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Posted (edited)

"The galley roof panel -of L'Hermione- on the forecastle, was watertight and retained water in order to cool down the chimneys."

 

This is what J.M.Ballu writes in his book "The reconstuction of the  frigate Hermione".

 

Is this true? Were really such galley cooling systems in the 18th century?

Edited by MESSIS

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I've been looking into this issue from my Licorne...  Having said that, I'm not 100% sure, so that's the disclaimer.

 

I would suspect that yes, but not "cooling" as we know it and I'm not finding any references to "water".  If a metal chimney is run up through the deck, it'll scorch the deck.  The references I have only show a metal (for lack of a better word) "ring" or plate around the chimney and mates to the deck.  There was no fabric or leather at this joint.   If I discover anything more, I'll post it.  Frolich's book only shows a metal plate. And Lemineur's book on Hermione shows the galley and plate.   Same for the "74-Gun Ship" from ANCRE.  The drawings are detailed enough to say anything beyond that.

 

Does Ballu show any drawings?  

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Posted (edited)

Thank you @mtaylor, for your response and for the thorough 20190526_080637.thumb.jpg.641044781180cb10eacb698604cbe9e6.jpg research. Here is what Ballu says:

 

He shows a picture of the works on the today's replica, but the text below refers to the past stating, "Its copper chimneys could (not can) be swivelled.... " meaning they could then in 1779? So this system existed also then? Or that concerns only the today's safety arrangements made for the replica to  be able to travel in our days?

Edited by MESSIS

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There are loads of 18th and 19th century drawings of galleys on the site of the Danish Rigsarkivet/Naval Yard. Perhaps one can find something there. I think chimneys did not swivel until tubular ones came into fashion sometime in the 19th century. However, hoods my have been turned by 90 degs.

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Posted (edited)

@wefalckThank you my friend for your very helpful response. I ll have a look at the site you suggested... still I have emailed Mr Ballu, the author of the book, am sure he is the person to give a definitive answer to this. 

Edited by MESSIS

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The use of a "water iron" or "deck iron" has been standard wherever a stovepipe passes through a deck, most likely for as long as stovepipes have been passing through decks. The one pictured above is large and the basin around the flues would have likely been made of copper. On smaller stovepipes, the water iron is simply a cast iron ring fit around the pipe and set in the deck which has a depression around it to hold water. The mass of the iron ring and the water it holds serve to dissipate the heat from the pipe. They do often have to be tended to refresh the water to provide sufficient cooling and are somewhat impractical if the vessel is sailing at any appreciable degree of heel which causes the water to slosh out. They are a standard fitting on wooden vessels with stoves burning solid fuels and still manufactured today.

 

3_inch_bronze_iron.jpg

 

deckironunderside.jpg

 

gruenwoldt_smokehead.jpg

 

16050_2.jpg

 

 

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Posted (edited)

@Bob Cleek And then when I though its was rather impossible to reach to an answer....  Deus ex machina arrived. (The got from the machine arrived).

 

The term was coined from the conventions of Greek tragedy, where a machine is used to bring actors playing gods onto the stage

 

The idea was introduced by Aeschylus and was used often to resolve the conflict and conclude the drama.

 

 

And there was you, as a modern Deus ex machina, giving -actualy- a complete and all around lecture on the subject! 

Thank you Sir. Thank you very much...amazing answer!

 

Christos

 

Ps small additional question...  if I may, why using cooper instead of iron on larger models. Was it because copper exchanges heat with environment faster than iron?Because no way that would have been cheaper.

Edited by MESSIS

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8 hours ago, MESSIS said:

Ps small additional question...  if I may, why using cooper instead of iron on larger models. Was it because copper exchanges heat with environment faster than iron?Because no way that would have been cheaper.

