Beef Wellington

The other consideration outside of the wood itself, is where the wood is sourced from, and in what form.  I don't have any tools to mill my own sheets and strips, and as a result I'm dependent on suppliers of strips.  My experience with finding consistent maple (for example) has not been a good one, and have found many cases where I've been supplied a wood clearly not what it should be.  I've also seen huge variation in Tanganika, some looks very similar to maple, some has very conspicuous orange-brown stripes in it which is far less satisfactory.  Walnut seems to be a similar challenge, it seems be of an acceptable quality in some kits, but in others it splinters and snaps just looking at it...

Thanks so much, Siggi, I have been away from the shop for a long while, and only today saw your posting. I seem to recall that you did put the stools on your model of the Dragon. It looks like it was a detail that changed back and forth, so either way would be correct. I will follow the image you included of the Dragon, showing a stool. It is more consistent with the rest of the ship!
 
I have been taken away from the shop for a good period of time, only able on occasion to install more planking. I have just about finished up to the waist rail, needing only the strakes at the bow which bend outward to support the cathead. It was a fairly simple matter of spiling to the plank below, trimming for ports, and measuring the widths in the normal way using a planking fan. Slow but steady!
 


 
This then brings me to the fun part, installing the waist moulding. I have taped a sample to the side to see how it will look, and how I will install it. I read in Ed Tosti's Naiad book that the moulding should be installed in long lengths, then cut away for ports later, to ensure a smooth curve along the sheer. This makes sense to me. I am thinking about clamping a former along the upper edge of the planking, then pushing the moulding up to the former and drilling for pins. The pins will later be used to align the moulding as it is glued. I still need to think how I can clamp this against the hull, without damaging the very delicate moulding.
 

 
In preparation for this, I also had to look again at the sheaves in the sides for the fore sheet and spritsail sheet, the main tack and the main sheet. Brian Lavery's book on the Bellona showed the first three as separate blocks in the sides at the waist. But I was unable to find other examples of that in the period, and Lees' book on Rigging says the fore and spritsail sheets were combined in one block at the middle of the waist during this period. So, I followed this, as seen below. The main sheet is to the far left in the drawing, and the main tack is just under the fore channels to the right of center.
 

 
 
I also puzzled over how these blocks fit the sides. Every image I could find of ships in the period  show the forward most blocks above the waist moulding, not cutting into it. But when I drew this with the blocks horizontal to the waterline, they cut into the clamps inboard. I did not think this would have been done, given the structural importance of the clamp at the waist. Then I noticed in the John McKay book on the HMS Victory that the blocks were perpendicular to the sides, not horizontal. So I drew it this way, and the blocks clear the inboard clamp very nicely. This is how it looks:
 
 

 
All for now!
 
Best wishes,
 
Mark
 
 
 
 

good afternoon everyone
 
i decided to continue with the front end of the build and take the bowsprit towards completion, i might then move back onto the Enterprise, as some of the comments on here made me feel more confident towards taking her forward
 
i had , what i thought was a good idea, but i guess it wasn't as no one else had tried it, that was to use a different coloured thread to use as templates to ensure everything was snag free, for that purpose it works fine, but to get a sense of what its going to look like (dont work) as it carries no weight
 
all blocks that attach to pintles or none rope tend to have round collets, i have tried to replicate this using and alternative evergreen tube

 

this is my bowsprit rigging plan, and bears absolutely no resemblance to the kit plans, to tells me the size of rope and where it is belayed/ fixed to
 


start of my coloured thread experiment to get a snag free runs

some lines go to the same fixing point, so i am having to adapt my work (lol again)

not a briiliant photo as the collets have bunched up up the middle one has to fixing point on the top


 

Good Afternoon Everybody,
I'm finally back after a short 4 year break, ratlines finally done, on with the rest of the fixed rigging.

One side almost completely planked. The other side is half way. 

To all that responded to the thread - my thanks for the valid points raised.  I've decided to take a 'middle road' and have ordered the 'Admiralty' paints for Sherbourne.  My intention is then to prep some relevant woodstock and the paint it with a test sample of each brand with the colours as close as possible without actually touching!
 
With regard to paint formulae a funny(?) story with a moral...
As a nautical archaeologist I worked as a project officer for the Nautical Archaeology Society.  We're based a 'Fort Cumberland' in Southsea which is a 'Scheduled Ancient Monuument' (the same level of protection as Stonehenge).  The structures date back to the Napoleonic period.  The front door to our office was peeling badly & we asked for permission to repaint it.  'Only if you use the correct formual paint' for the period' was the reply.  Samples were sent for analysis, and £70:00 later we recieved a small tin of paint.  We happily rubbed down the old paintwork and applied the new...  It took six weeks to dry and another two weeks to peel..  We didn't have the same problem with the £7.50 tin of 'Valspar' which we painted over the top.....
 
