themadchemist

Welcome to MSW Trevor, Nice job on the first planking. Its nearly impossible the plank using kit planking without getting some clinkering effect. Just keep sanding until she's smooth. I found using scrapers also handy for smoothing the first planking prior to the second planking. Getting her as smooth as possible is important as it's the base for the second planking. I wouldn't worry about the bit of staining either. It looks like you have a good solid foundation going, keep up the wonderful work. Congrats on retirement also.

Wow, I've been off practicing my carving and checked in to MSW to find this surprise. What a brave attitude to restart such a large endeavor but as I've learned, that is just the way the ship building business works out sometime. Not stepping back was maybe what caused such disasters as the Wasa disaster. I'm sure there is no fun in making such a momentous decision, but continuing while knowing would have destroyed the future of fun on the build. Sometimes the biggest setbacks are what make the journey so much more interesting, even through the disappointment. I think its good for beginners like myself to learn this lesson quickly and thank you for letting us experience it with you. Your not only an outstanding moderator but a shining example of this hobbies great builders and I consider you a mentor as you've help teach and motivate me in my endeavor towards always becoming better at this hobby. I hope your old build log remains in the forum and you might consider linking it in your first post here, kind of like a ship wreck for others to see that even the best laid plans sometime go awry and require drastic measures to correct. I've always believed we learn WAY more from our mistakes then our successes and there is true benefit for others builder (especially new builders) to witness the issues of others and understand that this is part of the path to being better. I'm looking forward to seeing more FUN. On a side note, As I looked over my ANCRE Le Requin plans yesterday and thought about your experience here I questioned.... I've considered ordering the Amati Xebec plans and building a POB (I prefer the smaller 1:60) as a practice run before attempting a full POF. Something to help get a feel for the shape and lay of the ship. You mentioned the problems of using 2 sets of plans and I'd use each set for each build ( i.e. ANCRE for the 1:48 POF and the Amati for the 1:60 POB). My main reasoning for this is I'm lazy and don't wish to rescale the 1:48 plans to 1:60. Would you recommend this as a good practice or a waste of time. I guess what I'm asking, had you build a POB structure prior to the POF, would it have helped point out issues and helped prevent this for you? Thanks for your sharing of experience, I find living vicariously though others builds very helpful in learning. As I start my 2nd year building I am amazed at the levels I've achieved and all credit goes to MSW and her community. Without MSW I'd have surely given up in frustration. It really makes me appreciate those that have build prior to the internet forums for support. To one of the best, Mark! Cheers and may the sailing be smooth from here for you!

HA I just realized that with switching the bulwarks for solid wood, you had to cut them scuppers yourself. D'OH. Nice job! Oh, how about a picture of the stem up against the bow now with the bulwarks in place. I looked as close as possible on your second pic above (post #86) and the transition from top plank to bulwarks at the stem looks to be fairly smooth.

Nice job on the bulwarks. On fitting the stem I wouldn't remove material from the hull, but rather the stem. I'd use a pencil to mark where the stem touches the bow, then sand that part down, refit, remark, resand........ until it fits flush. Its a slow process, but for me that's one of the enjoyable parts. As an analytical chemist I tend to prefer the tedious stuff that drives others mad. Plus I'm already mad, so that helps. On the upper bow, where the curvature deviates from the stem.... How does the stem lay on the bulwarks? As the bulwarks flair out, it should match the stem better. This will leave a bit of a gap at the top planking. One idea is to shape and glue a second plank over the first and sand it to shape and thickness at the stem. As it wraps back around the bow toward the stern taper it to flush with the hull so there is a smooth transition. I've seen other builders that had a low plank and used this method to fill in. You could use filler as it will be double planked also and it won't show. I just personally prefer using wood. To be honest I had no issues with this step as when I saw how badly the OEM stem fit on my kit, that was when I decided to cut my own keel/stem as I saw it was going to be quite a job fitting the kit piece. If it makes you feel any better, my kit stem fit WAY worse then yours. Also once the bulwarks are dry I sanded the peak flat so the stem laid flush with it. It looks like you have the keel line on the hull shaped down to the correct thickness. Also the newer kit has the scuppers precut which saves that problem/issue. Adding the bulwarks really shows off the sheer line of the Swift. I too love the shape of these little boats sheer. She's looking good 3S10, keep up the great build.

