HMS Bellona 1760 by SJSoane - Scale 1:64 - English 74-gun - as designed

[shipman]

38 minutes ago, SJSoane said:

I wonder if anyone has published where individual models from Greenwich and the Science Museum are now located, not just the museum location, but also whether they are in storage or on public display?

As I understand it, many of the Maritime Museum models are in storage at Chatham Historic Dockyard, with a selection on display in the public areas. Both organisations allow supervised access to specific models upon request, by appointment.

It would seem the Science Museums collection is also in storage. However, several 'modern' builders models (HMS Vanguard for example) are now at the Glasgow Maritime Museum. Many were on loan to the SM, and were returned to the owners, some of which have sold via auction houses. Someone somewhere must have records of where everything went, but as time goes by it may be difficult to trace each item.

The whole episode is quite a scandal in my opinion. A large and historically significant number of the models were bequeathed to these 'National' museums, with the proviso they were on display to the public. If I was in a position to loan or give something significant to any museum, I wouldn't feel confident that my wishes would be respected, or the item cared for properly. Things ain't what they used to be.

I would encourage anyone who had the opportunity to take good quality photo's of these collections to download them here or somewhere accessible on the internet, individually or as albums, for the benefit of all who no longer have and been denied access to these valuable historical assets.

[garyshipwright]

Hi Mark you could go to work on building your rudder, braces, pintles and tiller which will take you some time. Give you a short break that you need from the planking. Of course you have to make sure that it works when all is said and done.  ;o)  Then you can  work on the cavings which I havn't even started yet. Seems it took me a while to make the metal work for it and thought I was never going to get that part done. One thing is for sure there is plenty of things to make and build for her, that and working on the honey dues. Guess I better go cut the yard now. Gary

[SJSoane]

Hi Gary,

 

I realized, as I looked forward, that I have been avoiding the question of the spirketting on the gun deck. I can't get a lot further until I deal with this. So, time to think about how to do it. I'll have a look at your great job again.

 

A big challenge is how to color it black. I know from the external planking that the outer face needs dubbing down to form a smooth surface out of the individual planks abutting each other at an angle. So, how to install the spirketting, smooth down its surface, and then color? I have used shoe dye for all black on the project so far, but I am afraid it would run into the waterway. Maybe color the edges before installing, then smooth, then color the middle? Or, mask and spray paint.

 

Good thing we never run out of issues to address, or life would get boring!

 

Best wishes,

 

Mark

[druxey]

Pre-dye the planks, install and smooth, then retouch with a small brush and buff. The dye blends nicely with itself. Please mask everything else first. It's amazing how far tiny droplets can fly - much like the coronavirus! If you can work with the model on its side, then at least you won't be working across the model and fighting gravity.

[Mark P]

Good Morning Mark;

 

I am slightly surprised by your desire to paint the spirketting black. Just to be sure, this is inboard works, and the Bellona model in the NMM has its gundeck spirketting painted red (and the quickwork) All other models I have seen have their spirketting red, or natural wood colour. Do you have a reason for choosing black.

 

I am fairly sure that I have seen references to gundeck sides being painted in a stone colour (a pale buff) and perhaps yellow ochre also; but I have never seen any mention of black being used.

 

All the best,

 

Mark P

[druxey]

I can't recall which NMM or SM model now, but I remember seeing at least one with black spirketting on the upper deck.

[SJSoane]

Hi Mark, thanks for catching that! I have regularly been looking at the Princess Royal in Rob Napier's book for model construction details, and it has black spirketting and natural quickwork. I guess it just sort of soaked into my head that I would be doing the same. But more accurate to follow the Bellona model, of course.

 

I can see from my photos of the second Bellona model that spirketting and quickwork are red on the upper deck and on the exposed areas of the quarterdeck and forecastle ; I assume it is the same on the gundeck. And do you know if it is also red in the captain's cabin? I had it in my head that this needed to be a green color, but I don't recall where I saw that or what the exact color would be. Indeed, I have not yet installed the deck clamps for the poop deck, because I wanted to color them the final color before installation.

