Soleil Royal by Hubac's Historian - Heller - An Extensive Modification and Partial Scratch-Build

[72Nova]

Hi Marc,

Try this link, unfortunately I lost some of the earlier pics for the hull and deck modifications, but this should give an idea,now I'll admit this was my first attempt at kit bashing and totally green the knowledge of ships, so be easy on me..lol

 

Michael D.

 

 

 

 https://photos.google.com/share/AF1QipPrp-3y7ntwH1vwfFsMMf0bWByRebwVKqePmRLqCx3aptq5sMlGZp_LtYv0v-seiQ?key=RWdjbWRKQWs2X1JSaDAyVTRuMHk5U3dOTHJCSDVB

Here's another link with additional pictures. Hopefully it works.

https://postimg.cc/gallery/FJxTn9k

[Hubac's Historian]

WOW, Michael - that was absolutely worth the visit!  Your 1765 Victory is a remarkable achievement!

 

Everything from the quarters to the figurehead to the masting and rigging is just extremely well done.  I love your natural wood tones.   This is just an excellent example of how much more dynamic and interesting the hobby becomes, when you incorporate some scratch-work into the build.

 

I am curious to know what material you used for your sails, and what technique you employed for such realistic furls.  Please feel free to post within this log.

 

This was your first foray into that kind of build, and it came out so well because you took your time.  I think, sometimes builders become intimidated by the scratch work, but there are a handful of easy to acquire skills, like scribing for example, that make anything possible.

 

I heartily encourage everyone here to check out Michael’s Victory (see the links at the bottom of the prior page), and don’t miss out on his Heller Reale:

Of course, there is immense talent, technique and skill involved, but mostly - this kind of work is the product of patience and time.  Thanks for sharing, Michael!

Edited February 23, 2021 by Hubac's Historian

[kirill4]

YESSS!!! :)))

Michael  's Victory  looks really good!

I didn't think till today that it could be converted in her early version!

Great!!!

"Wood" color is very good !!!

What was used for suchveffect?

ALL THE BEST!!!

Kirill

[72Nova]

My pleasure gentlemen, regarding the sails I used tissue paper Marc and for the square sails I cut the paper to about a 1/4 of the actual size and for lack of a better term cut them into the shape of a jock strap so to speak..lol. I used pencil for the seams and then glued the bolt rope around the perimeter leaving just enough paper to fold over it then brushed thinned pva glue over that and once dried, a series of the thin washes using tamiya white and desert yellow acrylics to the desired color, turned the sail over working from the aft side, punched holes for attaching to the yard and started wetting the sail in small sections starting at the bottom middle and working my way out using brushes, tweezers etc until I had a basic shape and let that dry up a bit. With the yard fitted out with all the blocks I attached the sail to it, wet it again and using the gaskets I drew in closer the yard forming the furl, again using a brush to help form the shape in and around the leech and bunt line blocks.

For the clues I used small triangle shaped pieces and tucked them into the furled sail once they were rigged. Hope that helps?

 

Kirill I used tamiya desert yellow acrylic as a base followed by thin washes of red brown and raw sienna artist acrylics and just played with it until I got the desired effect followed by some slight dry brushing of red brown and raw sienna then picked out the seams with a black wash and used a Qtip to wipe away any excess, for the deck I used deck tan..( go figure) and a thin wash of red brown and those really were my primary colors through out the build.

 

Michael D.

 

[Hubac's Historian]

Thank you for these highly detailed descriptions, Michael.  Is the tissue you used the same as Modelspan?

Edited February 23, 2021 by Hubac's Historian

[kirill4]

Michael, Thank You very mach for explanation which exactly paints were used for getting such effect!

Will save this technique for future use!

Thank You!

[72Nova]

You're welcome fellas, Marc it's regular tissue paper you would see in packaging, shoes etc. Never tried Modelspan, guess I never found a need to when I first used it on my Soliel Royal.

 

Michael D.

[Heinrich der Seefahrer]

Dear Marc, 

 

great work yo did.

Cramping the QG isn't a good idea so your solution is the optical perfect way to go. A perfect way to feeding all the rivet counters and keyboard warriors* till they do burst on teir own fire and brimstine to this artic decision to go away from the plan. I do think you are completly right in this. 

 

I. 

Did you copy the top and below side of your final fit in pieces to mirrow them and reuse the done work on the port side for economically reasons? 

 

II. 

Ordonances aren't on board now Did you made a decision how to place it? One side ready to fire the other after firing? What is your olan. Adding the canons before closing the deck is crucial and is avoiding endescopial surgery on yout kit. There is no big problem for you to build every single carriage through the gunport - but does this need to happen? 