Kindest Regards and once again - my thanks
 
Ian

I have read through this thread several times and most of it makes no sense at all. There are too many undefined terms, ambiguous wording and simply irrational statements.
 
It seems several people have said you cannot build a "fair" deck if all the deck beams have the same camber. I assume "fair" means smooth and not wavy, as in a smooth curve or surface. However, virtually all modern ships are built this way.
 
This image shows the curvature (camber) of the transverse (side to side) deck beams (red). They all have the same curvature or camber. The green line from bow to stern is the centerline along the deck surface. The center point of each red transverse deck frame is positioned on the green centerline. The black line is the curve of the deck edge from bow to stern, as shown on profile views. This drawing shows quite well that anyone saying you cannot build a "fair" deck using the same camber at all stations (or deck beams) doesn't know what he is talking about.

 
Actually, the deck surface is just a section of a cylinder, like a pipe, where the diameter (curvature) is the same all along the length of the cylinder.
 
This is an image of the actual boat. It is a 40 foot personnel boat used by the US Navy for the last half of the 20th century.
 

 
Note that the curvature of the hull where it joins the deck surface is "fair" - not wavy. The entire deck surface and hull surfaces are "fair." The deck does not curve down into "swales" at the bow and stern.
 
Another example of a model of a 19th century wooden ship constructed with the same deck curvature (camber) at every frame can be found in this post:
 
https://modelshipworld.com/topic/19611-albatros-by-dr-pr-mantua-scale-148-revenue-cutter-kitbash-about-1815/?do=findComment&comment=603771
 

 
In this case the deck has sheer (curvature along the longitudinal direction). The deck surface approximates a hyperbolic section, although in this instance it isn't an actual mathematical hyperbolic surface. It resembles a saddle surface, or the surface of a doughnut hole, where the deck curves downward from the centerline in the transverse (side to side) direction (camber), and curves upward from midships in the longitudinal (lengthwise) direction (sheer). The line where the curved deck surface intersects the molded surface of the hull is not wavy, but is "fair," and the deck surface does not dive down to a lower level at bow or stern.
 
I am extremely familiar with the construction of the Cleveland class cruisers of World War II, having studied thousands of blueprints for 14 years to build a detailed CAD model of one of these ships, and I can assure you that these ships were constructed with the same deck camber at every frame on the main deck and most higher weather decks:
 
https://modelshipworld.com/topic/19321-uss-oklahoma-city-clg-5-1971-3d-cad-model/?do=findComment&comment=590447
 

 
I have given examples of ships that were built with the same transverse curvature (camber) at each deck beam/frame, in cases where the vessel had no sheer and where it did have sheer. In each case the lines of the deck and hull were "fair." And in no case does the deck curve down (longitudinally) at bow or stern.
 
Now can anyone explain why a ship built in ANY period could not have fair lines if all deck beams (in the same deck) had the same camber?
 
NOTE: If you do, please define every term you use so we have a chance of understanding what you say. Otherwise it will just be more incomprehensible gibberish.

Hi Stergios, not sure I can impart much advice given this seems to come down a lot to personal preference.  I can't tell exactly where you are, but I think I put the lifts on the yards first, mainly to get these secured squarely.  The sheets and cluelines came next and then the braces and tacks.  Check my log to see if you can tell from photos there, but in general I seem to recall working top downwards, and then mizzen to foremast.  The primary concern was just leaving the deck open enough to have access to secure lines (the upper yards tend to follow the line of the masts for belaying.  For example, the forsheet clue, sheet and tack lines pretty much limits any access to the deck once in place, so this was done last.  I think I took a different approach to you on the bowsprit as I didn't even install the jib-boom until most, if not all the other rigging was in place...,mainly to try and avoid a disastrous break.  I did find using a little swiveling turntableto be very helpful at times (think its call a 'lazy susan')...but all personal preference I suspect.  Good luck!

I keep looking at this model and forcing myself to forget what I've seen...CAF look to be providing a whole range of a type of hybrid kit and I strongly suspect one will be in my future.  Love what you're doing to expand on the kit, seems this would be hard to discern from a true scratch build frame model.  Glad you managed to overcome the early challenges, even the best kits of this complexity it seems have their own foibles to work through.  Know you're working on you Amerigo Vespucci, but can't wait to see more progress here.