 

Given that the spirketting and quickwork would be red, then I would need to use my usual red dye; so druxey, your advice is doubly important here. I have no way to do red except as my dye. All red does simplify coloring around the gunports, since it just wraps around the edges.

 

Mark

[garyshipwright]

Hi Mark.  Could it have been the green color that Siggi52 was using on his model  of the Dragon?    As far as the spirketting, what you could do is cut out the bottom piece, top and bottom,  pin it in place and then put a piece of card file behind it and  mark off the bottom  edge of the 2nd piece.  Once you have the bottom of the second piece all cut out and fitted then you can use the bottom cill to get the height of this piece. That is what I did and then I put treenail's in to the holes with just a tad of glue to hold them in place.  You also can paint or dye the pieces before you install them. Hope this helps and maybe gives you a ideal or two.   Gary

[druxey]

Here's a contemporary painting c.1770:

 

https://collections.rmg.co.uk/collections/objects/14024.html

 

I've seen cabins on contemporary models painted in pale grey-green and also one in a robin's egg blue!

[Mark P]

Thanks Druxey;

 

As you say above, the Captain's cabin most often received special treatment. The more mundane parts of the ship were normally painted with whatever was available, or cheapest. 

 

Mark is right about the spirketting in the Princess Royal; but that is seemingly much less common. I have not seen it in any of the models I have photographed. Not that I doubt your memory, Druxey (I do doubt my own quite often, though)

 

See below for pictures from the Bellona model in the NMM.

 

The red inboard planking of the gun-deck can be seen between the upper deck ledges. The dark area above it is a shadow from the planked portion above. Note also the red faces of the beams (not the ledges, though) and the vertical sides (the strings) of the ladders.

 

Interestingly enough, it would appear that the Captain's cabin is painted a different colour, see also below. Note the colours of the doors, the beams, and the difference between the small cabin afore the Captain's quarters, and the area aft of it. If you decide to paint this white, do not use a pure, modern white. Georgian white paint was off-white. 

 

All the best,

 

Mark P

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[garyshipwright]

Hi druxey and thank you for the picture. That does look like  the same green color that Siggi52  used on his Dragon but not 100 percent sure.  Any way of finding what color this green really is and mixing up the color?  Gary

[Mark P]

Good Afternoon Gary;

 

Look for Georgian decoration or simple panelling in the rooms of Country Houses or town houses, owned by the National Trust or similar, as shown online. There are certainly some examples there. 

 

All the best,

 

Mark P

[Hubac's Historian]

Interestingly, I have read of a similar grey/green color used for the officers’ quarters of French 17th C. ships, though I would have to do some searching to find specific reference.

[Siggi52]

Hello,

 

Mark, the officers quarters at the upper deck and the captains cabin where painted white at the Bellona. I thought that I send you all my pictures I have of the Bellona!

 

 

 

Here you could see it also at the deck beams.

 

 

That light blue or green color was very popular during the 18. century and even before and later. The color I used for the Dragon is from Humbrol „Matt 65" 

 

A good example for colouring a ship is the Victory model SLR0512 https://collections.rmg.co.uk/collections/objects/66473.html

Here you could see the whole middle deck is painted white inside, the cabins at the upper deck are blue and at the quarter deck green. The spirketting you could see is black and the planking above it is red. The last thing you could see at many models like the Ajax, Warrior, Minerva and the model SLR0472 I saw at Chatham. So it is not very unusually. 

 

 

[SJSoane]

Thank you Gary, druxey, Mark, Marc and Siggi, this really helps me. It does seem clear now that the small cabins either side of the steering wheel are red, while all of the captain's rooms are white. Funny, you can look at a photo many times and not see something right in front of your eyes, if you were not specifically looking for it.