Wait a minute while the stagehands get me back in this harness thing here... :D 

 

Well, this is a guess, really, but the answer would depend upon the period, I'd expect. Back then, the sheet copper would be used for larger stovepipe heat sinks like the one shown on the large vessel above (which is of a type I've never seen before) because copper would have been far easier to work into shape with the corners sealed with lead solder. Welding wasn't really common until WWII with iron plate being welded before then. Until the Bessemer process came along in the second half of the 19th Century, iron and steel were relatively expensive to manufacture. Copper was much less expensive in those times than it is now, relatively speaking. Iron would have been much heavier than copper and prone to rust. More than anything else, the prices of these metals are subject to the laws of supply and demand. While Bessemer's steel-making process dramatically lowered the cost of manufacturing steel from iron, a metal that is easily mined in many places, the cost of copper, a metal more rare than iron, increased far more than iron and steel when electricity came into common use and created a vastly increased new demand for copper, one that has not let up even to the present time.

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Posted (edited)

@Bob Cleek Dear Bob, thank you again for your quick response and very informative comments. 

 

Saying   "iron" I was actually thinking of the stove's cast iron. It seems to me that the stove manufacturer would have used the same material also for the stove's roof (duct panel). So a cast iron panel -not a welded one- appeared to me the natural material to be used. Also Ballu in the above picture, specifies copper, but only for the two chimneys. And that maybe was more appropriate in case the two chimneys could really swivel  according to the wind direction.... the copper would have made chimney swivel lighter (due to its lighter weight than the cast iron).

 

Thank you again for shearing so much on this very interesting issue.

Christos

Edited by MESSIS

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Christos,

 

drawings for galleys you kind find on the database of the Rigsarkivet-Orlogsvaervet (Danish National Archives - Naval Shipyard): https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/da/other/index-creator/40/3353816/17149179 from No. G 4570 (scroll down) on. It is a bit tedious to work with the digital archive, as there is no preview and the drawings take time to load. There are dozens of drawings of galley from the 18th to the 19th century. In some cases also the way of how the stove pipe is led through the deck is indicated. Sometimes it looks a bit like the one HERMIONE, but in other cases it may have been something like a grating around it.

 

The stove pipes would have been either copper or sheet iron, but in both cases rivetted. There was no welding at the time and soldering would have not withstood the temperatures possibly.

 

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27 minutes ago, wefalck said:

Rigsarkivet-Orlogsvaervet (Danish National Archives - Naval Shipyard): https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/da/other/index-creator/40/3353816/17149179 from No. G 4570 (scroll down) on.

... plus also A1284A to D, some of these are 'English'; and all images in the A1205 series.

 

I am convinced this archive has everything, the trick is finding it! I stumbled on these A12** images by accident.

 

Bruce

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Posted (edited)

@wefalck Eberhard thank you... the site its a treasure! The archive is enormous. It seems I have to look it up through a pc.... smart phone is too small and too slow. Although as you just mentioned the picture of Ballu's book is already verified, meaning that such cooling systems did exist  as a facility of the 18th century ship galleys. Still I believe that rather that was a cast iron panel as the galley it self (it was actually the roof of the stove) and not a riveted panel and ofcourse it wasnt welded or solderd. Though the picture I took myself on the replica of Hermione 20170504_143524.thumb.jpg.89b2b2b3f946e1ca3f5c73838a07a1d5.jpg shows a rivetted panel.

 

@bruce d thank you Bruce... yes those could only be found by accident 😊

 

Christos

 

Edited by MESSIS

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There's also the issue of available technology. Was cast iron feasible in the 18th century? Could they get iron hot enough to flow into a mould at that time ?

 

Nup - just checked. Cast iron was available in Western Europe from the 15th century onward. I should have realised, actually. Iron cannon were cast . . . 

 

Steven

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@Louie da fly yes Steven cast iron was there. The galeys and the stoves were made from cast iron earlier than the the 18th century.  The question is the existence of the cooling system it self. And if they had such system... then yes also copper could have been the material used. Welding could not have been an issue it didnt existed. Wefalck (Eberhard) mentioned riveting, which again could have been an option then. Riveting was very early used in metal work.  

 

I tend to believe cast iron was at the time a material  -not cheap and not widely used- but  still known and used in naval architecture and in other fields. 