Thank you Jason.
Any advice on the order to start the running rigging part B?

thank you for the comments, makes me feel much better
 
i have always wanted to avoid sounding childish over comments made, but thats the main reason i switched to doing the Aedes Ars diorama over the charismas period, whilst i decided on actually getting on with the AV
it is slightly more difficult to avoid the trolls and comments some times, being a MSW Social Media Moderator, and perhaps i over reacted, but the comments at the time went much further
 
i have still quite a way to go on the AV, and would love to completed her now rather than switching back 

I have also watched you build this model and have been very impressed with the results. I’m saddened to hear about what happened; I hesitate to go to far out on a limb but as the social media moderator for MSW you probably are quite the target/outlet for those who do not like MSW. I don’t really use social media that much (Reddit is my vice though) it’s very caustic in my opinion and my skin is probably not thick enough for it. I hope you eventually come back to the build and enjoy your time with it!

Indeed! Please continue the build! You were working on something truly incredible. I have loved watching the framing come together as a fully framed ship is something I greatly want to do myself but have not yet worked up the courage to go for it.
 
There are always those who would rather criticize than support, but something that I have loved about MSW is how wholesome the community here is towards each other. It is comforting to have such warm place of welcome in the cold landscape of the internet, especially social media platforms. You have many friends here waiting to see you continue!

I keep looking at this model and forcing myself to forget what I've seen...CAF look to be providing a whole range of a type of hybrid kit and I strongly suspect one will be in my future.  Love what you're doing to expand on the kit, seems this would be hard to discern from a true scratch build frame model.  Glad you managed to overcome the early challenges, even the best kits of this complexity it seems have their own foibles to work through.  Know you're working on you Amerigo Vespucci, but can't wait to see more progress here.

I can think of many choice colourful words to describe those miserable FB trolls, but I will refrain from using that sort of language here.
 
You have absolutely nothing to be ashamed of.  I have quite enjoying watching your progress to date, especially knowing that the (high) quality of your build efforts is something that I could possibly achieve, had I the resources (read $$, or €€ or ££) to attempt it myself. 
 
Chin up, and know that I’m among the people here on MSW that wish to see to see you succeed (even if it’s only in experience, it’s 100% worth it!)
 
Looking forward to your continued progress when you’re ready to resume.
 
Andy

I hope you continue working on the model. I'm loving the progress you've made. The photos are like eye candy! 

Kevin,
What the others have said.. ignore the trolls and FB.   You're doing very well.

Kevin,
 
I would think that the solution to that particular issue is to stop posting on the FB group, rather than stopping work on your model. Come back to it after AV and post your progress here. In all the time I’ve been a member here at MSW I don’t think I have ever seen that type of “trollish” behaviour - only ever encouragement, support and constructive suggestions.

I don't know why this kit doesn't come with letters for the stern or even a stencil.  I purchased the letters from Cornwall model boats. They are Amati's 6mm brass photoetch letters. 

I think they only deck fittings left to do are the shot racks and the ladders for the platforms.  Nothing is glued in yet, Not until the rest of the various holes have been drilled.  The masts and yards are under construction. 

I'm going to be rigging the Snake with the option on the right. The middle is a good option as well. I was going to add the left color to my production line but it looks a little off in my opinion. I may add it later if people want something a little darker. 

 

thank you Jason, i stopped doing it when i was slated on a FB group, comments like how i should have left it to someone who knew what they were doing etc, kind of upset me in a way, im not sure if the confidence will return, and if it does i certainly will think twice before showing others

And we all know better than to listen to that sort of folk on FB
 
I was really liking your work on this and was surprised when it stopped. Please restart this one. Plenty here will like to follow it, including me.

Very nice update Kevin, there seems to be a lot of soldering required for the various fittings, that alone would scare me away but you've done a great job.  Seems that the more modern sailing ships and non-military have no armament to worry about, but looks like the work needed on the more complicated metal fittings seem to more than make up for that.

I keep looking at this model and forcing myself to forget what I've seen...CAF look to be providing a whole range of a type of hybrid kit and I strongly suspect one will be in my future.  Love what you're doing to expand on the kit, seems this would be hard to discern from a true scratch build frame model.  Glad you managed to overcome the early challenges, even the best kits of this complexity it seems have their own foibles to work through.  Know you're working on you Amerigo Vespucci, but can't wait to see more progress here.

Very nice update Kevin, there seems to be a lot of soldering required for the various fittings, that alone would scare me away but you've done a great job.  Seems that the more modern sailing ships and non-military have no armament to worry about, but looks like the work needed on the more complicated metal fittings seem to more than make up for that.

Very nice update Kevin, there seems to be a lot of soldering required for the various fittings, that alone would scare me away but you've done a great job.  Seems that the more modern sailing ships and non-military have no armament to worry about, but looks like the work needed on the more complicated metal fittings seem to more than make up for that.