 

I will have to try some experiments with white paint. Examples I have seen at one extreme look thick and garishly white, while at the other extreme, thin and blotchy like the first coat of paint on plywood without primer. I got some White from Admiralty Paints in England, and will try at some point airbrushing it onto raw wood with various percentages of thinning. And if I can't get a good finish, I will look at using Siggi's Humbrol Matt 65 green.

 

Related to that--the issues never end, do they?--I have to think about how I will construct the various ornaments on the stern which were originally made of ivory. Since ivory is no longer appropriate, are those boxwood painted white as well?

 

I just glued in the uppermost, foremost planks of the channel wales, the last curved outboard planks on the ship. I might be able to retire the steamer permanently, once I finish the spirketting and quickwork at the bows!

 

Best wishes,

 

Mark

 

 

[Siggi52]

Good morning Mark,

 

I'm not sure, but I think that all these ivory parts where in reality not always white. If you look close at the pictures of the Victory, there the wheels are red! But because you could turn ivory better then wood and it looks pretty good, so they leave it white. And all the wooden parts who where'd painted, where in reality may be ocher painted like the figures at the stern. You have to paint wood that is exposed to the sunlight to protect it. 

 

[SJSoane]

Thanks, Siggi, I will have to try painting some white and see how it looks. The ivory sometimes looks too white, and so white paint will look a little more subtle or more soft.

 

Mark

[Mark P]

Good Evening Siggi;

 

Thanks for the pictures above. Is it SLR0472 which has the black spirketting. Looks like a very nice model; and you are right: the spirketting is indeed black.

 

I would still maintain, though, that black spirketting is much rarer than red on models. I have photographed 20 models out of their cases, and all of these have either red or natural wood spirketting, except for the Ajax, which you list above. I have pictures of the Warrior model in the Science Museum, and this also has red spirketting, on both gun-deck and upper deck. Did you see a different Warrior somewhere? 

 

The Minerva I don't have any pictures of, but there are several contemporary models of her in existence, and at least one of them has red spirketting (it was copied for a recent model shown in 'Shipwright 2012', which has red spirketting) Even if one of the other models of Minerva has black spirketting, that would still be much less common than red or natural colour. Ajax, Minerva & Victory black, compared with 20 others red or natural. 

 

All the best,

 

Mark 

 

 

[Mark P]

Good Evening Mark;

 

On the topic of ivory, there is a nut grown in South America, called the Tagua nut, which when worked looks very like ivory. 

 

I have some of them, and they are very hard and dense, although I have not yet carved any to see how it looks. 

 

Might be worth obtaining a few and seeing how they look.

 

All the best,

 

Mark P

[druxey]

Tagua is very limited in the size of carving one can get out of it. Another possible material is mammoth ivory, which is not prohibited. It has a nice pale cream to brownish tone - it won't visually 'jump' like elephant ivory. Of course, if you use machine tools, there's the odour....

[Siggi52]

Hello Mark P,

 

that picture with the black spirketting is the model SLR0472, a 60 gunner ca 1745, 1:60. The pictures of the Ajax I think I have from this web site and are may be from you. NMM
SLR0311 https://collections.rmg.co.uk/collections/objects/66272.html

 

 

 

The Minerva is from the NMM SLR0317 https://collections.rmg.co.uk/collections/objects/66278.html There are a lot more models, but I think you are right, mostly they painted the spirketting red.

 

 

 

 

[shipman]

6 hours ago, druxey said:

Tagua is very limited in the size of carving one can get out of it. Another possible material is mammoth ivory, which is not prohibited. It has a nice pale cream to brownish tone - it won't visually 'jump' like elephant ivory. Of course, if you use machine tools, there's the odour....

Now, where did I leave that Mammoth?

[druxey]

Just follow your nose, Shipman.

