Bluenose by bhermann - Model Shipways 2130 - 1:64

[bhermann]

Jan-Willem

 

I'm glad you were able to find a photo of the area - it is nice to get answers to these questions.  I agree with the approach.  If you can't see separate pieces on the original, it doesn't make sense to model them at 1/64 scale!

 

Bob

[7 Provinces]

Hi Bob, 

 

 

If you like I can PM the picture to you.

 

 

In the meanwhile I have another question, this time concerning deadeyes and blocks:

 

As you may have seen in my build log the deadeyes and blocks in my kit are made of brown/tan plastic. These are all 6mm. in size and there are only single and double sheave blocks. So I want to replace them with wooden parts and I am thinking of ordering these from Chuck's Syren Ship Model company or maybe I’ll build them myself.

 

I am thinking of this now, since I want to place the chain plates before painting the hull…

 

 

My problem now is that I do not know which sizes to order or build.

 

As for the deadeyes, on the pictures these seem to be about the size of a man's head, so 25 – 30 cm diameter if I had to guess. At a scale of 1/55 – 1/60 I would probably go with 5 or 6 mm deadeyes. At least this goes for the 40 deadeyes at the chain plates and lanyards. However the kit contains 65 deadeyes and I see on the plan that another 16 are needed for the topmast shrouds (I hope this is the right terminology) and I do not know these are to be the same size since I have no pictures on which I can make these out (or the shrouds for that matter). Maybe this is just another of these “little inaccuracies” of the Billing Boats kit?

 

 

I do not have many good pictures showing the blocks. And from the pictures the sizes are hard to distinguish. I know that there were at least a few fairly large triple sheave blocks, maybe 50 cm large or 8 mm in 1/60 scale. The kit supplies 46 single sheave blocks and 18 double sheave blocks, all 6 mm. According to the MS instructions, there are 3/32” (2.4 mm), 1/8” (3.2 mm), 5/32” (4 mm), 3/16” (4.8 mm) and 1/4” (6.4 mm) blocks in the kit, not specifying whether these are single, double or triple sheave and how many there are of each.

 

 

I wonder if it makes at all sense to use blocks as small as 2.4 mm though. To me this seems very small and on the real Bluenose this would represent a block smaller than 15 cm or 6”.

 

 

I did not find this information anywhere until now. Also in your build log I do not find where the deadeyes and the blocks came from and which size they have. Did you make them yourself? Did you use the ones from the kit? Which sizes do they have? Can you generally categorize the blocks in groups, like a certain size for standing rigging or something alike?

 

 

Thank you very much in advance for any information on this topic!

 

 

Jan-Willem

[bhermann]

Jan-Willem

 

I am using kit-supplied blocks and deadeyes on this build.  The lower deadeyes on the channel are round and there are 20 1/8" and 6 3/32" round deadeyes supplied.  This includes 4 extra of the large size and 2 extra of the small.  The upper deadeyes for each of these pairs isn't round at all, but more triangular in shape, with the point facing down.  They come on the laser cut part sheets.  The rigging plans don't have any deadeyes at the topmast at all.  There is a lanyard that runs between an eyebolt on the cross-tree and an eye spliced in the end of the topmast shroud.

 

I wish I had installed the chainplates before painting.  I also noticed a bit too late that the chainplates are actually let into the hull planking to the point where they are almost flush.  There may be some photos in the log of the L A Dunton that I took at Mystic Seaport a couple of years back that show very similar details on that ship.  (Or they may have been in my more extensive log on MSW1.)  If you want to attempt that detail, I wish you well.  I was afraid I would cut all the way through the planking if I tried it on my build.

 

The kit supplied blocks are:

5 3/32" single 

35 1/8" single

15 5/32" single

12 3/16" single

20 1/4" single

35 1/8" double

15 5/32" double

6 3/16" double

6 1/4" double

6 9/32" triple

 

The MS kit is 1:64 scale so the smallest single block scales to 6" and the largest to 18".  The larger sizes are used to control the booms and gaffs, so are used in rigging the main sheets and the throat and peak halliards.  The smaller sizes are used to rig the various jibs, topsails, and fisherman sails.  If you are not going to set up sails on your model you will not need as many of these.

 

BTW, I'll leave it to you to do the imperial to metric conversion for the various blocks and deadeyes .  If I had it to do over again, I would probably replace the kit blocks with Chucks product.  I have bought some of his rigging rope and like the look and feel of it.  I can't say how well it works just yet, as I haven't had the chance to take it out for a trial yet.  The bowsprit rigging was done a long time ago using the kit-supplied line.

