Cyanoacrylate (CA) Glue for Rigging

[EdT]

Isopropanol is very quick and effective loosening pva glued knots - and very fast.

 

Ed

[BobG]

I took a brief look at your YA build and, wow...this level of modeling is way over my head so thank you so much for taking the time to share this useful information about splices with a relative beginner like me. The MSW forum is a treasure trove of information and willing assistance to modelers of all skill levels. 

 

Bob 

Edited March 4, 2020 by BobG

[BobG]

3 hours ago, wefalck said:

Kind of reveals my age, but here is a PDF of an article I published in 1980 in German ship modelling magazine. Note sketches 13 and 14 on the second page:

 

https://www.maritima-et-mechanika.org/maritime/tips/FALCK-SM-5-80.pdf

 

 

Thanks for the link, wefalck. That's some seriously intricate splicing! I'm amazed at what skilled modelers are about to do on such a small scale.

 

Bob

[Bob Cleek]

Interesting discussion. I'm a member of the "avoid CA as much as possible" school of thought. My objections to it are mainly that it's nasty to work with and hard to control in a lot of instances, it invariably gets someplace you don't want it, that often being my fingers, it's quite expensive as far as adhesives go, and it too often kicks off in the bottle, stored in the freezer or not. That said, I do find it convenient for stiffening the ends of rope for threading it through blocks and deadeyes, as well as certain challenging adhesive applications. By the same token, though, I prefer clear acetone-based nail polish for stiffening rigging line points, which is more convenient to use with its brush-in-the-cap feature and low price. 

 

I've nothing to add when it comes to CA, but I'm surprised that nobody's mentioned clear shellac for stiffening the ends of rigging line, cementing knots, and for shaping catenaries and coils of cordage. It is easy to apply, it doesn't leave any visible gloss or change color (unless you apply multiple coats of the stuff,) it is alcohol soluble and easily undone if need be, its "archival" and contains no acids, and it's dirt cheap. Heck, it's even edible, if your one who worries about such things. (It's what makes jelly beans shiny.) As the alcohol in a shellac-soaked line begins to evaporate, which can be accelerated by blowing on it, the line becomes progressively less flexible. At that point, it can be shaped in any fashion desired and, once the alcohol is fully evaporated, the line will remain fixed in the position desired.

 

Shellac was once a basic material in ship modeling. It seems to have been forgotten over the decades. it's good stuff.

[BobG]

31 minutes ago, Bob Cleek said:

Heck, it's even edible, if your one who worries about such things. (It's what makes jelly beans shiny.)

Edible shellac...😳 You may have forever changed my appetite for jelly  beans!

[DaveyJones]

Back in 1970’s I started, but never completed, a kit model in which I used CA liberally to secure rigging knots and splices. The model had been stored for 40 years in a box in darkness since that time. On recent examination, many of the knots have failed, with lines hanging loose or lying on deck. The remaining rigging is brittle and disintegrates on contact. My advice would be to avoid CA for rigging at all costs.

 

These days I use dilute neutral pH PVA adhesive exclusively for securing rigging. I avoid regular PVA formulations because of their initial acidity when in a liquid state, which presumably becomes more neutral as the glue polymerises and hardens. As all chemical reactions are reversible, I think I read somewhere, that over time, hardened PVA can depolymerise to produce polyvinyl alcohol and acetic acid. The acid could be deleterious if it come in contact with cotton rigging.

 

I have also used acrylic matt medium at times for securing rigging lines. However, on testing the particular formulation I was using, found it to be extremely acidic (pH <4). I would advise those using Matt medium to check the pH of the formulation they are using.

 

Dave

[Bob Cleek]

1 hour ago, BobG said:

Edible shellac...😳 You may have forever changed my appetite for jelly  beans!

Yeah, lac bettle crap makes jelly beans shiny. The same is true for M&M's and other candies. You'll just have to get over it. What more can I say? 

 

The main ingredients in jelly beans are sugar, food starch, and corn syrup, which combine to give them a soft but chewy texture. Although jelly beans are considered vegetarian because they are not made from animal products, they are not classified as vegan because their outer shells are made from an animal byproduct. Shellac is responsible for providing the exterior that makes jelly beans shiny. It is produced from the secretions of female lac beetles. After the substance is dissolved in alcohol, it is applied to jelly beans and other candies to create a glossy shell that protects the softer middle from melting or sticking to packaging.