 

Christos

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Posted (edited)

Now... thats an art work made from J.B.Heron for the Association Hermione Lafayette. Its in the book of Emanuel De Fontainieu....showing actually the ship of 1779 and the basin to be metal or at least the same material as the roof of the stove it self (18) on the gun deck. There is even an additional -and very interesting- detail: the duct looks to be reflected in the basin... this way bringing the viewer the sense of the existence of water!

20190602_073138.jpg

Edited by MESSIS

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Moin/Hello!

 

Interesting question for me, because I'm building the Bucentaure and Redoutable. and I had not thought about it yet

 

Quote

The surface of the hatch is lined with tin-plate underneath, and this lining extend up into the smoke scuttles, which have removable hoods or cowls in iron-sheet
Ringbolts fastened in each corner of the hatch allow it 
to be removed and thrown it into the sea if,...

Source: The Seventy-Four Gun Ship Vol. II

 

The above installation was probably built for some time longer. 
In 1787 a new furnace was tested on the Leopard, a ship of the line. As a result, it came from about 1800 to changes. 
One was a version with two fume-pipes ( contemporary Friedland model, another with a folding grating (contemporary
model Flore), and later with one fume-pipe including watercooling (contemporary model Duquesne)

 

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@Chapman thank you sir. Very interesting! So such systems did exist... and more to that, the one described in Ballu's book concerns the 1779 ship also and not just the replica. Do you agree with this? 

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Yes I found only this installation on the studied plans (including the plan of the sister ship La Concorde) 
and contemporary models from the time.
So I strongly suspect it is the French standard version until about 1800.

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Posted (edited)

@Chapman IOU one! 🍾

 

Thanks and cheers

Christos

 

 

Ps. Could you please, if its convenient, send me a copy/picture of the abstract/plan, for my archive? I would be greatfull

Edited by MESSIS

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Sorry, I do not have digital files, only in books. Boudriot: French Frigates; Gardiner: The First Frigates etc.
But the guys of Gamelabs sure have something.

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On 6/2/2019 at 12:38 AM, MESSIS said:

Now... thats an art work made from J.B.Heron for the Association Hermione Lafayette. Its in the book of Emanuel De Fontainieu....showing actually the ship of 1779 and the basin to be metal or at least the same material as the roof of the stove it self (18) on the gun deck. There is even an additional -and very interesting- detail: the duct looks to be reflected in the basin... this way bringing the viewer the sense of the existence of water!

20190602_073138.jpg

both covers looks like lead 

74 guns 1780; lead under and copper on the top (only half part shown)

9 gaillards (61).jpg

9 gaillards (63).jpg

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@Gaetan Bordeleau thank you for dropping in. Great pictures there! Is it a model you build?

 

You mean the basin (panel) on the main deck is copper and the roof of the stove (on the lower deck) is lead.

 

Christos

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A lead stovetop would tend to flow downward to become part of the decor at stove top  temperatures. Copper, brass, bronze or Iron will not melt from normal stove heat, forget lead.

 

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Posted (edited)

@jud hi. I never spoke about lead. I said its metal. I added it could have been  cast iron, less chances for copper.As the stove's metal parts, which most probably would have been cast iron.The ducts yes those could have been copper.

Edited by MESSIS

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10 hours ago, MESSIS said:

You mean the basin (panel) on the main deck is copper and the roof of the stove (on the lower deck) is lead.

 

Christos

no, look the photos again

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Posted (edited)

@Gaetan BordeleauOh yes! I see now. For the upper case, the copper, yes I think its ok, but for the lower deck, as @Judechar also meant, ead has a melting point at ca. 300° C, which means it doesnt seem to be the proper  material for that area. I believe that maybe thin copper plates would have been more proper, given the fact that copper has a melting point over 1000° C, about as also cast iron has,  of which the stove was made of. Of course lead its better than plane wood... it gives protection to the wood deck in order that it doesnt catch fire. So may be after all, lead was used  at that time. I dont know.

 

Christos

 

Ps is that your build? Its lovely!

Edited by MESSIS

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