Thanks for the info on the Amati plans, mij. That helps make up my mind. Sometimes its easier to buy the plans to scale rather then trying to copy and scale new plans. I like your wood choices also. I've never seen Sycamore used before but its colour is perfect for decking. You have a lot of gratings to make, you'll be well practiced after making all the grating for a Xebec.

Hello mij I'm glad to see another Xebec build surface. I recently acquired the ANCRE monography of Le Requin and I plan to one day attempt a POF of this magnificent vessel. I've been curious about the Cornwall Amati plans, so I'm glad to see this build log as I'm considering a POB build as a warm up before a fully POF attempt. That cherry keel is a really nice piece of wood. I love the way cherry carves, that had to make carving the rabbet easier. Have you decided on other woods, such as for hull and decking. I can't wait to see how you do the double decking. The Xebec's deck and grating design is such an unorthodox way of building. The deck planking has such a really interesting pattern also. I was just curious. What all came with the Amati plans? It looks as if they sent an instruction booklet but I was wondering what number of sheets are included with the plans and what info is there. I like the 1/60 scale and the price is really reasonable. The ANCRE plates are 1/48 which come in at 1.22 m. Although there is a single plate at 1/72 I prefer the 1/60 size for a POB. At 720 mm it should be more space friendly then the 1/48 also, but larger for better detailing then the 1/72. Anything past 1/60 also starts getting too small to work with for me. I've seen a Corel kit that has her square rigged, what they claim is polish-style, which has the square rigged main and square top mizzen rig that to me ruins the Xebecs lines. I love the tri-Lateen rig. How do you plan to rig yours? Another thing I've wondered about the displaying of the Xebecs is why the stern quarters are always ruined (Le Requin has beautiful carvings there) by having the oars mounted on the sides. I'd love to see a Xebec displayed with all oars in the water. It would really bring out the galley look of her lineage. That would require working sweep ports though. Looking forward to watching your progress.

In my opinion 2 things make a so-so build better. 1) knowing when the symmetry is off 2) Have the where-with-all to tear into it and fix it Oh the fun of tearing out and fixing, I've seen some huge deconstructions on MSW which gave me the confidence to understand that anything can be fixed. There is also something about that feeling of fixing something you know is wrong but didn't really want to tackle, but did anyway. Some times it takes a while to work up the bravery. The Transom removal on my planked longboat is one of those kind of situation. I'm know I'll do it. It's just thinking over the details of how. That's why I started on the Dinghy for something simpler, then 2 days ago I realized I had one of the sheer planks reversed. D'OH on the Dinghy. Its for my mother-in-law so I told Tammy "she'll never see it" A few minutes later Tammy came back and caught me wetting the seams to brake it loose and flip it. Her comment, "I knew you'd end up not able to live with it". Like yourself though, when all you have is time, why not fix it. On the figuring out women. I'm sure the multiple curling irons has a good reason . We as men just can't understand those reasons. Kinda like why does Tammy have 50 pairs of flip-flops and 100's of shoes. Luckily she completely supports my ship building addiction. Can't wait to see how you tackle this issue. I found the stern shaping on the Swift one of the tougher jobs in fairing.

One other thing. Your last pictures have not show the deck. If you haven't planked the decking do it before adding the bulwarks. The trimming and sanding is easier this way, this is kind of obvious. The more important thing and less obvious is the planking of the inner bulwarks. I planked after fitting them, I think the instructions say otherwise. I think that the planking on the inners would make shaping the bulwarks tougher. I'm not totally sure on the Swift instructions but I've seen other plank and have issues. As far as the instruction go though, seriously .... I can't remember when I last used them. You will be glad you switched the bulwarks to solid sheet. It shapes so nicely. Capt Harv said their club built the swift and figured that one out. He's had several good tips, as have many others around here.