 

See: https://www.mentalfloss.com/article/91129/jelly-bean-day-fact-jelly-beans-are-made-insect-secretions

 

 

 

Edited March 5, 2020 by Bob Cleek

[BobG]

Is there any limit to what one can learn on this forum? 🤯

[mtaylor]

17 minutes ago, BobG said:

Is there any limit to what one can learn on this forum? 🤯

I don't think so.  I've been here since I think around the first year and learn something new everyday.

[wefalck]

Well I have used shellac as the only wood varnish on my models for over 40 years now. In order to avoid the laboursome procedure of 'french polishing' I use it over nitrocellulose wood-filler (which I sometimes use as the only treatment).

 

Due its fast drying properties, shellac is a very versatile product and one may not be aware of its many everyday uses. Have a look at the bottom of the Wikipedia-page: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shellac

 

I am just reading a book on art materials, art techniques and conservation techniques. In this context long-term stability is of utmost importance and shellac is preferred varnish to protect oil paintings and pastels. On oil paintings this varnishing is reversible due to it alcohol solubility.

 

Mixed with fillers, shellac also make a good thermo-setting 'bio-plastic' - remember those 'shellacs' before vinyl records were introduced in the 1960s ? You can also create your own compound materials by soaking e.g. paper in shellac.

 

Most shellacs are slightly yellow in tint, at least those sold for DIY purposes. Artist supply stores also sell a more expensive bleached variety.

 

If you need a colourless and very fast (faster than shellac) drying lacquer you can use zapon lacquer. This is nitrocellulose dissolved in a mixture of ethyl acetate, ethanol, and amyl acetate. The ethyl acetate has a higher vapour pressure than ethanol, which is the reason why it evaporates faster. You can get it in many DIY and also good art supply stores. Tradtional nail varnish is essentially the same, but typically more viscous due to higher nitrocellulose content and has a lower vapour pressure, i.e. it dries fast, but slower than shellac. In addition, the ladies seem to be prepared to pay a much higher price for their beauty

 

 

 

[tkay11]

3 hours ago, wefalck said:

I use it over nitrocellulose wood-filler

Did you mean nitrocelluose wood sealer? Also, do you use the bleached shellac as the varnish, or the ordinary variety? I used to make up my own shellac from the flakes for finishing furniture, so I might be tempted to start doing that again for the ship models.

 

Tony

[wefalck]

I was talking about nitrocellulose varnish/lacquer with pumice mixed in. Some people call it sealer, but its function is actually a filler - kind of 'french polish' in one go.

 

On wood I use the ordinary, slightly orange variety, because it is this what you get in DIY stores. It imparts also a warm 'depth' to the wood. However, I would not use this type on rigging, as it changes the colour of the material.

 

For rigging purposes I prefer 'zapon' lacquer, as it is less brittle than shellac. The brittleness on rigging also depends on how concentrated you apply it. I rather dilute shellac solution would be sufficient, that just soaks into the thread without covering it visibly. Then the brittleness might be less of a problem. Shellac was traditionally used to stiffen fabrics, for instance the felt used in bowler hats.

[Justin P.]

I think for the purposes of feeding rigging through tiny holes, nothing beats a good large eye needle.   I found these amazing beading needles that are unlike any I've ever seen before.   More like elongated hoops made from very fine wire.  At first glance, they appear to have no hole at all but with closer inspection they are actually one giant hole collapsed onto themselves with a point at each end.   Extremely versatile, and useful with the smallest of diameter holes.   

 

For consolidation of lines, truthfully nothing beats wax.   As a conservator, we take surface coatings and consolidating materials quite seriously.   PVA in whatever dilution would and is absolutely avoided in every occasion.  Accelerated aging tests have proven that it will become intolerably acidic over time and almost always discolors.   For the purposes of coating lines (consolidating) where wax is otherwise difficult to pull off or is unseemly I have been experimenting with a 2-5% solution of Hydroxypropyl Cellulose in Ethanol.   This material is sold under the name "Klucel-G," and is pretty widely used in cultural heritage conservation for similar purposes to that in ship model construction.  Most cellulose derivatives will provide similar characteristics to PVA without the shine or the aging problems, and when mixed in a solvent-base form will dry rapidly without a tacky feel.  

 

EDITED:  I wanted to add too that CA glue would be at the very bottom of the list (actually not even on the list at all), particularly when used as an adhesive for organic cellulosic materials like cotton, wood, linen etc.    Its use in ship modeling (though highly convenient in the short term) is not the greatest choice for the longevity of your models.    

 

For some interesting reading, check out this Wiki on adhesives.   This list comprises most if not all adhesives used on objects/artifacts derived from cellulosic materials (paper/wood).   Ship models are very similar in make when considering sails and rigging.   