 

If yoz could dispense two further Heller kits you may buy this... 

 

 

I really like the way your build is done. 

 

WOOD IS PATIENT 

PLASTIC EQUALLY 

 

 

 

 

_______________

*

 

 

 

[Hubac's Historian]

Hello, Chris!

 

As Berain originally drew the QG, the five windows of the lower tier appear to be a kind of artifact of the First Marine design conventions.

 

 

Following the early freedom and exuberance of Puget’s early work on the Monarque, the Paris, the Scepter, and other early ships, Colbert and the crown decide that they must reign all of this in, so as not to literally embarrass themselves on the world stage.  Louis and Colbert are particularly concerned with how the new French fleet will be perceived by the English.

 

By the time, the Van de Veldes are making the following portraits in English waters, in 1672, many of these ships had been cut down, their ornament reduced and their names changed.

 

The Paris becomes the Royal Therese:

 

Le Royal Duc becomes La Reyne:

Who knows what Le Royal Duc looked like in 1668, but by 1672 La Reyne is a fairly sober looking vessel that is mainly notable for her impressive size and armament.

 

Here, the lower quarter of a large second rate:

 

By 1672, the open walkable quarters, on this lower tier of the QGs are now closed in.  Gone, are the massive split-tail tritons supporting the open walk, above.  By 1672, most French ships display this multiplicity of “windows” on the lower level.  Their number varies from ship to ship, but it hardly matters from an architectural standpoint, because it is all a facade.

 

On the other hand, as French design approaches the dawn of the second marine, there is a shift toward a more orderly and balanced presentation of the QGs.  This is what we see, manifest in the QGs of the St. Philippe of 1693, for example.

 

That Berain, apparently, chose to draw this earlier structure, in 1688/89, muddles their credibility for this later time period.  This is  but one example of why scholars of the period do not believe that these QGs belong to this period.

 

It is hard not to sympathize with that point of view, however, I see too much corollary - even where others do not - with the stern ornamentation to conclude that these quarters are anything but the rightful companion to Berain’s stern.

 

That being said, the original drawing - even if it is a facade - is cluttered and problematic.  I chose to de-clutter and reinforce harmonies with the stern ornament.

 

As for the guns, I designed this build to make it easy to install the guns after the model is complete.

 

On the lower decks, I have installed dummy carriages that are pre-drilled and positioned to point the guns in the desired attitude:

 

 

I found with my Airfix Vasa that I was constantly breaking off the gun barrels as the build progressed, which really annoyed me.

 

Unfortunately, I will have no choice but to mount the upper deck(s) guns, as the build progresses, but there will be less to break away.

 

For the same reason, I won’t put the port lids on until the end of the build.

 

The model will be displayed with all guns out, and ready for action.  My nod to historic reality will be that there are no bow or stern chase guns mounted.

 

Edited February 24, 2021 by Hubac's Historian

[Heinrich der Seefahrer]

That is an interesting point to look at Marc! 

Here two views of the Paris model it may help. 

 

 

I remember your fabulous ordonance and think I will do the same on a deck's level - as I do think there will be some light in the MD and the LD is seperated by the 7mm beech plywood I do have to paint mocca brown later on. Adding sockets for the fitting of the deck's halfs. 

 

THE LID'S ROPES MASS PRODUCTION

I do think I will make the some 150 ropes for opening the lids from yarn. Looks easy but I think these pictures where the side of the hull has something like a

 

"comical hairy moment" doesn't need to be.

 

If the amount of needed yarn is stiffed by a little cheap superglue while haning down with a weight on it so it is getting perfectly straight. When dry you can cut out the right length and adding a pair of fine rings to the gunport's lid in the right angle to the rope. When adding a yarn knot to the ring you can cut it short at it's ends and add the stiff rope from the knot up to the lead cladded hole in the hull. Using a cross pinzette will make live easier. So you can work your way along the hole hull to add the lids in same quality everywhere alwas filling the groove between knot on the ring and holes over the lid. Working from LD to MD will make the work a lot less obstaceled and by this easier. 

 

 What do you think about this idea? Is it practical to do so? 

 

 

Edited February 24, 2021 by Heinrich der Seefahrer

[Hubac's Historian]

that sounds like an organized way of working through the port lids.

[John Clements]

It is really fascinating watching and reading about how you are working your way through all the potential designs and deciding what to do. Your patience and workmanship are an example to us all, and certainly far beyond the time and effort I am willing and able to put in to my own project (not least because I am also building a Heller Scharnhorst - another model that requires a lot of research and extra work to get right, and one or two other non-maritime models).

