flying_dutchman2 Posted December 21, 2019 Author #91 Posted December 21, 2019 Ab, I am never ashamed of redoing a model. With building the Utrecht, I got it right after the third try. I was continually having problems with the stern. Seems that is where I always have a problem with. Same with the Boyer. I also appreciate your constructive criticism and you show this with pictures. I think it is safe to say that you are the only modeler on MSW that has built several Fluits and I am in the process of building one. So I rely on you, Jan and a few other Dutch people to give me advice. Marcus Blue Pilot and Baker 2 Quote Current Built: Zeehaen 1639, Dutch Fluit from Dutch explorer Abel J. Tasman Unofficial motto of the VOC: "God is good, but trade is better" Many people believe that Captain J. Cook discovered Australia in 1770. They tend to forget that Dutch mariner Willem Janszoon landed on Australia’s northern coast in 1606. Cook never even sighted the coast of Western Australia).
Ab Hoving Posted December 21, 2019 #92 Posted December 21, 2019 That's the spirit Marcus, when the going gets tough, the tough get going. FriedClams, Baker and Blue Pilot 3 Quote
flying_dutchman2 Posted December 21, 2019 Author #93 Posted December 21, 2019 10 hours ago, amateur said: When you are goung to rip the planking off between frames 5-10, is there any way to ensure that although offf-center, the stern will be vertical? Jan, Possibly, but then I need to start at frame 30 and remove a lot more. The main reason why it is off is that the planking starting from frame 30 going to frame 5 is bent/bowed towards the outside. Don't really know how this happened because before the planking was installed all the frames were nice and even. Marcus Quote Current Built: Zeehaen 1639, Dutch Fluit from Dutch explorer Abel J. Tasman Unofficial motto of the VOC: "God is good, but trade is better" Many people believe that Captain J. Cook discovered Australia in 1770. They tend to forget that Dutch mariner Willem Janszoon landed on Australia’s northern coast in 1606. Cook never even sighted the coast of Western Australia).
Roger Pellett Posted December 22, 2019 #94 Posted December 22, 2019 Am I correct that the oval piece surrounding the rudder port, yellow in the 3D rendering is actually a structural member tying the upper and lower hull sections together? Roger FriedClams 1 Quote
flying_dutchman2 Posted December 22, 2019 Author #95 Posted December 22, 2019 16 minutes ago, Roger Pellett said: Am I correct that the oval piece surrounding the rudder port, yellow in the 3D rendering is actually a structural member tying the upper and lower hull sections together? Roger Roger, Seems to me but Ab would be a better judge of that as he has built several Fluits in his lifetime. Marcus Quote Current Built: Zeehaen 1639, Dutch Fluit from Dutch explorer Abel J. Tasman Unofficial motto of the VOC: "God is good, but trade is better" Many people believe that Captain J. Cook discovered Australia in 1770. They tend to forget that Dutch mariner Willem Janszoon landed on Australia’s northern coast in 1606. Cook never even sighted the coast of Western Australia).
