jablackwell Posted June 19, 2015 Share #31 Posted June 19, 2015 Looking really good! On sanding the back, that curve is a real challenge. I used a sanding block and a sort of jig arrangement. There is a description of it on this site in someone else's build log of the Sultana.... let me see if I can find it... http://modelshipworld.com/index.php/topic/1292-sultana-by-hopeful-msw-scale-164-bashed-kit/?hl=sultana there is also a good description on process in Chuck Passaro's practicum (Model Shipways available online). ~john CharlieZardoz 1 Quote Builds: U.S. Brig Syren - 1803 - Model Shipways - First PoB Build Sopwith Camel F.1 - 1916 - Model Airways - Not a Ship!, Completed Kate Cory - 1856 - Model Shipways - Second Build, completed Sultana - 1767 - Model Shipways - First shipbuild, completed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CharlieZardoz Posted June 20, 2015 Author Share #32 Posted June 20, 2015 Both Chuck's practicum and Hopeful's build log have been invaluable to me in this process. I see what you both mean about the sanding block. I'll have to determine the right angle using the plans and put together some sort of jig which to sand. The back now as it is so uneven. I appreciate the good words and encouragement. Charlie mtaylor and Canute 2 Quote Build on hold: HM Sultana 1/64th scale Current Build: 31 ton Doughty revenue cutter as USRC Active 1/64th scale (in progress) Future Interests: Ballahoo, Diligence, Halifax and beyond... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jablackwell Posted June 20, 2015 Share #33 Posted June 20, 2015 One thing is true about the transom: it take a lot of time. It's tempting to whip out the ole' rotary tool and grind away. Be careful with that should you head in that direction ;-) CharlieZardoz and mtaylor 2 Quote Builds: U.S. Brig Syren - 1803 - Model Shipways - First PoB Build Sopwith Camel F.1 - 1916 - Model Airways - Not a Ship!, Completed Kate Cory - 1856 - Model Shipways - Second Build, completed Sultana - 1767 - Model Shipways - First shipbuild, completed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CharlieZardoz Posted June 21, 2015 Author Share #34 Posted June 21, 2015 Ok so to make the jig it looks as though the wood blocks need to be cut on an angle of 70 degrees even. Going to get the wood bits in a bit and assemble it same way Hopeful did. mtaylor 1 Quote Build on hold: HM Sultana 1/64th scale Current Build: 31 ton Doughty revenue cutter as USRC Active 1/64th scale (in progress) Future Interests: Ballahoo, Diligence, Halifax and beyond... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob the Builder Posted June 22, 2015 Share #35 Posted June 22, 2015 Charlie - I'm interested in your build because I'm working on the same kit. I find it peculiar though, of the shape of your deck camber out of the box, Mine was a lot closer than that out of the box... yet they're made at the same factory! I too had some work to do back at the transom though, and I too am adding hand-made decking, and tossing that odd stuff from the kit box...so we may experience some of the same problems along the way (not saying I can be of any help), but I am interested to see the angles you take. I have a feeling your meticulous approach is going to yield a fine subject. I have some progress photos from this weekend I'll be posting in my build log tonight - check it out if you get a chance... CharlieZardoz 1 Quote Current Build : Sultana Schooner Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob the Builder Posted June 22, 2015 Share #36 Posted June 22, 2015 I think I see what's happening now - in the photo where you're checking deck camber with the template...you weren't quite finished carving away the kit bulkheads - am I right? Canute and CharlieZardoz 2 Quote Current Build : Sultana Schooner Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ca.shipwright Posted June 22, 2015 Share #37 Posted June 22, 2015 David, re: your May 10, 2015 post. I do believe you do have the template misaligned. On the aft view on the plans is a broken vertical line on the hull on what would be the rudder post. This is the centerline of the drawing. On the template, you will see a line C/L. That is also the centerline. The two should coincide. The little R on the template is the rabbet location. I would use the plan drawing only to identify to which station the template belongs. The hull shape is going to come off the template. I know this post is a little late but hope it will cure some of the confusion. Regards Michael Z. CharlieZardoz 1 Quote ca.shipwright Michael Zemmel Midlothian. VA http://modelshipworld.com/index.php/topic/11562-hmb-endeavour-by-cashipwright-corel-160/ http://modelshipworld.com/index.php/topic/15329-hms-victory-by-cashipwright-panart-art-738-1:78/ "Buy all your toys before you retire" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Landlubber