As I mentioned before, I am sticking mainly with the kit's parts and adjusting those. It was interesting to see the much more three-dimensional carving on the stern of the Paris model but trying to emulate that is quite beyond me. What a shame Heller seem to have thought so too. Did you say earlier that you might be thinking of painting the sun chariot panel in full colour, rather than just gilt? That would be quite a departure but very striking.

Interesting too to see how you have tackled the cannon. I can identify with your frustration at losing barrels; I had to buy several extra barrels to replace ones I pushed into the lower decks of the Glorieux. I am just hoping that I've lathered enough glue over the SR carriages that they stay in place. Like Christian, I have drilled the holes for the port lid ropes and glued  the ropes on the inside so they don't disappear too until the lids are fixed on at the end.

Still waiting for my guns and tackle bits to arrive from HisModel; I think Brexit is causing us Europeans a lot of headaches, not least that I might end up paying tax on the purchase twice over.

Looking forward to the continuation of your amazing project.

[Hubac's Historian]

Thank you, John.  It is the challenge of figuring out how to do something, and present a picture of the ship that is both functionally practical and beautiful.  I am determined to show a coherent marriage of the Berain stern to these quarter galleries, in the hope (perhaps vain) that some may finally see that they have more in common, than not.  It is a passionate argument that propels me forward in a way that is hard for me to explain.

 

Yes, I will incorporate a radiant burst of sun energy emanating from all around Apollo and his horses, against a deep ultra-marine ground; this will be a nod to the artistic portraiture of this particular subject that I think will be a fitting coronation to this magnificent work of art that LeBrun/Puget/Berain evolved over time.

 

I sympathize with you, re: Brexit.  I have a hard time understanding how insular politics benefit anyone in the modern age.

 

 

[Heinrich der Seefahrer]

YOUR PROTOTYPE

 

Dear Marc, to fight a bit against the blue SR so I started a little Facebook group called 'HELLER SOLEIL ROYAL BUILDERS' and I try to argue for your way of red-ing the model colourly arguing that the blur colouring doesn't came from the Paris Museum but from the Landström's illustrations. 

 

I like to take the VASA as an exaple:

 

 

certaily he was right in the royal Swedish colours

 

So Airfix took the plans, bought a Landström book and we came  hunderds of thus modell kits following the colour sheet

 

and thousands of modelbuilders are shocked of their work of their school days. 

 

 

By the way the very same it was with SAINT PHILIPPE, too. 

 

Till JCL voted for red in his Monograpy. 

 

So you, Marc, started a revoloution as the Swiss colleague didn't finish

 

 

 

his SR till now from the 90-95 (XXth century) on. 😉

 

So I would like your argumenting support by the possibility of publishing some of the pictures inviting the colleauges into ww. modelshipworld.com so they upgreat their comunity to more serious modelbuilders and kitcollectors - would you agree?

 

 

 

because the Heller guys left this faded but original document in the drawer of the Paris Museum and went enthusiasted towards

this Lindström illustration who earned a lot of money in the  70th (XXth century) to illustrait decorplans if the 60th to 90th (XVII. century) mostly colourfull and misleading a hole industy of kit producers that hat to agree with the mainstream idea what a SR does look like. And your work is the bestvway to change this direction to the

 

REALISTIC ERA OF SR-BUILDING

 

and you are the one figure head. 

Edited February 28, 2021 by Heinrich der Seefahrer

[Hubac's Historian]

Hello Chris,

 

For a variety of reasons, I have had nothing to do with FB, from its inception.  Mark Zuckerberg’s apparent willingness to promulgate dis-information and propaganda under protection of “free speech,” in recent years, has cemented my conviction to never create a profile.  Indirectly, he has infected the minds of millions with straight-up nonsense, while simultaneously eroding their ability to discern objective reality.  It is a real problem in America, in particular.

 

That being said, I don’t condemn anyone else’s use of the platform.  Live and let live; just don’t pee on my leg and tell me it’s raining 😉

 

If you would like to publish pictures of my model on the SR page, you are free to do so.  I’m more than happy to engage with anyone who then decides to join our community at MSW.

 

I don’t know that I will necessarily take on the mantle of “leader of the reds.”  What I am doing, I think, is historically plausible; the faded evidence of red exists on Berain’s original drawing, as you noted.  I would never say, though, that what I am doing is absolutely the truth. It all remains an educated guess.

[kirill4]

Good day Christian,

Why need to fight against "blue " version of SR and even arrange group?

