LaToulonnaise

[DJPurney]

I am baffled. This is Corel’s La Toulonnaise. The instructions for the shrouds are about as clear as mud.

Figure 35 shows how the shrouds are attached to the ship. The second pair of shrouds attaches to the third and sixth link. Where does the middle shroud go? It is not mentioned in the instructions. If I understand the instructions each side of the lower mast will have what amounts to six shrouds. Or do the pulleys attach to some point inside the bulwarks or to a belaying pin?

Can anyone help clear this up?

Don Purney

[mtaylor]

I'm not familiar with this model as there's no other builds listed for it.   However, looking at the drawings, the first shroud goes from 79 to the masthead, around it and down to the block at 115.  It is tied off at pin 117.   The other two... (unnumberd) would be siezed to the deadeye(another part114) (the middle one) run up, around the masthead and back down and be seized at the last deadeye (another part 114).  I'm assuming those are deadeyes with a single  There are two deadeyes that are unused.  If you look at your figure 35, this shows how the shroud would be seized.  

 

I hope I didn't misunderstand the question and that my answer helps.

[DJPurney]

Corel calls part #114 stretchers, deadeyes are not used on this ship. The stretchers are in turn attached to what Corel calls links, part #79, that apparently do the same job that chain plates would if deadeyes were used. The block, part #115, is attached to another link and the free end of the line goes over the rail then to a belaying pin? Doesn't this give me what amounts to two shrouds?

 

The instructions indicate that the second shroud is set up in an identical way to the first but the pulley is attached to the third link and the other end is attached to a stretcher which is in turn attached to the sixth link. Wouldn't this give me a total of four shrouds? Or does a pulley get attached to one side of the ship and the line get attached to a stretcher on the other side?

[Katoom]

   Consider this just a comment from the peanut gallery as I have no knowledge of this type of shroud layout. However.....

It does appear that on each side of the ship that you have three "doubled" shrouds with one end fixed to a "stretcher", 114, while the other end is fixed to a pair of blocks, 113/115. The sequence of attachments to the hull, starting at the fore end, would be Shroud-1 fixed, Shroud-1 blocks, Shroud-2 blocks, Shroud-2 fixed, Shroud-3 blocks, Shroud-3 fixed. The free ends of the blocks are belayed at rack B or C which I am guessing are port and starboard racks. Presumably this arrangement is used so that the block attachments are "inside" the first and last shroud.

   Another interesting question is about the ratlines that seem to be attached only to the fixed run of the shroud. This sort of makes sense because as the blocks are tightened the ratline would be pulled higher while if the ratline was also attached to the block end it would be pulled lower. But it would be interesting to hear about how this all worked out in practice and see other shroud arrangements like this. Perhaps someone can enlighten us?

[DJPurney]

This makes a lot of sense. If the blocks are secured to the pin rails those lines would be inside the fixed shrouds and not fouling the ratlines. Is the instruction diagram wrong? It is confusing as is the textual instruction. Thanks.

 

I found several internet photos of completed La Toulonnaise models and it does appear that the modelers attached the blocks to the outside of the hull.

 

One fellow substituted turnbuckles for the stretchers.

[mtaylor]

Your best bet may be to follow the other builds.  I can understand having the aft most shroud use a block as often that one side or another would be backed off so the lower yard could be swung into the best postion for the wind.  A tight shroud would stop that.  

[JerseyCity Frankie]

Take my advice and scrap this nonsense. You can save the model, just rig the shrouds like all other shrouds are rigged: with deadeyes. This drawing is pure nonsense. For instance, how is line #114 to be tensioned? Shrouds are TIGHT, they are holding up the masts, you can’t just nail a metal flange with a hook on it to the hull, it could never be adjusted. And if you’re just nailing the end to the hull, why do you need a hook that can NEVER be disengaged? Also look at line #113, why is the hauling end on the lower block? It should be coming off the upper block, rove to advantage. This was drawn by a landlubber who has never seen a real ship before.

[DJPurney]

I too have wondered how some of these lines would be adjusted. I wonder if the stretchers are supposed to be some sort of turnbuckle, just poorly modeled.

As for the rigging of line 113, for the couple that I did before I posted my question I did reverse the line and put the hauling end at the top. How else could it be secured to a belaying pin without chafing on the rail? Either that or as I suggested earlier it should be hooked to an eyebolt in the deck then belayed. Confusing.

[Katoom]

14 hours ago, JerseyCity Frankie said:

Take my advice and scrap this nonsense.

😂😂😂

  This is very likely the best advice but I am not confident enough in my knowledge of any rigging subject to know that something is wrong even if I am suspicious. I am glad that someone else has encouraged you to find an alternate solution for the period/type/locale of this ship.

[Gregory]

I would truly like to see a source for this method of setting up the shrouds..

I have never seen it in any reference, or on any ship/model in the 25 years I have been looking at these things.

I suspect it is totally fictitious, but will recant if shown any contrary evidence..

 

 

 La Toulonnaise, When Googled, does not bring up a reference to any real ship..

[DJPurney]

All I can find is that according to Corel it is taken from a model in the French National Maritime Museum.

[Gregory]

Apparently there is a book with photos of the model.

 

MODELES HISTORIQUES au musée de la marine - TOME 2

 

So, we do have a model..  

 

I would like to see some details...

[DJPurney]

Amazon offers it for $322.00 (shipped from France) or 95 euros straight from the museum. Yikes.

