Blackening the guns?

[dafi]

For quite a while I am researching for a realistic appearance of the guns of the good ol´days.

 

From the museums we know the green bronze guns or the shiny black painted cast iron guns. But what were the true colors? In early paintings of the 16XX some guns appear greenish, mixed with brownish ones in the same pictures. Could this be an indication of bronze and iron? Later on in the  times of the cast iron guns they appear darker: blackish or anthrazit. 

 

For iron Steel provides us with some nice recipes based around vinegar, soot and oil, creating a oxide layer that protects. Did ever anybody tried this out? What color should be expected? Blackish? Dark brownish?

 

Also, do theses recipes exist too for bronze guns? What color should be expected then?

 

 

Here are some tests for ma little slice

 

On the right as comparison the Humbrol/Revell bronze with a slight touch of brown casein paint. On the left a stronger brown, then some black added and number tree with a greenish touch.

 

What could be the most realistic?

 

XXXXDAn

Edited June 25, 2019 by dafi

[mtaylor]

I'm thinking that look at "museum" ships such as Constitution or Victory but they use all modern methods for the most part and kept super clean.   Perhaps a search of museums where cannon are sitting outside for years though the old saying of "a clean ship is a happy ship" seems to apply and the guns wouldn't have been allowed to get too rusty.  

 

From your pictures, probably one of the middle two for iron.  I somehow can't picture bronze cannon being polished and shiny all the time so there's that. So bronze, probably the one on left.

[Morgan]

I can’t remember where but I recall reading that varnish was mixed with chimney soot to produce a black paint that was applied to the guns and metal work in order to provide a semi-gloss finish, as opposed to the navy board supplied paint which was a dull colour.

 

Gary

[Captain Poison]

First of all you have to decide if we want bronze or iron cannons. In the latter case it will be painted first black and then rubbed with graphite. If you decide to imitate bronze we can use this procedure: we will mix black and gold in equal parts. You can use more black than gold but not vice versa. After the color obtained will be mixed with a third of green, increasing or decreasing the proportion of this color according to the intensity of oxidation that you want to simulate. Finally, with gold and a very dry brush, we will highlight the cannon rings and the parts that had to wear the most. Once the paint is completely dry, it can be gently rubbed with a wadding to polish the surface.

Edited June 26, 2019 by Captain Poison

[dafi]

Actually I am looking for both, brass and cast iron to show the difference in my slices 🙂

 

I have no idea when the marines started to polish everything for the polishing sake. 

 

Steel gives a  choice of about 5 different recipes in one of his books, just can´t find the place right now.

 

Bruzelius gives this short review of Brady´s recipes, http://www.bruzelius.info/Nautica/Seamanship/Fordyce(1837)_p47.html

 

Blacking guns and shot.

Coal-tar alone, or mixed with a little water, is the best thing for Blacking Guns and Shot. It should be laid on quite warm; and if the day be cold, a hot shot may with advantage be put into the Guns to warm the Metal, and make it take the Blacking better; due attention being previously paid to unloading.

Lay the Stuff on as thin as possible, with Paint-brushes; using hot Salamanders or Bolts to keep it warm.

If well laid on, and wiped afterwards with an oil-cloth occasionally, this process will prevent rust, and preserve the good look of the Guns for a length of time, without ever having recourse to washing with water. [p 48]

It is useful to measure and keep a memorandum of the quantity of Blacking required for each of the operations. A Ten-gun Brig requires as follows:-

 

For Blacking	Rigging, ...	12	Gallons
"	Bends, ...	2	"
"	Yards, ...	3	"
"	Guns and Shot, ...	1	"

The time now required for drying the Rigging, &c. may be most advantageously employed in completing Stores, Provisions, and Water.

French recipe for blacking guns.

To one Gallon of Vinegar put ten Ounces of Lampblack, and one Pound and a half of clean-sifted Iron-rust, and mix them well together.

Lay this on the Guns, after a good coat of Black Paint, and rub it occasionally with a soft Oil-cloth.