 

If you have specific questions please let me know.  I am no expert on rigging, but I've been looking at these drawings for a few years so havesome familiarity with it.

 

Thanks,

Bob

[7 Provinces]

Hello Bob,

 

Thank you very much for your help. 

Yes I noticed on old Bluenose pictures that the chainplates are flush with the hull, even more so than on the Dunton (I have seen your pictures). In fact, the chainplates on the Bluenose are almost invisible on the pictures.

I also noticed on the Dunton pictures that the middle deadeyes are smaller than the other 4 on a "set". This is consistent with what you write about the MS kit, but I do not find evidence for this on the Bluenose pictures; on the Bluenose pictures all deadeyes seem to have the same size. I have also seen on the pictures that the upper deadeyes are not exactly round but drawn into the shape of a drop. Are you sure about these pointing down? From the pictures I got the feeling that the "points" are facing up to match the "noose" they are in?

To be honest I am a bit surprised by the size of the deadeyes. Looking at the pictures in your build log (page 2) I would guess the chainplates to be about 3/32" wide and the deadeyes around 1/4" and 5/32" respectively. This would also be more or less consistent with my guesstimate from the pictures where the deadeyes seem to be just a little bit bigger than a man's head. But anyway, there you see how hard it is to guess size from a picture unless you have a reference in the same picture 

Something else which caught my attention is that Chuck's blocks as well as yours from the kit have a groove running on both sides, for stropping is my guess. Now I do not find that on the pictures of the Bluenose (the few that I have with blocks on them) nor are your blocks stropped that way. In fact, the Bluenose blocks seem to have had the metal rings/eyes/bolts directly attached (screwed?) onto the block itself, much like you did it. Did you do this for practical reasons or because it was the way it was on the Bluenose? Are you contemplatingfilling or sanding the grooves?

 

Lots of questions and thoughts, I know. My mind seems to be exploding with it  This is my first build and I know next to nothing about rigging. The plans by Billing Boats are no help either. For instance, Billings plans show 6 chainplates, deadeyes, etc. at the main mast  Just trying piece by piece to find out what is realistic and what is not.

 

Thanks again for your valuable input!

 

Jan-Willem

Edited September 24, 2014 by 7 Provinces

[bhermann]

Jan-Willem

 

First, thanks for calling me out on the direction of the upper deadeyes, they do indeed point up.  About deadeye size, take a look at this photo:

 

http://novascotia.ca/archives/virtual/bluenose/archives.asp?ID=88&Language=

 

If you zoom all the way in and look at the left side, starting from aft there are three large-size deadeyes, then a smaller one partial hidden by a rope coil, then a fourth large deadeye at the edge of the photo.  The numbers are consistent with the MS kit, although the kit shows two large, the small, then two more large.  That's the way I did it, and I don't think it is going to change now   The setup of deadeyes is the same at the fore and main masts.  4 large for the mast shrouds and one small for the topmast shroud.  I took a caliper to the deadeyes and the sizes you calculated are accurate - so much for trusting the parts list!

 

About the blocks, I think they are a generic item MS supplies for all periods of ships, and the grooves are there for the rope stropping that was done in days of yore.  Bluenose strops are metal and I believe they are laid flush into the blocks.  I installed the first few on deck without thinking about it too much, other than that the stropping was invisible in photos so I just drilled a small hole and glued my hand-made hooks into it.  On later blocks I have spent some time filing the shoulders down a bit so the don't look so "blocky".  I haven't done anything with the groove on what is already installed and probably won't on the rest, either.

 

Thanks,

Bob

[7 Provinces]

Bob, you're amazing. 

I had a look at the photo and see what you mean: the deadeye behind the rope definitely is smaller. Actually I did look at this photo before (in fact I downloaded and printed them all on A4 size  ) but I missed the small deadeye because you cannot zoom in that far on pictures which you downloaded (the downloads are of a lesser quality). Also I looked at another picture (http://novascotia.ca/archives/virtual/Bluenose/archives.asp?ID=197) which shows two deadeyes of the same size. Seeing the four deadeyes on the picture you mentioned and the two on the other picture I concluded that they are all the same size. Of course I must have missed the chainplate underneath the small deadeye... I have seen these pictures so often now that I start to miss details 

 

Thanks for taking the effort to measure the size of the deadeyes. I am relieved that I can now look for these sizes (which I prefer) instead of the really small ones. For the upper deadeyes I am thinking of "enhancing" normal deadeyes with a little triangular piece of wood. This seems to be the easiest method to me, especially when they are not that small 

Did you blacken the chainplates or did you pain them (the part which is not covered by the paint on the hull)?

