondary colors and so on. See: Color wheel - Wikipedia
     
    For your purposes, however, I would suggest you go to a local artists' supply or crafts store and simply purchase a small bottle of acrylic craft paint of a suitable color, or colors. It's the same stuff and probably a lot less expensive than the "model paints. You can also purchase higher quality acrylic artists' oil paints sold in tubes. A few small tubes of basic ship modeling colors plus black and white and you should be able to mix whatever you'd need for a ship model. Find out what thinning solvent is required for whichever brand of acrylic oil color you purchase. It will be water or denatured alcohol. Use this thinner to thin the oil paint which will be the consistency of tooth paste as iti comes out of the tube. You will probably find that your thinned paint may still have somewhat of a gloss finish, and you can obtain "flattening solution" from the same retailer you buy your oil paint from that can be added to yield a matte finish. You may also wish to obtain some "accelerator," which can be added to your thinned paint to make it dry faster. (Artists' oils are made to dry slowly so an oil painter can work on a painting over a a span of days without the paint on the canvas drying overnight.) Follow the instructions on the containers for the use of such additives or ask for assistance at the store. They should be able to advise you about these "paint conditioners." 
     
    You will find that if you carefully replace the caps on your tubes of oil colors and keep the cap threads clean when replacing the caps, your tubed acrylic artists' oil colors will last practically forever without drying out.  As a plastic modeler, you probably already know the versatility of painting acrylics on plastics. Obtaining very realistic wooden effects using various weathering techniques are possible. You might want to watch a few YouTube videos if you aren't already familiar with these tricks of the trade. The war gaming figure painters have developed this into a fine art and there's much to discover in their videos. The YouTube instructions on the use of acrylic artists' oils on plastic models will also be helpful. 
     
    The learning curve isn''t steep. Once you become comfortable mixing your own colors and your own paint for brush or airbrush, you'll never pay those inflated "modeling colors" again. 
     
     
     
     
     
     
  22. Like
    Bob Cleek got a reaction from Canute in Interesting knot tying gizmo.   
    Sure. It happens all the time. You have to use one of the price-comparing apps to find out where the lowest price can be found. The Chinese manufacturers do it all the time. The buyer should beware of imitations, though. They might look exactly like the higher priced one and yet be of far inferior quality. With much of this sort of stuff, it is fortunately cheap enough that you can take a chance without getting hurt much if it turns out not to be as advertised.
  23. Like
    Bob Cleek got a reaction from Canute in Interesting knot tying gizmo.   
    I came across this interesting gizmo online. It's designed to tie snelling knots on fishing hooks or to tie loops in fishing line. I wonder if anybody has any experience with using one for model ship rigging. It seems that a nice small scale "hangman's noose" could be tied with it. That might make stropping small rope-stropped blocks, etc., a much easier task. ... Or not? Anybody know? 
     
    See: https://www.lilybady.com/products/hooks?fbclid=IwAR0pQEdMc-qHnEvZ5kg6zR-34OO9sMP9zTNAX9NkKNJm6fguHtPssSGp1I4 for full particulars of the thing. Fifteen bucks online. 
     

     

     

     
     
     
  24. Like
    Bob Cleek got a reaction from Landlubber Mike in mini table saw   
    The truth of the matter is that there isn't a mini-table saw selling anywhere for around a hundred bucks that is suitable for the purposes you intend to use one for. This is because the two essentials in any small table saw are accuracy and torque. Each requires manufacturing costs directionally proportional to the degree of accuracy and the amount of torque the machine can produce. The $100 Chinese mini-table saws generally run 12 VDC high speed / low torque motors running around 5,000 RPM. A high speed motor is fine for lightweight work or for abrasive work. (e.g.: a ceramic cutting disk on a Dremel mototool for cutting brass tubing.) For cutting, torque, the twisting power of the motor shaft, is required. Less expensive powered tools trade speed for torque. In some applications, this is acceptable, but not where the motor lacks the torque to meet the demand of the job and "stalls out" or overheats. Simply put, high torque motors cost more to produce, which puts them outside the range of the $100 Chinese Amazon Specials.
     
    Similarly, accuracy in any powered tool depends upon mass. The weight of a powered tool is generally the quickest way to judge its quality. In micro-table saws we're not talking forklift grade weight, but the principle still applies. "Fit and finish" is also critical to accuracy.  Saw fences that are adjusted with stamped metal wing nuts are a sure sign that the machine isn't going be capable of the accuracy one requires to do decent modeling work. Stamped metal parts instead of CNC-machined parts are another indicator of low quality and undependable accuracy tolerances.
     
    If all you have to spend is a hundred bucks, I agree with Allen and Roger: you'd be better off tuning up your full-sized table saw with a finishing blade and dance with the girl you brought. Of course, a decent specialty table saw blade can cost you more than $100 these days, as well.  
     
    It is worth noting that MicroMark and Proxxon, retailers of modeling tools and supplies, each also offer respectable micro-table saws. While they are in the same price range as the Byrnes table saw, the Byrnes machine is a much better built machine, more technologically advanced, and generally considered a better value for the money.
     
    If I were you, which I'm not, I'd save my money until I could afford to buy a Byrnes Model Machines table saw. Byrnes Model Machines - Thickness Sander (Yeah, I know it says "thickness sander," but that's actually the saw page.) They are presently on vacation but are supposed to return the end of this month. The price of their saw isn't listed at the moment, I guess because they aren't shipping any until they return from vacation. One will probably run you six to eight hundred bucks, depending upon the cost of shipping and the options you elect to have on it. I know this is a lot of money for anybody, but for anyone who wants to even just cut their own strip wood for modeling, this saw will pay for itself in surprisingly short order. It will also hold its value and you will be able to readily sell it if you ever wish to do so. (Which, if the lack of eBay listings are any indication, isn't likely to happen.) I don't own stock in the Byrnes Model Machines company, but I hold Jim Byrnes and his products in high regard. The Byrnes "Jim Saw" is universally recognized as the finest micro-saw of its kind ever made and is an especially excellent machine that will afford you pride and joy of ownership and use for generations to come. It's worth skipping a few dinners out, shots at the local bar after work, or even a few hours of overtime on the job to acquire one! 
     
    While it's advice that's ignored as often as it's offered, when you need a tool, buy the best tool you can afford. The most expensive tool is the one you have to buy more than once!
     
     
  25. Like
    Bob Cleek got a reaction from CPDDET in Interesting knot tying gizmo.   
    Sure. It happens all the time. You have to use one of the price-comparing apps to find out where the lowest price can be found. The Chinese manufacturers do it all the time. The buyer should beware of imitations, though. They might look exactly like the higher priced one and yet be of far inferior quality. With much of this sort of stuff, it is fortunately cheap enough that you can take a chance without getting hurt much if it turns out not to be as advertised.
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