Bluenose by Peter Cane - 1:24 scale - RADIO - schooner

[lmagna]

Hello Pete

Sorry to see you completely abandoning your build. 

Before you throw all of your hard work into the bin could I make a couple of comments?

 

Your overly solid hull work that you have accomplished so far would make a very nice mold when finished out that you could use to cast a really light fiberglass one piece hull. There is no need to use it as the actual hull for the finished boat.

 

What Keith and others say about cubed hull, (Length, width, depth) and squared sail area, (Height and width) are very true and you seem to understand that in all probability you will need to "cheat" with as much of the weight as possible being placed into a bulb below the true keel. In addition I would like to add that the further down below the waterline this weight is the more stable and the less weight you will need. Of course the longer the keel is in depth the more drag you will have as a rule. This is where you would have to try a design that has as little drag as possible. The things in your favor in this is that the materials available to you are very strong for their needed dimensions and can be made much thinner than on a real ship. Also be aware that you do not want to make the ship too "stiff" either, while still remembering that the winds you will probably be sailing in will not be scale some of the times.

 

Scale sailing ships, both square rigged and fore-and-aft rigged HAVE been done and in many cases, other than being MUCH faster than expected are fairly good sailing ships even though not as good as "Model" ships designed without the need of scale. One kit that comes to mind that has been done over and over again over a number of years is the old Sterling Emma C. Berry. This is the older 50 something inch Schooner rigged version and was designed from the beginning as an RC sailing model. I have seen Two of them sail over the years and they are spectacular to watch and always draw a crowd even when other model sailboats are present.

 

 

If you did decide to start over with a proven design you might look at the old Emma C. Berry. I have no idea where you may find one as they are long out of production, but possibly you could find a set of plans and scratch build. You have already shown that you have the skills for this.

 

Good luck in what ever way you decide to go.

Edited October 19, 2019 by lmagna

[lmagna]

It looks like the Mystic Seaport Sloop rigged Emma C. Berry is also capable of being made into an RC sailing model.

 

But this may be what you may have in mind as well

 

 

 

Edited October 19, 2019 by lmagna

[mtaylor]

I'm sorry to see this go.  Lou had a good idea that's very doable.  But sometimes, starting over is best as we apply what we've learned.   I hope you'll do a log for Emma.

[CapnMac82]

Ah yes, the old demon:  "Water does not scale."

 

Please do take the advice above, you were well on your way to an excellent "plug" mould for the hull. 

 

This can seem backwards until you wrap your head around it.  You make up a plug, which represents the interior contour of the hull.  You  can use all manner of material to build that up as long as the seams are pretty tights.  It gets slathered in a release agent, than you lay up resin and fibreglass cloth over the plug.  Repeat resin and cloth as needed to get a solid hull form.  Do remember to mark off index lines o nthe plug, so you can transfer things like waterlines and centerlines back.

 

Note that you already have some ready-made forms to gin up interior bulkheads to isolate batteries, radio receivers and the like..  The project is in the realm of the possible, it just might warrant bulding a smaller project first, to get some of the details sorted.

[Peter Cane]

Thank you all for your reassuring comments all of which are taken on board.

My son (48 ) is mad keen to see it sail and wants to see it finished.

I have learnt a heck of a lot just building the two little Brando footys on another thread alongside another build " Emma" a hard chine rc designed one metre length schooner which I will start a new thread on.

I have had many arguements with son trying to explain to him all that you have written above and more.

But he is not having any of it and is convinced it will sail.

I think NOT .....because it is already 10 kg in weight.

More importantly, the way it is built with 13mm thick marine ply bulkheads will surely render it almost a submarine by the time its finished.

Son did hit me with the idea of turning it into a plug and make a fibre glass hull.

We have discussed this and yes it will be possible but clearly a false keel will be a must, I would have to work out somehow where the C of G is.

Also as stated above, the masts would have to be shorter by a considerable amount.

So in the end we will not have a scale Bluenose but something pretending to be a scale Bluenose!

I have decided that if he wants to carry on with it then " Go ahead" with all the warts an all and brain aches.

I offered to help but he must take the lead and accept the chance of failure due to lack of knowledge.

I do not even know enough about it myself and I have been a modeller 60 odd years but not too many boats!!

I am happy to continue doing " Emma"'  , to gain more knowledge and to learn more and then maybe help him with Bluenose.

A fibre glass hull would be the only saviour of this project, save using the bulkheads and adding steam shaped ribs somehow fixed to them but removable.

Then to plank it and remove the hull from the mould very similar to how Jond did it.

The hull would end up fractionally larger than planned but to be honest that would not worry me.

Thanks again for all your help and suggestions to save her.

She is not at the dump yet!!!

So we are listening!!!

Pete and son Damian.

 

 

[Yambo]

On 10/19/2019 at 11:16 AM, Peter Cane said:

 

I may open up an Emma thread if there is any interest.

Thanks for your time.

Pete

 

 

 

Hi Pete

That would have been one big Bluenose!

 

I have an Emma sitting in my hallway  :-)

 

She sails well although I only sail her in the sea having no access to a local lake; I'm building another two or 3 this winter for friends and we'll do a bit of racing.

 

 

[Peter Cane]

5 hours ago, Yambo said:

 

Hi Pete

That would have been one big Bluenose!

 

I have an Emma sitting in my hallway  🙂

 

She sails well although I only sail her in the sea having no access to a local lake; I'm building another two or 3 this winter for friends and we'll do a bit of racing.

 

 

That is brilliant and thanks for the input.

If you would like to I will be delighted if you post more Emma stuff on my Emma thread.

The more the merrier.