 

Edited March 5, 2020 by Justin P.

[Bob Cleek]

4 hours ago, wefalck said:

On wood I use the ordinary, slightly orange variety, because it is this what you get in DIY stores. It imparts also a warm 'depth' to the wood. However, I would not use this type on rigging, as it changes the colour of the material.

In the US, three pound cut Zinsser "Bullseye" Brand shellac can be bought in any paint or hardware store. The "clear" (bleached) version is the most common, actually. The "amber" version (which we used to call "orange shellac") is only found in the stores with a wider selection. (Orange shellac, which enhances the color, is used as a wood finish.) "Natural" (amber) and "bleached flakes are also available. I've read that mixed shellac has a shelf life of about two years. I've never had any "go bad" in the can, but I can't say that I've not ever consumed a can over that long a time. 

 

I heartily concur with your comments about shellac. I've been using it for over forty years, to. It's my "go-to" sealer for modeling and other woodworking applications. I always apply shellac to every part of my models except, as appropriate, on rigging line. Shellac is one of best moisture barriers known and limits the movement of wood parts due to changes in ambient humidity. As you mentioned, I also soak various weights of card stock in shellac for modeling purposes. A shellac-impregnated piece of paper costs virtually nothing, is easy to work, and is an archival material of great longevity. It's far preferable to styrene sheet material for similar applications.

 

I also use shellac on "fuzzy" wood species, such as basswood. Once the wood surface is well-shellacked, it can be sanded or rubbed with steel wool to a perfectly smooth, "fuzz-less," surface. The shellac hardens the wood into which it soaks, making it possible to achieve the crisp edges desired on fine work without resorting to more expensive and/or hard to source wood species.

 

Shellac is the only finish available that is totally "green." It's made entirely from renewable resources, is non-toxic, and meets all air quality standards.

 

 

Edited March 5, 2020 by Bob Cleek

[Bob Cleek]

2 hours ago, Justin P. said:

PVA in whatever dilution would and is absolutely avoided in every occasion.  Accelerated aging tests have proven that it will become intolerably acidic over time and almost always discolors.   ... 

 

EDITED:  I wanted to add too that CA glue would be at the very bottom of the list (actually not even on the list at all), particularly when used as an adhesive for organic cellulosic materials like cotton, wood, linen etc.    Its use in ship modeling (though highly convenient in the short term) is not the greatest choice for the longevity of your models.    

I've become more aware of these facts in recent times. The destructive effects of acids in the stagnant atmosphere of ship model cases are well-documented. I've decided to avoid them as much as possible. Perhaps it's time to return to the use of hide glue for model assembly applications? 

 

Justin, what do the professional restorers and conservators consider the best archival adhesives for ship modeling applications?

[BobG]

8 hours ago, wefalck said:

I am just reading a book on art materials, art techniques and conservation techniques. In this context long-term stability is of utmost importance and shellac is preferred varnish to protect oil paintings and pastels.

My wife is a talented pastel artist and she sprays her pastels with an artist fixative to help preserve them. Pastels are delicate because they tend to "shed" easily and, even after using the artist fixative, they have to be handled gently. I've used her fixative to spray the paper friezes before I glued them onto my Medway Longboat as Chuck recommends. Are these artist fixatives the same thing as the shellac that you are referring to for preserving pastels and oil paintings? If not, what is the preferred shellac that the art book you are reading recommends?

 

4 hours ago, wefalck said:

On wood I use the ordinary, slightly orange variety, because it is this what you get in DIY stores. It imparts also a warm 'depth' to the wood. However, I would not use this type on rigging, as it changes the colour of the material.

 

For rigging purposes I prefer 'zapon' lacquer, as it is less brittle than shellac.

I will give the orange shellac and the zapon lacquer a try. Thanks!

 

 

[BobG]

3 hours ago, Justin P. said:

think for the purposes of feeding rigging through tiny holes, nothing beats a good large eye needle.   I found these amazing beading needles that are unlike any I've ever seen before.   More like elongated hoops made from very fine wire.  At first glance, they appear to have no hole at all but with closer inspection they are actually one giant hole collapsed onto themselves with a point at each end.   Extremely versatile, and useful with the smallest of diameter holes.   

Thanks, Justin. I just watched a youtube video that showed how these wide-eyed needles. I was trying to make some splices like Ed uses on some Syren rope using some sewing needles that my wife had in her sewing box. I couldn't get the tip of the rope through the eye. These wide-eyed needles would certainly simplify that task but the needle itself looks to be quite wide in the video I watched. Have you found that you can pass these needles through small ropes like Ed does when he makes a splice? Do you have different sizes for the different tasks?