Ab Hoving Posted December 22, 2019 #96 Posted December 22, 2019 8 hours ago, Roger Pellett said: Am I correct that the oval piece surrounding the rudder port, yellow in the 3D rendering is actually a structural member tying the upper and lower hull sections together? Roger No, I would not call it a structural member in a way that it supports or connects other parts, but it sure has more functions than a decorative one only. It covers the cross-cut ends of the planking, and it adds to a more structural look of the situation there. We see that in other places too, for instance in the elaborate stern and quarter gallery decoration of the big ships of the era. Here the large horizontal deviders are being supported by many carved figurines, giving much strength to the whole structure. But without all these decorations the ships are absolutely capable of doing what they were built for. Does that answer your question? mtaylor and FriedClams 2 Quote
Baker Posted December 22, 2019 #97 Posted December 22, 2019 Great work markus. Very interesting build. A question to Ab This plan is included in the book "Risse von schiffen des 16. und 17 jahrhunderts" If I look at the plans of Golden Hind that are also included, they don't look really reliable. Am I right? mtaylor 1 Quote Regards, Patrick Finished : Soleil Royal Heller 1/100 Wasa Billing Boats Bounty Revell 1/110 plastic (semi scratch) Pelican / Golden Hind 1/45 scratch Current build : Mary Rose 1/50 scratch große-jacht / Yacht D'Oro 1/50 Corel Gallery : Revell Bounty Pelican/Golden hind 1/45 scratch Shore leave, non ship models build logs : ADGZ M35 funkwagen 1/72 Einhets Pkw. Kfz.2 and 4 1/72 Autoblinda AB40 1/72 122mm A-19 & 152mm ML-20 & 12.8cm Pak.44 {K8 1/2} 1/72 10.5cm Howitzer 16 on Mark. VI(e) Centurion Mk.1 conversion M29 Weasel 1/72 SAM6 1/72 T26 Finland T26 TN 1/72 Autoprotetto S37 1/72 Opel Blitz buses 1/72 Boxer and MAN trucks 1/72 Hetzer38(t) Starr 1/72 Cleaning the 1/72 military collection Si vis pacem, para bellum
Ab Hoving Posted December 22, 2019 #98 Posted December 22, 2019 Patrick, do yourself a favor and throw that book into the dustbin. There is nothing in it that has any relationship with real Dutch ships. It was published way back in 1969 by a group of German people who had not the faintest idea what Dutch shipbuilding was all about. In those days it might have been worthwhile, but nowadays the best thing I can say about it is that it is hopelessly obsolete. And I am withholding myself. 🙂 Ondras71, Baker, mtaylor and 2 others 5 Quote
Baker Posted December 22, 2019 #99 Posted December 22, 2019 3 hours ago, Ab Hoving said: Patrick, do yourself a favor and throw that book into the dustbin. There is nothing in it that has any relationship with real Dutch ships. It was published way back in 1969 by a group of German people who had not the faintest idea what Dutch shipbuilding was all about. In those days it might have been worthwhile, but nowadays the best thing I can say about it is that it is hopelessly obsolete. And I am withholding myself. 🙂 Ab, Then we have the same opinion about this book mtaylor 1 Quote Regards, Patrick Finished : Soleil Royal Heller 1/100 Wasa Billing Boats Bounty Revell 1/110 plastic (semi scratch) Pelican / Golden Hind 1/45 scratch Current build : Mary Rose 1/50 scratch große-jacht / Yacht D'Oro 1/50 Corel Gallery : Revell Bounty Pelican/Golden hind 1/45 scratch Shore leave, non ship models build logs : ADGZ M35 funkwagen 1/72 Einhets Pkw. Kfz.2 and 4 1/72 Autoblinda AB40 1/72 122mm A-19 & 152mm ML-20 & 12.8cm Pak.44 {K8 1/2} 1/72 10.5cm Howitzer 16 on Mark. VI(e) Centurion Mk.1 conversion M29 Weasel 1/72 SAM6 1/72 T26 Finland T26 TN 1/72 Autoprotetto S37 1/72 Opel Blitz buses 1/72 Boxer and MAN trucks 1/72 Hetzer38(t) Starr 1/72 Cleaning the 1/72 military collection Si vis pacem, para bellum
Roger Pellett Posted December 22, 2019 #100 Posted December 22, 2019 (edited) Ok, so the oval member is what American Shipwrights would call a Fashion Piece as its primary function was to protect the end grain of planking from absorbing moisture? So what actually supports the stern structure other than the topside planking? Roger Edited December 22, 2019 by Roger Pellett FriedClams and mtaylor 2 Quote
Ab Hoving Posted December 22, 2019 #101 Posted December 22, 2019 Not very much. Of course there are vertical timbers connecting the planks and other timbers to which the planking of the taffrail is nailed. There must also have been small knees to connect side and stern and there were a few decks with their clamps and beams. All together they kept each other in place. I don't know if you have seen the pictures of the 'Ghost ship' in the Baltics. The one with the upwards staring knight heads. When the ship hit the seabed at 120 meters the mizzen mast fell backwards, destroying the whole after structure....except the sides. They still stand straight. Blue Pilot, FriedClams, Roger Pellett and 2 others 5 Quote
flying_dutchman2 Posted December 22, 2019 Author #102 Posted December 22, 2019 Patrick, Thanks for the compliment. Marcus Baker and mtaylor 2 Quote Current Built: Zeehaen 1639, Dutch Fluit from Dutch explorer Abel J. Tasman Unofficial motto of the VOC: "God is good, but trade is better" Many people believe that Captain J. Cook discovered Australia in 1770. They tend to forget that Dutch mariner Willem Janszoon landed on Australia’s northern coast in 1606. Cook never even sighted the coast of Western Australia).