I was worrying about sailing mine in the sea out here in Oz because of losing it if something goes wrong.

I would not dare to swim out to rescue it as every living thing wants to sting you to death and/ or eat you!!!

Sea snakes, jellyfish and sharks.

Yep...we have the bloody lot here!!!

How did you bend the brass tube to house the winch lines?

I have ordered a mini bending tool.

Then I can flare both ends no problem but then the hole into which it fits will be too big?

Sometimes I can be clever but I am more often rather dim!!!

Pete

[Peter Cane]

For the record.

This is what became of Bluenose.

Brandon and his little helper converted it single handed with no help from me save giving him the tools.

The screw holes were drilled with a hand drill the hard way!.

Pete

[lmagna]

It is good that they found a way to re purpose the Bluenose rather than just tossing her. But at the same time it sad to see her go. Such a noble project.  

[mtaylor]

I find the boys were very ingenious on what they did.  Kudos to them.

[Peter Cane]

On 11/5/2019 at 2:50 PM, mtaylor said:

I find the boys were very ingenious on what they did.  Kudos to them.

Thanks MT.

They leave me standing sometimes.

When we were kids we also wanted " quick results "

Its only as time and experience hits us that we can have an in depth realisation of what it takes and can we give it?

Pete

[Jond]

Pete

 

I just found you again as I wanted to see how you have done.  I have been away from modeling about two months as I have moved to a new house and am in the rebuilding of the shop.   Considering your recent "stop work order", I want to say a few things about my bluenose build 1:24

 

if you run through the first few pages of my log you can see that the frame stage, where you are now, was hung on the ceiling for roughly ten years[ 2002 to 2012  before I picked it up and did the hull.  then it was a few more years before I continued topside.   These pauses where due to work mostly, but the time between phases also gave me time to sort things out and by working on other projects be more prepared to continue.

 

one thing you might consider when you pick her up again is to use the bulkhead frame as molds as I did and as I was taught at the Wooden Boat School [ same as the magazine in Brooklin Maine].    in my early pages you can see all the drilled holes in the plywood bulkheads to promote the Dremel saw to cut them out of the complete and fiberglass reinforced  hull.    then one adds light deck beams and very light deck and top side structures.   the plywood keels section would also be cut down to maybe one inch inboard of the hull to remove more weight.  the coat of fiberglass over the light planking makers he rock solid and removing all the molding makes her light.  as you do it you add cross beams for the deck.

 

the deepest screws that go in sideways to the keel /keelson should be removed and only glue any where you can not get to them from above after planking

 

 

no mater what you do, the frame at the current stage is great nautical ceiling art so please keep her around for a while.

 

best of luck on whatever you decide

 

jon

[Jond]

ps on above

 

simple masking tape on the outside of the molded frames and using drilled toothpicks with glue through planking into the molds allows separation in the removal of the molds.

[Peter Cane]

Jond.

Thanks very much for your expertise but it is too late now.

It has been scrapped.

I did try to contact you on your Bluenose blog but I guess you were busy at work.

I asked if you ever got around to sailing your Bluenose as I am still curious ?

The last I read was that you took it to an exhibition somewhere and just about got it in the car.

I particularly would like to know if she sailed okay as I need an idea of how large the false keel should be?

If she needed one.

I have also in retrospect gained more knowledge about the effects of scaling down a full size vessel even as much as half the size and what compromises one has to make ie smaller masts  larger beam, longer keel.

Did you have to consider any of those comptomises when building your Bluenose?

Pete

 

[Jond]

Pete

 

In my beginning stages of learning to build scaled sailing models, I read somewhere that the rigging needs to be down sized roughly 3/4.  considering the difficulty of managing sails, that are not self tacking, this is partially solved by leaving off some of the sails.  

 

for the keel I prefer the added keel for two reasons.  typically one needs 10-15 pounds of weight and also with a 50 plus inch boat needs the depth of 18 inches.     that means adding some embeded bolts but being able to display the hull out of water in a realistic way.   similarly I add to the rudder a removable piece, because at scale the rudder will not work well. the size for me is to double it.

 

I sailed boats in the 50 inch size and they work well.  they have relationships that are easy to find in the class specifications.  I would suggest AMYA website and the US vintage website for the serious racing folks. Through those sites one can find a class of boat in a similar size and see the area of sails vs length of boat etc.  I would then reduce sail, not shorten mast and boom.   in my Boothbay Harbor One Design build log I shortened the jib for self tacking and then main to  balance the jib.   

 

I fully intended to sail Bluenose but once I got into the detail, I feared seeing here go blub blub and she has stayed dry.    my next venture is a double build of a schooner so I can have fun with detail on one at a smaller scale and build the sailing version more simply.

 

sorry she is scrapped.   maybe someday another go

 

best if luck

 

 

[Deperdussin1910]

Pete, add me to the list of modelers that come to your build thread too late for your first version, 1.0, of the Bluenose.  I would have added to the chorus of "use her as a plug".   But hey, I'm sure the grand kids had fun scrapping her.  At that age, I enjoyed tearing things up! 

 

Now it's on to your Bluenose 2.0!  It's great to read of your Gary Webb Emma build.  Gary's models are a great way to learn.  You'll see that he uses false keels to be able to RC sail these models.  (Psss...check out his build threads on RCGroups Sailboats for more info. https://www.rcgroups.com/sailboats-59/ )

 

All that you learned from Bluenose 1.0 and your Emma builds can be used in your scratch build of Bluenose 2.0!  I and the others above sit ready to help...better late than never😀  Some of my efforts...

 

 

 

Edited November 22, 2019 by Deperdussin1910