[garyshipwright]

Mark If you plan on wanting to try and use Ivory you can legally purchase it from a fellow named David Warther who lives in SugarCreek Ohio. He has a gift shop and makes model ships out of ivory, which he has on display. He was legally able to get it from museum's and believe its called legal antique  ivory.  He has a web site and if you send him a email, you might be able to get some pieces for you Bellona. I purchased some from him in 2001 and it's still waiting for me to carve somthing out of it for Alfred. Of course the price today compared to then, might be just a bit higher. Gary

[Leopard]

It takes a bit of searching on eBay, but you can find vintage/antique ivory piano keys for not too much.  Here's one listing.

Piano keytops range somewhere between 1/8" and 1/16" thick.  It might not work for the bulging portions of the figures, but the large flat plates might be useful for the background relief carvings.

 

I got a free piano a couple of years ago and was very seriously looking into restoring it.  In the process I found out that you can't buy new ivory, but it's perfectly legal to buy existing manufactured goods made from ivory.  You can't import or export it though, the sale has to be local (national).

 

In the end I decided to use maple veneer for the keytops and then eventually just got rid of the thing, since it would have soaked up too much of my time.  It would have been a fun project, but there are many other things that are higher on my list.

[SJSoane]

Thank you, Mark, druxey, Siggi, Shipman, Gary, and Leopard. As usual on this project, I will need to get a selection of materials and see what works best for me. I really want to look closely at a number of contemporary models to see how they did the white decorations. I have always felt like the 2nd Bellona model, recently shown here by Mark and by Siggi, has a pretty strong bright white, maybe too bright for the muted tones of the rest of ship. But maybe that is because the other colors faded. And I do notice that some of the ivory detail is shaded, maybe by dirt, or maybe in the natural color of the material. The mammoth I am not so sure of....😗

 

Of course, I can't get to any of that until I finish the $%&xx channel wales. So here is progress on the upper most strake, now wrapped around the bow. I still have to level some of these surfaces, and refine the lower edge of the wale. But I am making progress.

 

The top two strakes at the bow take a wicked twist, as they wrap from the tumblehome into the reverse curve designed to hold the anchor clear, in a very short distance. And, they go from an upward sheer on the side, to a reverse sheer right at the bow. On the uppermost strake, the upper surface also twists dramatically, to keep it at right angles to the frames at every point.

 

 

 

Artist's tape was my friend here, to fair the upper edge:

 

And here is the progress on the port side. You can see in the first photo below how the sides twist from the tumblehome to the outward projecting corner in the length of just a handful of frames. And you can also see how the small deck at the beakhead cuts horizontally across the uppermost plank, stopping that plank from completing the natural sheer of the sides.

 

There is some discoloration of a few planks at the bow, caused I think by the steaming process and not enough sanding yet to clear it. Or, it may be the oxidized color that all of the wood will go to eventually, since I cut some of these out of blanks that had been sitting around long enough to oxidize. We will see!

 

 

 

 

 

Best wishes,

 

Mark

 

 

 

[druxey]

Lovely work as usual, Mark. I see you are beginning to tackle those cheeks now as well.

[AnobiumPunctatum]

Really nice progress

[Louie da fly]

She's looking beautiful, Mark

[SJSoane]

Thanks, druxey, Christian and Steven. It is slow progress, and encouragement really helps!

 

Big day today. I finished the channel wale on the port side, and only 3 pieces to go on the starboard. Here you can really see how the hull twists from midships to the ends fore an aft, as the tumblehome flows into more vertical surfaces toward the extremities of the hull. I just did not see that staring at the drawings for so many years. It is a masterpiece of design, how everything blends so beautifully. Those guys were good!

 

I remember Remco's Kingfisher postings, with the tag line at the bottom: "Treat each part as if it is a model on its own, you will finish more models in a day than others do in a lifetime."

This kept me going, as each single plank seemed to need as much attention as more interesting parts like deck fixtures. And yet, after all the work, it just joins innumerable other pieces just like it. It is like counting down the miles or kilometers on a long road trip!

 

Mark