It doesn't like "black and white" and nothing else more!

And Why do You think this "blue-gold "combination for SR came from the Landström's illustrations?

For Vasa model ,most probably - yes, it is

but SR( and other SunKing vessels) colors is great different story!

It doesn't depend on from Landstrem choice at all...

Marc ,In one of his posts, shown us contemporary picture of SR exactly in blue and monochrome gold carving colors of the stern and hull.and more others.. and we need to consider other pictures of the period which clearly demonstarte using blue and monochrome gold coloring?

And in the  same time,

There are many evidences that Red + monochrom gold colors were also in use in parallel with blue+gold colors ...

However , there is perfect Marc choice ,which in my opinion ,  is the  3rd way of SR coloring !

By my opinion, in style of Vasa latest colors, probably it could represents  early barocco, when each carving elements were more intensive  painted with wide range of colors ...?

But early Marc gave already very solid and argumented explanations why he choose this style for his SR model...

Edited February 28, 2021 by kirill4

[Hubac's Historian]

I agree completely with Kirill.  To be clear, I am not arguing against blue and gold.  Blue will still figure very prominently in what I am going to do.  My main argument, here, is that it would not likely have been a dark ultra-marine.

 

I have chosen this lighter Cerulean shade as my primary blue, mostly because I like the way it looks against the yellow ocher.

 

 

Strictly speaking, though, I do not think this is a period-correct color for 1689.

 

All models are a pastiche of correctness and stylistic choices.  Some of the paint choices I am making are deliberately to emphasize all of the work that was put into the ornamental  program.  As a finishing touch, I will buck orthodoxy and make the style of lanterns that I would like, as opposed to what Berain drew.  That doesn’t necessarily make them “correct” choices; just my choices.

Edited February 28, 2021 by Hubac's Historian

[John Clements]

The cerulean blue, which is quite close in shade to the blue plastic used by Heller, is one of the Bourbon house colours as in the drum in the picture below (best I could find in a hurry). It was extensively also used as the background in the triple fleur-de-lys coat of arms used by the Bourbons which appears on ships and on military flags, so I think it is a very suitable colour to use.

[popeye2sea]

For what It's worth, the cerulean blue is also very close to Prussian Blue, which was a very common color used in the militaries of the period.

 

Regards,

 

[Heinrich der Seefahrer]

Thanks for the answrts... I do think the big problem is that that there is a timeline for Prussian Blue was developed in 1706 by Johann Jacob Diesbach and the formula was published in 1724 so the restricted use of blue was open for a massproduction - so before 1706 only blur stone could be milled and mixed with oil to get blue colours amd was extremely expensive comparable to gold; after 1706 the situation changed to a cheaper blue analog to the huge price of vermillion red and after 1726 the hole thing changed to a complete availability of blue for anybody.

 

But Landström did put blue where he wants and needs it even on a SAINT PHILIPPE 1693... where it couldn't have been. 

 

That is the very reason why the 1747 ANEMONE is completely on it's own right in blue but a pre1706 ship could only have limited amount of of blue in it's coloursheme.

 

Between 1706 and 1726 the situation is complex but reasonably blue will appeta much more often on the ships of primeure rang. 

 

So I do not fight against blue I do doubt too expensive solutions even the wealthy sunking couldn't afford. 

 

And colouring of fabric for clothing is something complety different and the reason why I argued

 

blue fabric as underlyer for grit or Fleur-de-Lys  solutions - keeping the fabric fixed down on the wood. 

 

Edited March 1, 2021 by Heinrich der Seefahrer

[Hubac's Historian]

I do not think it is accurate to say that blue colors could only be derived from blue stones, prior to 1706.  I am pretty sure paints were being mixed with copper oxides to produce lighter blues.

[Heinrich der Seefahrer]

As many of us do have got their problems with the french manual of the kit here the English translation for you:

https://www.hismodel.com/_filemanager/download.php?Id=86

[Heinrich der Seefahrer]

1 hour ago, Hubac's Historian said:

I do not think it is accurate to say that blue colors could only be derived from blue stones, prior to 1706.  I am pretty sure paints were being mixed with copper oxides to produce lighter blues.

 

Yes Marc, lighter blue, greenish blue and there my bee a possibility in milled glass. So that's it at possible colours coming close to blue before 1706 came to progress -

 

but for this deep blue we do see in here you would need Lapislazuli stones to come to this intensity of the colour and the opacity of it. 

 

During the next time I will do a series of tests due to the expertise of Dr. Kremer from www.kremer-pigmente.com to this topic and hope to bring some light into the darkness... 