This is what I was trying to explain in post #75. It's hard to put into words... You want the hull where it is in contact with the keel flat. By flat I mean perpendicular to the keel. For example, at the stem you have curvature in the vertical axis but the hull/keel contact patch is flat at 90 degrees off the keels vertical. Hope this makes sense. You also want this flat surface on the hull the width of the keel, actually minus 0.5mm per side is best as to form the rabbet in which the second planking can fit. I achieved this by taping a full sheet of 100 grit paper to a flat table and by running the hull, while holding it level, back and forth you sand flat to width. Now at the stern you don't need to remove anything as its already too wide. To sand the stem/hull junction into the hull I used the same method by rolling the stem from where it meets the keel to its top across the sandpaper. making sure to keep the boat perpendicular level. This was slow tedious sanding. See post #403 to 408/9 for pictures of what I'm trying to explain. http://modelshipworld.com/index.php?/topic/997-swift-by-themadchemist-al-150-the-dock-side-of-the-moon-pink-floyd-custom-build/page-27 Once the flat patch is wide enough the full length of the keel and stem I marked the keel edges with with a pencil onto the hulls flat patch. This gave me how much material Had to be removed, which I think is your question. I found you dont know this until the junction is flatted to accept the keel/stem. You can see I scarf jointed and put it all on as one piece, that is the keel and stem. For the removal of the excess (outside the lines) I used scrapers. The shmoo/ogee scraper at the stem and forward portion and the flat ones back at the skeg/stern. Like you stated on sanding, just keep shaping and fitting the keel until it looks right. If you dont have scrapers, the single flat razor blades work well for the flats. For the concave curvature up front I'd use a 5/8"ish dowel with 100 grit paper glued to get that garboard strake curvature into the keel, It goes from vertical at the stern to horizontal at he stem which forms that curvature in the twist section. For the heavy removal 100 grit is fine then when you reach the keel line switch progress to lighter grits as the shape develops. The inner stem curvature probably wont fit the hull shape exactly and once you have the flat pad for it to ride you can fit the inner keel by filing out the stem until its snug. The best way to figure out the hull curvature is with a pin contour gauge. and then transfer that to the stem inner curve. Post 443 shows the pin contour gauge being used to make the stern post http://modelshipworld.com/index.php?/topic/997-swift-by-themadchemist-al-150-the-dock-side-of-the-moon-pink-floyd-custom-build/page-30 My stem/keel glue up is at post #471 if your interested. http://modelshipworld.com/index.php?/topic/997-swift-by-themadchemist-al-150-the-dock-side-of-the-moon-pink-floyd-custom-build/page-32 I cut my own cherry stem and keel as I saw the mahogany stem fit poorly and I also planned on adding a figurehead. I deviate from the swift plans early on and my log is a mess of chatter but I tried to illustrate some of the methods I've learned and developed while bashing my Swift into something completely not a pilot boat. Surprisingly my study of pilot boats has caused me to want to build another without the customized direction. Here some reading for you if interested Its Pilots: Pilot schooners of North America and Great Britain by Cunliffe. The google version isn't complete but there's enough of it there. Its on my list of book purchases in the future. http://books.google.com/books?id=VNsGi3nmuaQC&pg=PA37&source=gbs_toc_r&cad=4#v=onepage&q&f=false One last thing, I placed the bulwarks first before the stem as it will also need flattening on the portion where the stem sits, just under the bowsprit hole. You also asked how important is the first planking evenness to the quality of the second. I'd say it is Everything. The 2nd can only ever be as good as its foundation. One reason there is so much chatter in my build log is that I was stalling until I had her exactly as i wanted before 2nd planking. Heed Bug's advise, but not just with sanding. Patience is the key to everything. Bug is spot on about resisting switching sandpaper once the 2nd planking's on. I'd not use more then 220 on it as its so thin. and 1000 gives it a really nice polish Also know, everything I pass to you was given to me by another generous MSW member, Its all about helping each other here The Spice Must Flow!