flying_dutchman2 Posted December 22, 2019 Author #103 Posted December 22, 2019 4 hours ago, Ab Hoving said: There is nothing in it that has any relationship with real Dutch ships. And I am withholding myself. 🙂 Ab, Would love to hear the rest of your opinions. 😁 Marcus mtaylor 1 Quote Current Built: Zeehaen 1639, Dutch Fluit from Dutch explorer Abel J. Tasman Unofficial motto of the VOC: "God is good, but trade is better" Many people believe that Captain J. Cook discovered Australia in 1770. They tend to forget that Dutch mariner Willem Janszoon landed on Australia’s northern coast in 1606. Cook never even sighted the coast of Western Australia).
flying_dutchman2 Posted December 22, 2019 Author #104 Posted December 22, 2019 Drastic re-do. I have started removing the planking in between frame 5 and 10 on both sides and the side where the overall planking leans too much outward between frames 5,10,15, and 20. I may just go further to frame 25, 30 and 35. Have to do this slowly as I don't want to rip it too fast as I may break something I don't want to. I will probably cut the frames as well and install new ones. It would then be easier to plank. I looked at all the pictures I have from Fluits and on some have there planking stop just above the stem and some show the planking a little further out of the end of the rudder. Marcus Baker, GrandpaPhil, FriedClams and 3 others 6 Quote Current Built: Zeehaen 1639, Dutch Fluit from Dutch explorer Abel J. Tasman Unofficial motto of the VOC: "God is good, but trade is better" Many people believe that Captain J. Cook discovered Australia in 1770. They tend to forget that Dutch mariner Willem Janszoon landed on Australia’s northern coast in 1606. Cook never even sighted the coast of Western Australia).
amateur Posted December 23, 2019 #105 Posted December 23, 2019 You're a brave man! Jan mtaylor 1 Quote
Jean-Pierre Posted December 23, 2019 #106 Posted December 23, 2019 I love this build log because of its subject and I hope this build will succeed. I find this type of ship deserves more attention from the community. There used to be 2 kits of ships of this type, one of them was the Derrflinger but the makers recently went out of business. And then there is the Baleinera Olandese by Sergal, which is based, I think, on a model from the Maritime Museum in Rotterdam. Now, on the site of ship models from Recklinghausen, there is a series of pics from the Zeehaen, and for sure, she is a beautiful ship, and looks better than the two aforementioned models. Let me hope that one of the Dutch modellers who follow this thread would pass on the idea to Kolderstock models!!! And while I speak of Kolderstock, he really should contact Doris, the builder of the Royal Katherine, and ask her to make the moulds for his models. Personnally, I have been building my interpretation of the Sergal model, based on the paintings of Dutch whalers at work. One of the tricks I used to help follow the intricate curves of the hull was to use narrower planks for the second planking. I made a simple jig to cut the 4mm planks in 2, as the 2mm resulting planks were much easier to bend laterally. I wish you to succeed with this build. Landlubber Mike and mtaylor 2 Quote
flying_dutchman2 Posted December 24, 2019 Author #107 Posted December 24, 2019 Jan, It is wood. Redo as many times as you want. Marcus mtaylor and FriedClams 2 Quote Current Built: Zeehaen 1639, Dutch Fluit from Dutch explorer Abel J. Tasman Unofficial motto of the VOC: "God is good, but trade is better" Many people believe that Captain J. Cook discovered Australia in 1770. They tend to forget that Dutch mariner Willem Janszoon landed on Australia’s northern coast in 1606. Cook never even sighted the coast of Western Australia).