 

3 hours ago, Justin P. said:

For the purposes of coating lines (consolidating) where wax is otherwise difficult to pull off or is unseemly I have been experimenting with a 2-5% solution of Hydroxypropyl Cellulose in Ethanol.   This material is sold under the name "Klucel-G,"

Are you using the "Klucel-G" at full strength or diluting it with the Ethanol solution? 

 

 

[Bob Cleek]

14 minutes ago, BobG said:

I will give the orange shellac and the zapon lacquer a try. 

I think wefalck mentioned that he uses orange shellac because that's what's easily available to him. I'd advise using the "clear" shellac, which imparts little or no color. The "orange" appears a bit orange on the first coat and, if coats are built up, darkens to a rich mahogany brown. It's great for finishing wood, if that's the effect you want, but not unless you want that color.

[BobG]

58 minutes ago, Bob Cleek said:

I heartily concur with your comments about shellac. I've been using it for over forty years, to. It's my "go-to" sealer for modeling and other woodworking applications. I always apply shellac to every part of my models except, as appropriate, on rigging line.

It looks like I need to explore the virtues of shellac!

 

 

[BobG]

1 hour ago, Bob Cleek said:

. As you mentioned, I also soak various weights of card stock in shellac for modeling purposes

Bob, do you do this for building card models? Would it also be good for paper friezes printed on ordinary 20# printer paper? It seems like that might be too messy for such thin paper and the spray artist fixative would be better suited for this.

 

 

[Justin P.]

52 minutes ago, Bob Cleek said:

I've become more aware of these facts in recent times. The destructive effects of acids in the stagnant atmosphere of ship model cases are well-documented. I've decided to avoid them as much as possible. Perhaps it's time to return to the use of hide glue for model assembly applications? 

 

Justin, what do the professional restorers and conservators consider the best archival adhesives for ship modeling applications?

I don't think we need to return to hide glue.   PVA for use in model construction is fine in most cases.   I was referring to it within the context of its use consolidating rigging, or when folks take a diluted concentration of PVA and coat entire lengths of their rigging to "strengthen" or provide a "protective" layer.   In the short term is does both of these things, it is the long term where there is concern. 

 

In terms of what conservators use for ship modeling applications, it wouldn't be for me to say.   My specialty is with books and paper, and as such much of my expertise does overlap with only elements of ship modeling practice (i.e rigging, sails), basically elements that are derived from cellulosic materials (cotton, linen).   Object conservator, wooden artifact conservators and even furniture restorers would have more applicable knowledge when considering the wood aspect of the ship model.   There are a couple boniifed ship model conservators in the forum who might weigh in.  

[dvm27]

Can you provide a link for those needles Justin?

[Justin P.]

25 minutes ago, BobG said:

Thanks, Justin. I just watched a youtube video that showed how these wide-eyed needles. I was trying to make some splices like Ed uses on some Syren rope using some sewing needles that my wife had in her sewing box. I couldn't get the tip of the rope through the eye. These wide-eyed needles would certainly simplify that task but the needle itself looks to be quite wide in the video I watched. Have you found that you can pass these needles through small ropes like Ed does when he makes a splice? Do you have different sizes for the different tasks?

 

Are you using the "Klucel-G" at full strength or diluting it with the Ethanol solution? 

 

 

The needles I use will do what you describe and are the same width from one end to the other, and that width is very, very small.  This is the needle I found one day wandering around behind my wife in a Jo-Ann Fabric store: https://www.joann.com/beading-needle/7701063.html?utm_source=google&utm_medium=cpc&source=TIS-S&WT.srch=1&gclid=CjwKCAiA44LzBRB-EiwA-jJipJJFZG4jigSkz3qbSi2nywOavKfnG1xPpQmfVxXf8UcECm1lLQ0skBoCnnkQAvD_BwE

 

They are very thin, and are more like two extremely thin wires soldered at each end.   They are flexible, so you pull the two apart, slip in your thread and it pinches down and holds it.   They work wonderfully, and Ive only needed the one size for all applications.   To look at them, you would think it is a single piece of wire with no eye.   

 

As for the Klucel-G, yes it is a solution.   So 2% would be 2 grams of powder to 100ml of Ethanol, etc.   

[wefalck]

BobG, I don't know what's in your wife's fixative, so I cannot comment on it. The point is to not 'soak' a pastel or it will loose its character. With too much fixative, it will look like a gouache painting.