Good to see you back to the Swift, Shawn. I've been working on the Midwest Dinghy the last few days and really need to get back to my version of the swift (DSotM). I'd also recommend a block close to the keel between bulkheads 1 and 2 for gluing the bow end of the garboard plank. It ends somewhere between the 2 bulkheads if you want optimum placement and you'll need something to glue it down to. Also, it too late now...but, I replaced the basswood blocks with balsa, it makes shaping MUCH easier. Glad to see this build going again, I'm looking forward to seeing another Swift build. Its a great little kit for bashing.

Thanks for the link to Dr Michaels works. That is some amazing work, his ebony blocks are amazing also. I completely understand what you mean about spending an hour just looking and feeling the completed boat. It never ceases to amaze me what we are capable of and how practice always pays dividends. I don't think looking at work such as his or yours ever intimates me, it just make me want to try harder, knowing what is achievable with effort. I can't even imagine planking a small boat in ebony but now seeing it makes me want to try. This is such a great hobby as one can practice for years and will always continue to learn and improve their skills. I like that spacer idea, I think I'll use that. More great work Ron.

Looking good 3S10. Don't forget to narrow the stern along the keel. I flattened the bottom by sanding it flat with a piece of paper taped on the desk and just running the keel line back and forth until a flat keel junction can be made. Then taped the keel in place and drew lines down either side to see where material needs removed. I think its easier to place the stem and keel before second planking. Remember also to thin the keel section of the hull about 0.5mm smaller then the actual keel to make spacing for the 2nd planking. I also found running a #10 blade along the hull/keel line after keel gluing helped form/scrape a rabbet for the 2nd planking to sit in and give a nice clean and smooth transition. Hopefully the stem fits the hull shape and doesn't require a lot of shaping, but again I kind of enjoy the shaping part. Now's when it really gets fun as you start to see her take shape. Wait until you add the bulwarks, that really adds a lot to her and really shows off her sheer line. I don't know if I mentioned this before, but CaptHarv advised me on replacing the bulwarks with solid basswood sheeting rather then the kit plywood. You can get a 3" x 2' piece at hobby lobby or some hobby place for a bout $3 in whatever thickness needed and I found it was a good upgrade as the plywood and water for shaping wasn't a great combo. I've also found the lighter the colour of basswood the better it shapes. I'm enjoying watching your build, its like reliving the beginnings of my build. At the rate your going though, you may beat me done.

I've found the use of the planking fan for marking the bulkheads for strake run very important indeed. I personally like a first planking to be nice enough to be the outer planking. Jesse, you seem to have a good solid foundation for an excellent planking job. It should be pretty straight forward up front but the stern looks as though the wrap may be a bit of a steam issue. Jesse, I've seen another build use a steamer exactly like that for bending the mahogany single planking of a San Fran 2, if I'm remembering the build correctly. Can't remember whose build but I seem to remember it being the SF2 and I was amazed at the great job it did on mahogany, which can be a pain to bend. I found basswood typically doesn't need heat as much as other harder woods. I had to boil ebony to get it to bend.

I agree with Russ, The notching of the platform makes a huge difference in detail. Top Notch work Ron, pun intended I've stopped work on my long boat to see how you will finish your interior. I notice some of the ships boats have gratings in the stern as part of the platform. Is there a consistent rule as to which type of boat had what type of interior structure (i.e. cutter vs. pinnace vs. launch.....)

The love hate relationship with ebony I think everyone should experience it for themselves at least once. It helps one understand why dogs chase there tails, which is what model ship building sometimes feels like, especially while trying to figure out how to use ebony . She looks fantastic Mark and after the ebony is done, you will be glad you used it.