Blue Pilot Posted December 24, 2019 #108 Posted December 24, 2019 (edited) I admire your tenacity sir! I take my hat off to you. It makes me scold myself for my inner whining when I consider my rework troubles and repairs I need to do and keep putting off in order to move forward on my POB II. Edited December 24, 2019 by Blue Pilot mtaylor and FriedClams 2 Quote Mark Current Builds: 18th Century Merchantman 1/2 Hull Smuggler Pride of Baltimore II Gallery: Yankee Hero Armed Virginia Sloop Future Builds: Rattlesnake, Fair American
flying_dutchman2 Posted December 24, 2019 Author #109 Posted December 24, 2019 Jean-Pierre, Thanks for the compliment and I Will succeed in building the Zeehaen. I've seen the whaler from Sergal. I think Kolderstok is going to do a Fluit. They just finished the jacht of Willem Barentsz. Marcus mtaylor 1 Quote Current Built: Zeehaen 1639, Dutch Fluit from Dutch explorer Abel J. Tasman Unofficial motto of the VOC: "God is good, but trade is better" Many people believe that Captain J. Cook discovered Australia in 1770. They tend to forget that Dutch mariner Willem Janszoon landed on Australia’s northern coast in 1606. Cook never even sighted the coast of Western Australia).
flying_dutchman2 Posted December 24, 2019 Author #110 Posted December 24, 2019 2 minutes ago, Blue Pilot said: I admire your tenacity sir! I take my hat off to you. As Nike says, Just do it Marcus mtaylor 1 Quote Current Built: Zeehaen 1639, Dutch Fluit from Dutch explorer Abel J. Tasman Unofficial motto of the VOC: "God is good, but trade is better" Many people believe that Captain J. Cook discovered Australia in 1770. They tend to forget that Dutch mariner Willem Janszoon landed on Australia’s northern coast in 1606. Cook never even sighted the coast of Western Australia).
Jean-Pierre Posted December 25, 2019 #111 Posted December 25, 2019 I certainly look forward to your progress, Marcus. Your success in this project will be an outstanding achievement. How did you get the information about Kolderstok preparing a flute ship? Great news indeed! Do you know this gentleman? He surely is filling a gap in the market, and his kits look fantastic, except for the sculptures, for which he himself admits that they can be improved. A great idea for him would be to find an agreement with Doris (see build log Royal Katherine) to either have her make the moulds for his kits, or to allow her to market some aftermarket upgrade kits! Let's dream🙄 You know mtaylor 1 Quote
flying_dutchman2 Posted January 1, 2020 Author #112 Posted January 1, 2020 Did not do anything on the Fluit for about a week. Stared at the area that has to be changed. I measured and remeasured the area over and over. Did make a brass template to make sure that I end up in a point behind the rudder and that the angle of the railings are correct. So today removed not just the planking but also part of the bulkheads (no. 5, 10, 15) on the stern. I still need to remove the planking from bulkhead 20 and 25 and replace with new planking which will cover from bulkhead 25 to 5 for both sides. This area will be sanded flat. Where the bulkheads have been removed I will replace with new pieces of bulkheads, which I need to cut out with the Scroll Saw. I have been working very slow on this. Marcus GrandpaPhil, FriedClams, mtaylor and 3 others 6 Quote Current Built: Zeehaen 1639, Dutch Fluit from Dutch explorer Abel J. Tasman Unofficial motto of the VOC: "God is good, but trade is better" Many people believe that Captain J. Cook discovered Australia in 1770. They tend to forget that Dutch mariner Willem Janszoon landed on Australia’s northern coast in 1606. Cook never even sighted the coast of Western Australia).
Ab Hoving Posted January 2, 2020 #113 Posted January 2, 2020 Helo Marcus, I don't think this method will lead you to the desired result. The lines don't end in a sharp angle. May I suggest a different approach? Screw a firm batten to the back of the sternpost and attach a taffrail-shaped temporary mould to its front side. You can pick the shape from the draught. Then work with flexible battens of 4 x 4 mm following the sheer of the hull. Start them at least from the midship area and attach them to the taffrail mould. Make sure they follow a natural curve. If necessary help them a bit by shaping the battens. If all is set in a satisfactory way take the shape of your top timbers from the inside of the battens. Maybe this clumbsy sketch makes things a bit clearer. FriedClams, GrandpaPhil, Baker and 1 other 4 Quote
flying_dutchman2 Posted January 2, 2020 Author #114 Posted January 2, 2020 Hi Ab, Thank you very much for this suggestion. The sketch is very helpful and I am implementing this. I tried a 4mm by 4mm batten and it isn't that flexible. 1mm by 4mm is better. Let me start working on this template. Marcus mtaylor and FriedClams 2 Quote Current Built: Zeehaen 1639, Dutch Fluit from Dutch explorer Abel J. Tasman Unofficial motto of the VOC: "God is good, but trade is better" Many people believe that Captain J. Cook discovered Australia in 1770. They tend to forget that Dutch mariner Willem Janszoon landed on Australia’s northern coast in 1606. Cook never even sighted the coast of Western Australia).