Edited March 1, 2021 by Heinrich der Seefahrer

[John Clements]

Can I put in my ha'porth?

Marc is right about the copper oxide blues, and there was indigo too. Both could be lightened by mixing with lighter colours, as is evident from skies in paintings. And can I also add that cerulean blue is similar to the drum in the picture I posted earlier, French blue is the colour of the drummer's coat and Prussian blue (only invented in 1706 as Christian said) is noticeably darker again. Any reputable colour chart will show that.

What I think is more important, though, is how can we be sure that the artist chose the exact colour (assuming that they saw the same ship), or that the document has not faded or the colour metamorphosed with time and the degradation of its chemical elements? And as I think Christian infers, as the processes of dying cloth and painting solid surfaces are quite different, can we make assumptions from one to the other and use common terminology?

This is all such a minefield!

[mtaylor]

As for the blue.... there is a recent book on this topic.  I have two links to it.

 

 

[Hubac's Historian]

Well, Mark - that should take the guesswork out of the whole equation.  Thank you for the references!

[mtaylor]

4 hours ago, Hubac's Historian said:

Well, Mark - that should take the guesswork out of the whole equation.  Thank you for the references!

As long as it doesn't take the fun out though.  

[Heinrich der Seefahrer]

On 3/2/2021 at 1:38 AM, mtaylor said:

As for the blue.... there is a recent book on this topic.  I have two links to it.

 

 

http://www.modellbau-muellerschoen.de/

The book is about US$ 80, - And very very interesting. 

Edited March 4, 2021 by Heinrich der Seefahrer

[Hubac's Historian]

A sudden rush of “affordable” housing opportunity has slowed me down considerably, this past week, but I have managed to make some progress.

 

 

I’ve closed-in the port side quarter gallery.  In the process, I left a small CA fingerprint on one of my glass panes.  It isn’t terrible, but its presence annoys me.  I haven’t tried acetone for fear that it will mar the acetate.  Isopropyl had no effect after a half-hour of effort.  Does anyone have any experience with using this product from BSI on plastic?

 

https://www.amazon.com/Bob-Smith-Industries-BSI-161-Debonder/dp/B0000DD1QS/ref=asc_df_B0000DD1QS/?tag=hyprod-20&linkCode=df0&hvadid=198100706044&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=3451084920448221665&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=m&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9067609&hvtargid=pla-379516931894&psc=1

 

If need be, I can live with the blemish, but I would rather remove it.  Any other ideas?

 

Otherwise, I’ve been coping together the parts for the wrapping balcony:

 

 

 

After I secure these, there are planking overlays that complete the illusion, while also providing a glue-lip for the balcony rail.

 

 

As they are really quite good, I still plan to use the stock Four Seasons figures:

 

 

They will require some delicate chiropractic surgery in order to reach the new geometric relationship between the lower false balcony and the wrapping middle balcony.

 

 

I’m not sure yet how I will go about this, but I have a spare set, in case I mess up.

 

I am debating placing corbel support beneath the outermost extension of the walk.  It doesn’t make sense to me that there wouldn’t be additional support, here.  

 

My walk is not quite as deep as the stock kit part; I recognized that there would be limitations to how far I could stretch the Four Seasons figures, so I made the walk a little more shallow.  The unintended result of that, though, is that even the smaller of the stock corbels are too big for here:

 

 

It is not a big deal, though, as I would only have to make one pair from scratch.

 

Today, I was near the WarHammer shop, so I picked up a vibrant silver metallic and a plant-green wash coat.

 

 

My idea is to incorporate silver leaf into the build, in select spaces, and to even use a faint green over-wash, on top of the silver.  One possible application for this might be the acanthus-flanked monogram escutcheons between the main deck guns; I’ll experiment with greened silver on the acanthus branches.  Maybe it will look terrible, but it might be interesting.  I took the idea from the elaborately painted and gilt interior of St. Francis de Sales church on East 96th Street.

 

In other activities, I picked up what is actually the Grand Chaloupe from my father’s house, this past weekend.  It is significantly larger than the one I did earlier.  I am detailing as I did before:

 

 

There is a significant warp in the hull, but the thwart insert piece straightens this out, for the most part.

 

Well, that’s where things stand, for now.  Thank you for the likes, comments and for stopping in.

 

 

 

 

Edited March 12, 2021 by Hubac's Historian

[72Nova]

Great stuff...WOW!!. For that blemish I'd probably leave it alone Marc, but not after applying a gloss clear acrylic on a test piece just for the heck of it, it might mask it a bit.

 

Michael D.