Mike Posted June 22, 2015 Share #38 Posted June 22, 2015 Great work so far Charlie. Keep taking your time on getting the lines right - all this work will pay off in dividends in the end. CharlieZardoz 1 Quote Mike Current Wooden builds: Amati/Victory Pegasus MS Charles W. Morgan Euromodel La Renommèe Plastic builds: Hs129B-2 1/48 SB2U-1 Vindicator 1/48 Five Star Yaeyama 1/700 Pit Road Asashio and Akashi 1/700 diorama Walrus 1/48 and Albatross 1/700 Special Hobby Buffalo 1/32 IJN Notoro 1/700 Akitsu Maru 1/700 Completed builds : Caldercraft Brig Badger Amati Hannah - Ship in Bottle Pit Road Hatsuzakura 1/700 Hasegawa Shimakaze 1:350 F4B-4 and P-6E 1/72 Accurate Miniatures F3F-1/F3F-2 1/48 Tamiya F4F-4 Wildcat built as FM-1 1/48 Special Hobby Buffalo 1/48 Eduard Sikorsky JRS-1 1/72 Citroen 2CV 1/24 - Airfix and Tamiya Entex Morgan 3-wheeler 1/16 Terminated build: HMS Lyme (based on Corel Unicorn) On the shelf: Euromodel Friedrich Wilhelm zu Pferde; Caldercraft Victory; too many plastic ship, plane and car kits Future potential scratch builds: HMS Lyme (from NMM plans); Le Gros Ventre (from Ancre monographs), Dutch ship from Ab Hoving book, HMS Sussex from McCardle book, Philadelphia gunboat (Smithsonian plans) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CharlieZardoz Posted June 23, 2015 Author Share #39 Posted June 23, 2015 (edited) To Bob: Yes I carved away some of the bulwarks then sanded the rest down in order to meet the camber lines. The way they carved the hull looks like the work of a dremel and you can see circular patterns in the carving some of which went a little too far at the edges making the camber kinda "w" shaped. With a mixture of sanding and wood putty I made the curve equivalent to the camber template. The top of the solid hull deck required virtually no sanding so using the tools all I did was sand away from the center to avoid changing the hull shape. It seems each hull is a bit different from each other, if you've been reading Chuck's practicum his was quite different than mine and looking as yours seems different as well. To Michael: Yes I know exactly what you mean. When I lined the templates up from center line to center line the template didn't match the plan lines for some reason so basically I redrew the centerline which lay in between the cl and r (you'll see a tiny dash at the bottom). Most of the people I showed it to said I should throw out the templates entirely but I figured I could maybe salvage them since they had the right shape overall. I added a picture to show you what I mean, however if you see something I don't feel free to let me know. To Mike: Thank you very much for the praise. I'm really enjoying this process overall, each challenge is teaching me something new and getting me ready for the next part of the building process though can't wait to be done with fairing and onto planking lol. I'm hoping one day to make an HMS Badger which looks as good as yours Edited June 23, 2015 by CharlieZardoz Canute, mtaylor and Landlubber Mike 3 Quote Build on hold: HM Sultana 1/64th scale Current Build: 31 ton Doughty revenue cutter as USRC Active 1/64th scale (in progress) Future Interests: Ballahoo, Diligence, Halifax and beyond... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CharlieZardoz Posted July 4, 2015 Author Share #40 Posted July 4, 2015 So hi all, just a quick update. This is my interpretation of Hopeful's jig to sand the stern. Basically a few pieces of junk wood glued and nailed together and some wood putty added to shape the curve correctly. While it looks slightly lumpy it will eventually be covered with sandpaper so doesn't have to look perfect. More pics to come! dgbot, Landlubber Mike, jablackwell and 4 others 7 Quote Build on hold: HM Sultana 1/64th scale Current Build: 31 ton Doughty revenue cutter as USRC Active 1/64th scale (in progress) Future Interests: Ballahoo, Diligence, Halifax and beyond... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CharlieZardoz Posted July 5, 2015 Author Share #41 Posted July 5, 2015 And here's a few more, sandpaper added, and jig level measured to get a general level as to where the hull should stay for sanding. catopower, mrshanks, qwerty2008 and 6 others 9 Quote Build on hold: HM Sultana 1/64th scale Current Build: 31 ton Doughty revenue cutter as USRC Active 1/64th scale (in progress) Future Interests: Ballahoo, Diligence, Halifax and beyond... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob the Builder Posted July 9, 2015 Share #42 Posted July 9, 2015 I appreciate your careful, methodical approach, Charlie -- there's no reason you will come up with nothing less than a jewel of a model. Watching your build is like an instructional segment, with the way you present your progress, and show the tools, templates, and materials used. I have something to learn from you. CharlieZardoz, mtaylor and Canute 3 Quote Current Build : Sultana Schooner Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CharlieZardoz Posted July 17, 2015 Author Share #43 Posted July 17, 2015 I appreciate the kind words. In all fairness all i'm doing is trial and error and solving puzzles with a little common sense. I've already done some more work on the stern and will post pics once it's to the point where I'm happy. Real Estate is a busy business as is taking the lady to the beach on weekends Canute, Landlubber Mike and mtaylor 3 Quote Build on hold: HM Sultana 1/64th scale Current Build: 31 ton Doughty revenue cutter as USRC Active 1/64th scale (in progress) Future Interests: Ballahoo, Diligence, Halifax and beyond... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaager Posted September 15, 2015 Share #44 Posted September 15, 2015 I stopped updating my database in 1996, but up to then, here are journal articles relating to your build: HMS SULTANAMC CALIP,DANA LMODEL SHIPWRIGHT197511250-257 SULTANA OF 1768 TAKAKJIAN,PORTIASHIPS IN SCALE 19851180-83 18TH SCHOONER NA MASTING RIGGINGSULTANA - THE SMALLEST SCHOONER BECOMES A FIRST RATE MODELMALCOMSON,BOBMODEL SHIP BUILDER19917224-2918TH SCHOONERSULTANA A FIRST-TIME, PLANK-ON-FRAME SHIP MODEL PT.1FOX,CHARLES SSEAWAY'S SHIPS IN SCALE 19945/158-65POF TECHNIQUE 18TH NA5/220-255/38-14 mtaylor and CharlieZardoz 2 Quote NRG member 50 years Current: NMS HMS Ajax 1767 - 74-gun 3rd rate - 1:192 POF exploration - works but too intense -no margin for error HMS Centurion 1732 - 60-gun 4th rate - POF Navall Timber framing HMS Beagle 1831 refiit 10-gun brig with a small mizzen - POF Navall (ish) Timber framing The U.S. Ex. Ex. 1838-1842 Flying Fish 1838 pilot schooner - POF framed - ready for stern timbers Porpose II 1836 brigantine/brig - POF framed - ready for hawse and stern timbers Vincennes 1825 Sloop-of-War - POF timbers assembled, need shaping Peacock 1828 Sloop-of -War - POF timbers ready for assembly Sea Gull 1838 pilot schooner - POF timbers ready for assembly Relief 1835 packet hull USN ship - POF timbers ready for assembly Other Portsmouth 1843 Sloop-of-War - POF timbers ready for assembly Le Commerce de Marseilles 1788 118 cannons - POF framed La Renommee 1744 Frigate - POF framed - ready for hawse and stern timbers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CharlieZardoz Posted September 28, 2015 Author Share #45 Posted September 28, 2015 Greetings everyone! Time to update this blog so you can all see my progress. Was a splendid summer and wound up being out quite a bit however been tinkering away on Sultana and pace is picking up now that we are entering the fall. To give you an idea of the work needed to be done below is a pic of Sultana as she appears atm. I realized that for the most part the hull itself doesn't need much shaping only in a few specific areas which I arrowed to show where I mean. First is the stern which required some shaping and rebuilding, the next is the keel which requires some sanding down to get it to the shape it needs to be to hold the keel piece. The last is the bow area which unlike the stern required a significant portion of wood be removed as the templates stopped fitting nicely at around template #4. I will show you what I mean with each process. mtaylor 1 Quote Build on hold: HM Sultana 1/64th scale Current Build: 31 ton Doughty revenue cutter as USRC Active 1/64th scale (in progress) Future Interests: Ballahoo, Diligence, Halifax and beyond... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CharlieZardoz Posted September 28, 2015 Author Share #46 Posted September 28, 2015 Firstly the old templates were not really useful so I decided to make new ones using the plans themselves. Basically I scanned the plans in my computer then added the reverse image to make the width lines whole on both sides. This is much more useful in determining whether the hull fits in nicely or is snug and needs wood removed. I added some thin basswood in the back from a local hobby shop to give them strength and shaped them accordingly as so. mtaylor 1 Quote Build on hold: HM Sultana 1/64th scale Current Build: 31 ton Doughty revenue cutter as USRC Active 1/64th scale (in progress) Future Interests: Ballahoo, Diligence, Halifax and beyond... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CharlieZardoz Posted September 28, 2015 Author Share #47 Posted September 28, 2015 (edited) I then matched up each piece to the lines on the hull to see how they fit modifying the thickness of the wood here and there where needed. When they fit snug but not tight they are as they should be! Edited September 28, 2015 by CharlieZardoz ccoyle, Beef Wellington, mtaylor and 3 others 6 Quote Build on hold: HM Sultana 1/64th scale Current Build: 31 ton Doughty revenue cutter as USRC Active 1/64th scale (in progress) Future Interests: Ballahoo, Diligence, Halifax and beyond... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CharlieZardoz Posted September 28, 2015 Author Share #48 Posted September 28, 2015 I used the keel piece to determine the thickness of the what the keel area should be. mtaylor and uss frolick 2 Quote Build on hold: HM Sultana 1/64th scale Current Build: 31 ton Doughty revenue cutter as USRC Active 1/64th scale (in progress) Future Interests: Ballahoo, Diligence, Halifax and beyond... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CharlieZardoz Posted September 28, 2015 Author Share #49 Posted September 28, 2015 (edited) Here you can see frame #3 and why up front the bow needs more extensive shaping down. The frame curves in and so using a dremel and some sand paper starts the process of shaping down the bow to the point where it fits the templates nicely. I still have a bit more to do on this part. Oh and make sure that you check the evenness of your sanding using the tool I'm using which name I've forgotten Edited September 29, 2015 by CharlieZardoz uss frolick, mtaylor and dgbot 3 Quote Build on hold: HM Sultana 1/64th scale Current Build: 31 ton Doughty revenue cutter as USRC Active 1/64th scale (in progress) Future Interests: Ballahoo, Diligence, Halifax and beyond... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CharlieZardoz Posted September 28, 2015 Author Share #50 Posted September 28, 2015 Regarding the stern I used wood putty to shape it up to the size and angle it needed to be. This required a lot of back and forth and also a bit of instinct as you want enough thickness so that the windows are where they should be. I cut out a piece from the templates I made above and used it as an acting transom to determine where the lines should be. Using a few photos of the stern from the replica to act as a guide. Chuck Seiler, GuntherMT and mtaylor 3 Quote Build on hold: HM Sultana 1/64th scale Current Build: 31 ton Doughty revenue cutter as USRC Active 1/64th scale (in progress) Future Interests: Ballahoo, Diligence, Halifax and beyond... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CharlieZardoz Posted September 28, 2015 Author Share #51 Posted September 28, 2015 Sanding the top of the stern into shape was relatively easy and using the light I matched up the stern windows to the top of the deck making sure logically there was just enough space for them to fit in. mtaylor 1 Quote Build on hold: HM Sultana 1/64th scale Current Build: 31 ton Doughty revenue cutter as USRC Active 1/64th scale (in progress) Future Interests: Ballahoo, Diligence, Halifax and beyond... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CharlieZardoz Posted September 28, 2015 Author Share #52 Posted September 28, 2015 Now the lower part of the stern I see constantly done wrong in a lot of models. Sultana does not have a square tuck stern but a lovely curve which you can see in this photo of the replica (the white part that planks inward). So using the sanding block I have I slowly started sanding the wood inward as so. How far you say? Well that's a good question I'm glad you asked mtaylor and GuntherMT 2 Quote Build on hold: HM Sultana 1/64th scale Current Build: 31 ton Doughty revenue cutter as USRC Active 1/64th scale (in progress) Future Interests: Ballahoo, Diligence, Halifax and beyond... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CharlieZardoz Posted September 28, 2015 Author Share #53 Posted September 28, 2015 (edited) Below are the longitudinal lines for the ship and in the same way I cut out the templates before I did the same for these which will help in determining the curvature of the stern, bow, etc. Edited September 29, 2015 by CharlieZardoz mtaylor 1 Quote Build on hold: HM Sultana 1/64th scale Current Build: 31 ton Doughty revenue cutter as USRC Active 1/64th scale (in progress) Future Interests: Ballahoo, Diligence, Halifax and beyond... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CharlieZardoz Posted September 28, 2015 Author Share #54 Posted September 28, 2015 (edited) Here you can see the templates fully cut and on the hull I've been adding the lines using a pencil so I can better judge the curvature of the hull. As you can see the stern needs a bit more removed at the points noted. Edited September 29, 2015 by CharlieZardoz Quote Build on hold: HM Sultana 1/64th scale Current Build: 31 ton Doughty revenue cutter as USRC Active 1/64th scale (in progress) Future Interests: Ballahoo, Diligence, Halifax and beyond... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CharlieZardoz Posted September 28, 2015 Author Share #55 Posted September 28, 2015 (edited) As for the keel pretty much using the piece provided with the model one can determine how much needs to be removed as well. This doesn't have to be 100% in stone a lot of this is really a matter of feeling your way to what looks right. One can measure and measure but in the end use your eyes and see if things match up as they should. Edited September 28, 2015 by CharlieZardoz dgbot, mtaylor and Chuck Seiler 3 Quote Build on hold: HM Sultana 1/64th scale Current Build: 31 ton Doughty revenue cutter as USRC Active 1/64th scale (in progress) Future Interests: Ballahoo, Diligence, Halifax and beyond... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dgbot Posted September 29, 2015 Share #56 Posted September 29, 2015 Keep up the good work Charlie. As the old adage goes the are several ways to skin a cat. David B mtaylor and CharlieZardoz 2 Quote Work in progress USS Maine in cardstock.http://modelshipworld.com/index.php/topic/7446-uss-maine-by-dgbot-hmv-card/#entry220003 Completed Blockade runner Teazer http://modelshipworld.com/index.php/topic/6063-blockade-runner-teazer-by-dgbot-card-stock/#entry175967 Completed The Monitor Lehigh http://modelshipworld.com/index.php/topic/6920-the-monitor-lehigh-by-dgbot-card-model/#entry203680 Completed Kingston Class MCVD http://modelshipworld.com/index.php/forum/10-kit-build-logs-in-progress/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CharlieZardoz Posted September 29, 2015 Author Share #57 Posted September 29, 2015 (edited) Here are a few more pics of the vertical and horizontal lines removing wood forwards up to the bow area. The lines should look even to the eye as so. Edited September 29, 2015 by CharlieZardoz mtaylor and ccoyle 2 Quote Build on hold: HM Sultana 1/64th scale Current Build: 31 ton Doughty revenue cutter as USRC Active 1/64th scale (in progress) Future Interests: Ballahoo, Diligence, Halifax and beyond... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CharlieZardoz Posted September 29, 2015 Author Share #58 Posted September 29, 2015 Thank you David! Its really a matter of feeling ones way through. I need work done on the stern, I try and devise a method to figure out how to get it to look right. Others could do something completely different and if that works for them and gets them to their destination they are seeking then its a success. Just putting all this out there for those who come after me and happy to offer the knowledge. Also each Sultana hull seems a bit different. The 3 areas I am refining might be totally different on another hull. I know Chuck's version in the practicum had a totally different stern than mine mtaylor 1 Quote Build on hold: HM Sultana 1/64th scale Current Build: 31 ton Doughty revenue cutter as USRC Active 1/64th scale (in progress) Future Interests: Ballahoo, Diligence, Halifax and beyond... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuck Seiler Posted September 29, 2015 Share #59 Posted September 29, 2015 Charlie, Great work so far. When I started my SULTANA several years ago, I ran into similar issues. I determined that all the stuff you are doing was too much like work and opted to trash the solid hull and make it using the bread and butter method. Having learned a lot since then, I would do SOME things different, but not the overall plan. SULTANA makes a beautiful model and in my mind is a great starter (except for some of the solid hull issues). I need to pull mine out of storage and finish it up. Keep up the good work. I will look in from time to time. CharlieZardoz and mtaylor 2 Quote Chuck Seiler San Diego Ship Modelers Guild Nautical Research Guild Current Build:: Colonial Schooner SULTANA (scratch from Model Expo Plans), Hanseatic Cog Wutender Hund, Pinas Cross Section Completed: Missouri Riverboat FAR WEST (1876) Scratch, 1776 Gunboat PHILADELPHIA (Scratch), John Smith Shallop Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CharlieZardoz Posted September 29, 2015 Author Share #60 Posted September 29, 2015 Thank you so much for the kind words. I considered whether solid hull would be overall too frustrating to work with but at the advice of my friends at the Brooklyn model club I decided it was good to stick with it as my first wood model. Frames it seems often tend to need filling in especially at the bow and stern anyways and the benefit of the solid hull is that mistakes can easily be fixed with wood putty as I've removed and re-added a few parts already. The hull shaping can be seen without having to use my imagination and the whole thing will be planked in thin veneer boxwood strips so in the end should look no different. After I master this one looking forward to a frame on bulkhead and see what that teaches me. Chuck Seiler, Bobstrake and mtaylor 3 Quote Build on hold: HM Sultana 1/64th scale Current Build: 31 ton Doughty revenue cutter as USRC Active 1/64th scale (in progress) Future Interests: Ballahoo, Diligence, Halifax and beyond... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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