flying_dutchman2 Posted January 3, 2020 Author #115 Posted January 3, 2020 Here is my batten screwed into the back of the sternpost with a temp. Taffrail-shaped mould. My somewhat stiff but still flexible battens are 2mm by 2mm square dowels of basswood (it is what I have handy) which I will use. Other material I am experimenting to use is 2-ply, 1.5mm thick maple veneer. Marcus GrandpaPhil, Omega1234, Baker and 3 others 6 Quote Current Built: Zeehaen 1639, Dutch Fluit from Dutch explorer Abel J. Tasman Unofficial motto of the VOC: "God is good, but trade is better" Many people believe that Captain J. Cook discovered Australia in 1770. They tend to forget that Dutch mariner Willem Janszoon landed on Australia’s northern coast in 1606. Cook never even sighted the coast of Western Australia).
Ab Hoving Posted January 3, 2020 #116 Posted January 3, 2020 I'm sure this will work Marcus. For battens, use what is available, but don't make them too thin. They have to support your moulds for the top timbers and are not supposed to give way. Ab Kopape, Ondras71 and mtaylor 3 Quote
flying_dutchman2 Posted January 3, 2020 Author #117 Posted January 3, 2020 Ab, By molds, do you mean the bulkheads? Marcus mtaylor 1 Quote Current Built: Zeehaen 1639, Dutch Fluit from Dutch explorer Abel J. Tasman Unofficial motto of the VOC: "God is good, but trade is better" Many people believe that Captain J. Cook discovered Australia in 1770. They tend to forget that Dutch mariner Willem Janszoon landed on Australia’s northern coast in 1606. Cook never even sighted the coast of Western Australia).
Ab Hoving Posted January 4, 2020 #118 Posted January 4, 2020 Call them what you want. You want to complete the missing parts of the top timbers and find their shapes. You can do that by making molds, for instance from card that you fit and adjust to the inside of the flexible battens until you have found the right shape of every missing part. mtaylor and Ondras71 2 Quote
flying_dutchman2 Posted January 7, 2020 Author #119 Posted January 7, 2020 I did a dry run of the shape of the re-do area. I like to get a visual of it all before anything becomes permanent. It looks so much more like a Fluit. This time the temporary planks end up in the middle of the ship compared to last time. Next I will remove all the planks and and use the battens to follow the natural curve of the ship. I created lots of molds from scrap wood and I have also made molds from card. They will be fitted and sanded to shape to fit the missing pieces. Marcus Elijah, GrandpaPhil, mtaylor and 2 others 5 Quote Current Built: Zeehaen 1639, Dutch Fluit from Dutch explorer Abel J. Tasman Unofficial motto of the VOC: "God is good, but trade is better" Many people believe that Captain J. Cook discovered Australia in 1770. They tend to forget that Dutch mariner Willem Janszoon landed on Australia’s northern coast in 1606. Cook never even sighted the coast of Western Australia).
Louie da fly Posted January 8, 2020 #120 Posted January 8, 2020 Very impressive, Marcus. I'm following this design evolution with great interest. I'm not sure I have the courage to pull apart and rebuild to the degree you're doing it. Steven FriedClams and mtaylor 2 Quote It's not really a ship model unless you've bled on it. CURRENT BUILDS Golden City - Ballarat paddlewheeler La Lomellina - Theoretical Reconstruction of a Genoese carrack sunk in 1516 FINISHED Venetian merchant Ship from Basilica of San Marco Australian couta boat RMS Titanic HMVS Cerberus 11th century Byzantine dromon Winchelsea Nef - Late 13th century Mediaeval ship Henry Grace a Dieu - Rebuild of 1:200 model I started in 1967 Mistydeefer - restoration of decor model yacht
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.