That tight curve is a pain. I used holly as it has better bending character and still had splitting. Luckily they split on the outer edge, which will be against the hull. A method I found that worked to help prevent splitting on the holly was to clamp in 2 directions as in photo. If that didn't help You could make a solid former like I did for the ebony stripe. The full support would help support as it dries. I used a small block of cherry which was thicker then the frame for a more complete support

Having the deck on really helps lock the bulkheads in place. I cant remember now will out reading back... did you use heat in bending the planking? On that single plank mahogany wet and heat really help. I find my sealing iron great at forcing that thin second planking into shape also. I purchased it after seeing the excellent job it did on Randy's (lamarvalley) SF. I cant wait to see your hull sanded and finished. Randy used tung oil and it really made the mahogany Glow. Have you thought about finishes yet?

Wow Jesse, I think the pictures do it a lot of justice. If it looks better then in the pictures you should be really happy. I love the way the Pecan stain seemed to fill the wood graining and not over darken the wood completely. Which brand of pecan stain/sealer did you use BTW. The staining really brought out the butt joints and treenails also. What method did you use for treenailing? I like the subtle look it has and gives, sometimes treenails seem to be very overpowering to me, its one of the reasons I haven't attempted it yet. The new camera takes nice pictures also, congrats on that Hope the father-in-law is doing better also.

Hello Kevin I love this little MS boat kit, She's a great little kit but I would say this.... as a first build she may be a bit frustrating. The assumption that small equals easier doesn't always hold true in ship modeling. Not to say you've made a mistake by starting with this kit, just don't expect it to be easier based on size. I'm looking forward to seeing another of these built. My build is linked in my sig if your interested and I'll be willing to answer any questions you may have. Don't forget the first rule of wooden ship building (pretty much the same as with plastic), HAVE FUN!

Hello Mike Planking both sides evenly is an important step as glue drying can cause keel warpage. It you haven't already seen it I highly recommend DanV's thread on how he fixes Boo-Boos and Oopies. http://modelshipworld.com/index.php?/topic/814-how-i-fix-boo-boos-and-oopsies-mistakes-by-dan-vadas-share-your-own-fixes-here/#entry11303 He covers filling gaps in planking and straightening a Fully framed keel that is warped among other things. His Vulture build is a must read also. On the not enough wood issue. I have had GREAT luck getting wood from Mr Cantin, whom sells on ebay. I have ordered 3 times from him and even sent wood for him to cut and have always been pleased with his speed and wood. Mahogany may be hard to match but if your interested, I highly recommend his service, I have ordered on Saturday and had deliver by Wednesday, with all cutting done to my custom spec's, of course that is within the US. I do know he ships international. http://www.ebay.com/itm/MODEL-SHIP-HULL-PLANKING-7-TYPES-OF-WOOD-EXOTIC-DOMESTIC-60-PIECES-/281224383806?pt=Model_Kit_US&hash=item417a478d3e To me your planking looks great, There's nothing there that a bit of wood dust and PVA and a few dozen hours of sanding won't make look beautiful. Congrats on the 1/2 way point.

I personally like scrapers as much as sand paper for shaping the hull. They make several curved shaped scrapers that work very well. I love my shmoo (ogee) shaped scraper for concave shaping. You can also CA glue sand paper to a larger (> 5/8"ish) dowel and used it as a curved sanding block, which works great for the stern lower hull FYI, the scraper came from Lee Valley and I saw that they have free shipping until Jan 6 http://www.leevalley.com/US/Wood/page.aspx?p=32639&cat=1,310,41069&ap=1 I think the issues your having with the lay of the planking not wanting to sit where you put it is typical. Remember your forcing a flat, straight plank into a curved 3d shape which it won't like. I found wetting and clamping and letting dry, sometime 3 or 4 times per plank will slowly shape the plank. Once its shaped then comes the narrowing and beveling of edges so the planks lay nicely together. Your plank will look something like this before gluing My swift required a lot of narrowing at the stem and stern to get full strakes from stem to transom. Where you premarked the frames with the planking fan should be your guide as to the amount of narrowing required on each particular plank. One thing for sure planking is something that you develop with practice and experience. That's why the double planking is helpful while learning. I would say of all the skills required in planking the most important skill is PATIENCE or at least thats what I've found. You have a nice foundation in place 3sheets10, I think you'll be amazing at the transformation that sanding/scraping will have on the overall hull shape. I you don't have scrapers yet you can always use single edge razor blades for this. Enjoy the shaping process. To me its one of the most satisfying parts of laying the hull. Congrats on finishing the next step. She coming along quite nicely.