 

 

Here is Brady in the original

https://books.google.de/books?id=wQxqa5K_zcgC&printsec=frontcover&hl=de&source=gbs_ge_summary_r&cad=0#v=onepage&q&f=false

Page 389 to 393

 

If one looks in the net for life fire, one can find some brass cannons. From the american civil war those are usually quite polished and really shiny ...

 

... or a little bit more dull but still light in color.

 

(OK, this one was wet by rain on top of it)

 

But very interesting is the reproduced gun of the Vasa. When cast still shiny and lightcolored ...

 

... already darker when drilled ...

 

... and nicely brown when fired.

XXXDAn

Edited June 26, 2019 by dafi

[mtaylor]

Given that crews spent much time cleaning and keeping everything "ship shape", "a taunt ship is a happy ship", etc., wouldn't the brass have all been polished also?  Not sure about back then though...  

[Bob Cleek]

On 6/26/2019 at 1:23 PM, mtaylor said:

Given that crews spent much time cleaning and keeping everything "ship shape", "a taunt ship is a happy ship", etc., wouldn't the brass have all been polished also?  Not sure about back then though...  

Brass is always polished in the marine environment. Bronze is not. Brass would generally be limited to light sheet metal work trim aboard ship. This would be things like compass binacles and lamps on period ships. Brass, an alloy of copper and zinc, requires constant polishing or it will quickly tarnish, forming verdigris green oxidation in salt air. Bronze, an alloy of copper and tin and other metals in varying proportions, is a far stronger metal than brass and was used for guns and some cast fittings. It oxidizes slowly, forming a patina with a brown color. "Gunmetal" is an alloy of copper, tin, and zinc, used for casting long guns and oxidizes to form a dark grey patina. Some bronze alloys with higher copper content employed in marine applications will form the familiar copper green patina, such as that sometimes seen on cast bronze statues. The color of the patina on any "yellow metal" piece will vary depending upon the proportion of alloyed metals, exposure to salt air, and weathering and friction on the part (i.e. handling, as seen on coins, etc.) The spectrum of color is quite varied.

 

Iron simply rusts. Cast iron rusts more than does wrought iron. Wrought iron was used for metal fittings fashioned by ship smiths. Early iron-bound guns were made of wrought iron pieces, later supplanted by cast iron guns. Aboard period ships, iron was always painted, generally black, to prevent corrosion. 

 

Yellow metal patina palate:

 

 

 

Gunmetal, showing the effect of "new" surface green oxidation from exposure to salt weather and "mature" grey patina where the green has worn off in places. 

 

 

 

 

Edited June 28, 2019 by Bob Cleek

[dafi]

Some more thoughts about the color and patina on the guns. Something I realised was that the Humbrol bronze was much more reddisch then most of the guns I encountered so far. So the conclusion is not to only look for the patina but also  for the color of the bare metal.

 

First some shots from casts of reproductions

 

 

 

 

Some historic barrels show interesting colorshadings, as to be seen in Wikipedia and also on youtube. Most of them are not reddish but brass like ...

 

 

 

 

 

 

... or almost black with hints of green.

 

 

 

 

Look at this section of a fresh cast. Bare yellow metal inside, patina from the cast on the outside. 

 

 

 

 

Only the reproduction of the barral of the Vasa appears to have a reddish touch, even though after the cast the appearance was still yellowish.

 

 

 

 

 

Also a gun from soleil Royale shows more reddish material (Thanks to Michel Saunier)

 

 

 

The guns from Victory 1737 make believe a reddish color, but could be nothing than the patina.

 

 

 

So I played with the basic color

 

 

 

Still can´t decide upon  94 "Gold" end 92 the more reddish"Brass", The officiel "Bronze" 95 appears too reddish even for Vasa or Soleil.

 

Any of the savants knowing more about the metallurgy of those times? What was the cast at Vasa's time made off? What at 1760 in England? And what like in 1860 in America? What does that mean about the basic color?

 

Still looking for original bronze barrels from before 1780 with polished sides.

XXXDAn

[druxey]

Please see my comments about cannon on your other thread, Dafi.