 

The book I have was written in the 1970s originally, with some revisions in the 1990s. The author has been aware of more recent developments in binders, such as acrylics, but at his time they hadn't been fully developed yet.

 

What shellac to use depends on the purpose and effect you try to achieve. So one cannot recommend either or the other in principle.

 

I have never used Klucel G myself, but was aware that it is used as an adhesive e.g. in paper restoration, I think. It comes as a powder that you have to dissolve in the alcohol. The ratio presumably depends on the viscosity you need. Also too much of the binder may make for a weak bond. You always want the minimum of adhesive that keys into your materials on both sides of the bond, that gives you the strongest bond.

 

As we converse, I am working on a project where I make extensive use of paper re-enforced by lacquer (actually nitrocellulose as it were). Not that I am particularly fond of it, because it is difficult to get a really smooth surface (as on styrene or on bakelite paper), but I recently bought a small laser-cutter and make the tiny parts that I had planned to etch originally. But this is another conversation. This laser-cutter only cuts paper reasonably well. The strategy is to soak the paper as much as possible, let it dry, smooth it with very fine steelwool and then assemble/laminate with more lacquer. Just check out my SMS WESPE building log.

 

Apropos threaders - we had this discussion recently somewhere else, but I would like to re-iterate my main observation: if you can use a needle threader on blocks, the holes in the blocks are too big. The width of the sheaves is only a fraction wider than the rope for which it is meant, otherwise the rope would jam. So threaders are not really useful at least for blocks.

[BobG]

2 minutes ago, dvm27 said:

Can you provide a link for those needles Justin?

They have them at fabric and craft stores like Joann's and there are all sorts of big eye beading needles on Amazon.

 

 

 

 

 

[Justin P.]

Ill just add one more thought about the use of Shellac.   I would tend to want to reserve Shellac for the wood finishes and rely on something else for the rigging.   The wholesale "spraying" of a completed model with a single concentration of Shellac just trips an alarm for me.   Shellac is not a barrier, and really is more a finish then a protectant.  IN fact its tendency to wick moisture (a main catalyst in acid degradation) is greater then that of wood itself.  Similarly, best practice would be to tailor the finish/protectant to the materials.   As a complex structure of mixed materials, I would probably take a different course of action.   That said, I am in no way saying that the practice as described above is wrong, just that my training gives me anxiety when I think about it.   This is where the advice and training of a real artifact/ship model conservator is more appropriate.   

[Justin P.]

1 hour ago, Bob Cleek said:

I've become more aware of these facts in recent times. The destructive effects of acids in the stagnant atmosphere of ship model cases are well-documented. I've decided to avoid them as much as possible. Perhaps it's time to return to the use of hide glue for model assembly applications? 

I would recommend anyone who is concerned get in the practice of monitoring the temp and RH of their cases.   A tiny obscure one can be found at https://www.universityproducts.com/mini-digital-humidity-and-temperature-meter.html

 

Maintaining somewhere between 50-55% RH and 70F would be a good target.

[BobG]

8 hours ago, Justin P. said:

I think for the purposes of feeding rigging through tiny holes, nothing beats a good large eye needle.

Here is a very interesting video that explains the use of various beading needles such as the big eye needle and the twisted needle that has a large eye that collapses as it is pulled through a small opening that could possibly be useful also in rigging. The narrator also likes to use gum Arabic beading glue to stiffen the ends of thread. Perhaps that would be useful with small ropes also.

 

Big eye needle use begins at 2:16

Twisted/ Collapsible needle use begins at 4:08

Gum Arabic glue use begins at 5:25

 

 

Edited March 5, 2020 by BobG

[Justin P.]

16 minutes ago, wefalck said:

Apropos threaders - we had this discussion recently somewhere else, but I would like to re-iterate my main observation: if you can use a needle threader on blocks, the holes in the blocks are too big. The width of the sheaves is only a fraction wider than the rope for which it is meant, otherwise the rope would jam. So threaders are not really useful at least for blocks.

I recommend you check out the threaders I linked above.   They are by-far the thinnest Ive ever seen and sewing is a big part of my life.   I would say (without the benefit of measuring them) that they are no more than .5mm in diameter.  

[BobG]

18 minutes ago, Justin P. said:

The needles I use will do what you describe and are the same width from one end to the other, and that width is very, very small.

I'm not going to do anymore rigging on my Medway Longboat until I get out to Jo-Ann and get a couple of big eye needles and I hope they have some twisted beading needles also. I might even try the gum Arabic for stiffening the ends of thread and ropes. 

 

This is a great conversation full of good information. Thanks to everyone for contributing to it!