[tkay11]

If you look on the French modelling forums there's plenty of discussions about the rigging and history of La Toulonnaise as a topsail schooner. For example, from the Forum Marine at http://forummarine.forumactif.com/t3369-la-toulonnaise-construite-en-1823:

 

"Lancée à Toulon le 13 août 1823, la TOULONNAISE prit part à la guerre d'Espagne sous les ordre du commandant JOURSIN, stationna à Barcelone puis atteignit Cadix ou elle contribua au canonnage des équipements portuairesEn 1832 à Brest le navire fut soumis à une révision complète. Pour les puristes ce vaisseau aurait été armé de Caronades"

 

Which translates as "Launched on the 13th August 1823, the Toulonnaise took part in the Spanish war under the command of commandant Joursin, stationed in Barcelona, then at Cadiz where she contributed to the bombardment of the port. In 1832 at Brest the ship had a complete re-fit. Purists tell you she would have been armed with carronades."

 

The discussion on La Royale Modélisme says in addition (http://www.laroyale-modelisme.net/t15358-la-toulonnaise-goelette-de-1823-au-1-75-maquette-musee-marine-auto-bce-n-36-2015?highlight=la+toulonnaise):

 

"Elle contribua à la répression de la traite des noirs sur les côtes d’Afrique. Elle participa aux opérations d’Alger en 1825. Ses périples la conduisirent alors  à Cayenne, en Martinique, à Terre- Neuve. En 1832, de retour à Brest, le vaisseau fut soumis à une révision complète. Elle resta  ensuite dans les Antilles. En 1836 elle fit l'objet d'une nouvelle campagne de réparations à Fort de France. Elle croise ensuite durablement dans les eaux des Caraïbes. Enfin elle revint  à Brest en 1843 où elle fut radiée des listes de la flotte le 18 décembre."

 

Which translates as "She contributed to the repression of the trafficking of black people on the shores of Africa. She took part in the operations at Algiers in 1825. Her voyages then took her to Cayenne, in Martinique, at Terre-Neuve. In 1832, on return to Brest, the ship was completely re-vamped. She then stayed for a while in the Antilles. In 1836 she had further repairs at the Fort de France. She then cruised in the Caribbean. Finally she returned to Brest in 1843 where she was de-registered from the lists of the fleet on the 18th December."

 

In all the builds on the French fora the plans from the Musée de la Marine are followed with the deadeyes as shown. They are also shown in other schooners of the time and their recreations.

 

I can't vouch for the validity of these statements, but I hope this helps,

 

Tony

 

Edited May 11, 2019 by tkay11
formatting

[dvm27]

I do have this lovely book. It has beautiful photos of most details of the model but, unfortunately, not this area. However, in the attached photo blown up it does appear to match DJ's illustration. Other photos show a similar arrangement. I cannot discern any shrouds ending in the usual deadeye arrangement. They appear to end in some sort of long iron stave.

Edited May 10, 2019 by dvm27

[Gregory]

Sounds like I need to recant  my speculations as promised in my statements above..

 

Whatever the  reason for rigging the shrouds as shown, it would seem the practice did no show up very often..

[popeye2sea]

Could it be that what we are looking at here is a misrepresentation of several lines leading down to the same area?  I can picture the shrouds being set up with blocks instead of deadeyes, but could the rigging plan designer be confusing fixed runners from other lines, i.e. halyards?  These would lead up inside the shrouds and communicate with tackles on the opposite rail.

 

Just a thought.

 

Regards,

[DJPurney]

The more information we get the confusder I become.

 

Thank you Tony for the history. At least we know it was a real ship.

[dvm27]

I studied all the photos under high magnification. There are many lines converging on the channels but I'm pretty sure each of the shroud lines ends up on a 4-5 ft. tall iron stave. Not sure how the shroud is attached up top but the stave appears to terminate within a shackle on the channel. This shackle, in turn, pierces the channel and ends up as a link which is bolted to the hull. At lease that's my impression from studying the photos. I am not well versed in French ship building though.

[mtaylor]

The French did "interesting" things at times.   The tried different rigging and masting on various ships to see if it improved things.  This might be one of ships that had a test rig on it.

[tkay11]

10 hours ago, dvm27 said:

the stave appears to terminate within a shackle on the channel. This shackle, in turn, pierces the channel and ends up as a link which is bolted to the hull.

That's how the modellers on the French forums/fora interpret it. It's worth having a look. In addition to the ones I have mentioned, there's Marine & Modélisme d'Arsenal at http://5500.forumactif.org/.

 

The pictures tell you most of what you want to know.

 

Tony

[DJPurney]

The only problem with the French forums is they are in French! This presents a problem in the midwestern United States. Trying to recall my high school French language classes I can make out maybe one word in ten and those classes did not cover nautical terms.

 

I think I am going to go down to my workbench and follow the instructions and photos.

 

Thank You to all for your comments and suggestions.

[mtaylor]

Google in Chrome is your friend.  There's nine dots in a square on the upper right hand of all the pages.  One of the items is translate.  If you past the URL of the site into Google, on the results page click on the link you want.  You should get a translate option.  Note that this happens in Chrome.

 

For IE, right click on the page once open, and one of the options is "translate with Bing".   Bing is rather crappy compated to Google Chrome's translate.

 

Firefox currently has translating disabled due to some security issues caused by their latest updates.

[DJPurney]

Thank You.