I kind of figured that was the case. The shadows on the shroud chains aren't in parallax which indicates more then one light source. The combined light sourcing really makes that right gun port appear to have a relief though. Another trick of the Light. I thought they had lions on all the ports, and one can see the wood colour difference on the inner port door where the lions appeared to have been. Especially on the 2 left ports under the channel. Its hard to believe that visible after all this time under water. Here's a question since the question of lighting came up. All the pictures I've seen from the Wasan museum seem to be dimly lite. I was just curious as to the lighting they use in the museum. I know many older practices have had to be changed on relics as the light, humidity and other factors effect the preservation of the relic. For example the US declaration of independence is nearly completely bleached from sunlight exposure. I've also read that the high CO2 and humidity of visitors in the great pyramids was causing issues. I was just wondering if you knew anything about the constraints used at the museum to preserve her for future generations. that is other then the LONG bath and propping up due to her weight. I wonder if the museum is humidity controlled?

I just thought it important to post this as added information is always important when considering a purchase of this magnitude. I've been fence sitting on the ANCRE monography of Le Requin for a bit of time and this thread caused me to pause when ordering. I was also wanting to order Frolich's text but the pricing between standard (6%) shipping and colossimo was $16 versus $66. I bit the bullet and ordered standard shipping, which is stated to be 2 to 5 weeks. This allowed me to purchase the Frolich text rather then spend on shipping. The order was made on Dec 14 and I planned on waiting until Jan 30 before worrying. Well Saturday I went to the mail box, exactly 2 weeks (Dec 28th) after order and the package was there. I have read that Herbert BERTI has passed away this past year and his son Didier is now handling deliveries. This may have been a cause for mailing issues during this transition period. I contacted Didier twice by email and his response time was under 24 hours each time. The package arrived in 2 weeks without paying extra and the package was packed VERY well. I really don't see how it could have been damaged as packed, unless it was with intent to do so (the so called USPS, going postal). A nearly 5000 mile trip with no problems, in the height of holiday mail traffic and it still arrived on the minimum 2 week delivery time. The Le Requin monographies and Frolich text are amazing and I would recommend ordering without worry of disappointment.

More nice work Matti....but I just noticed something on the original I never have before. On the lower gun ports, here's the pic you posted that shows it best Am I seeing it right or is it shadows, the right-most doesn't appear as it could be shadow.... They look to have a relief cut into the wale for the gunport lid to fit in above the actual port. Is it me just seeing something that is a trick of the lighting or is she this way? Also, did all the gun port doors have lions heads originally on the inside?

Its good to hear your son Kevin is looking for a hobby. So many today think TV is a hobby. For me a hobby involves creation and all one creates in watching TV is a depression in the seat cushion as well as the brain cavity. Personally we've been TV'less since 2005 and I feel we're the better for it. I'm not knocking TV, its just some spend hours a day, but then say... I don't have time for a hobby. I don't know if I've mentioned this before, but hobby lobby will send a 40% of coupon on 1 item per week to your email. Tammy signed up for it and typically takes care of it, but 40% off help make some decisions sometimes when something you want isn't on sale that week. I've also found that there sales rotate and if one waits but a short time, the savings is usually 25 to 50% off. I've never thought of checking out he dollhouse stuff, great advise.