 

Thanks!

Jan-Willem

[bhermann]

Jan-Willem

 

Actually, I did both to the chainplates.  I have tried blackening without much success at various point during the build.  The best I've done is a brownish coloring that doesn't completely rub off.  I find that doing the blackening first seems to make the paint adhere better when I apply it over the blackened brass.  I suspect that is because the blackening agent etches the surface of the object, sort of like what an etch primer would do.

 

Looking at the photo in the link, and at the others in that Marine Survey section of the archive, I think the top masts may have been unshipped when the photos were taken.  I was unable to clearly see a topmast shroud (which is what that smaller deadeye is for) in any of them.  I would have expected to see it somewhere in the photo you linked if the fore topmast was indeed up there.

 

Adding a little triangular extension to a deadeye sounds like a reasonable approach - and it would save you the pain of having to drill three small holes at just the right orientation in a small piece of wood!  I'll be curious to see what you come up with.

 

Bob

[7 Provinces]

Bob, that is an interesting idea which I did not think of: the top masts being unshipped. Since I have no nautical knowledge whatsoever (but always interested to learn  ) I could not have though of this possibility. However, when this would be the case, then I would expect to see the deadeye anyway or at least the chainplate. I guess they would not remove the chainplate, close the hole in the rail with putty and redo the paint just because of unshipping the top masts would they?

Anyway, since I will be trying to build the Bluenose with full rigging and sails this will not really be an issue.

 

I think I will try blackening as well but I have never done this and I do not even know where to get the stuff to do it with where I live. Seems to be not the healthiest stuff as well  . Well first I'll need to do the deck and get the deadeyes... I'll keep you posted!

[7 Provinces]

Hi Bob,

 

I have yet another question: I have decided that I do not only want to get myself some decent deadeyes and blocks, but I also want to replace the rope.

In the Billing Boats kit there are three spools of rope of unknown lenght. There is no specification of thickness so I hat to measure with the caliper and therefore the thickness is an "educated guess".

There is one spool with 0.25mm (0.01") white rope, one with 0.5mm (0.02") tan rope and one with 0.75mm (0.03") tan rope of a slightly different hue.

Now I saw in the Model Shipways manual (unfortunately I do not have plans, only the manual) that the kit supplies following line diameters: 0.009", 0.017" and 0.03". Unfortunately the manual does not mention which diameter goes with which color. It also mentions that on the plans more different diameters are mentioned, but can be substituted with these 3.

I really like the looks of the rope which Chuck sells. He sells his rope at different diameters than the lines supplied in the MS kit though. This is not a problem on itself, but I lack the information based upon which I can decide which rope to buy. I was thinking of getting 0.008", 0.012", 0.018" and 0.025". Would that make sense? Or is the 0.008" or the 0.012" superfluous? I think it depends what it is used for and that is the information which I am missing 

 

Could you please help me out here?

 

Much appreciated!

 

Jan-Willem

[bhermann]

Jan-Willem

 

Sorry but I have been away from the board for a few days and will be at less than full capacity for the next week or so. I recently placed an order with Chuck to replace the kit rope supplied by MS. I figured out what to order by going through the plans line by line and measuring length. I think I allowed for twice the measured length for each thickness and kept the information in a spreadsheet. When I am in a position to get my hands on the order data, I will send it along in a PM (I don't think spreadsheets are allowed as attachments to logs). I don't think I went as small as the .008, but there may have been another diameter in there as well.

 

The information I captured was for both standing and running rigging. You will have to decide color you want for the standing - I went with black assuming the standing rigging was mostly wire.

 

Bob

[bhermann]

Jan-Willem

 

Here is a list of what I ordered from Chuck.  I was unable to dig up where I figured out my quantities - it may just have been a SWAG on my part.  I haven't started any rigging yet, so cannot claim any accuracy to what I ordered - we'll see what I run out of when I get around to the rigging.  I went with tan for the running rigging and black for the standing rigging, mostly because that is what I have put on models forever.

 

I hope the information is helpful to you.

 

Bob

 

 

 

008 (.20mm) Black Rigging Line - 20' per package - Linen/Cotton Blend
Quantity: 1

.012 (.30mm) Black Rigging Line - 20' per package - Linen/Cotton Blend
Quantity: 2

.018 (.45mm) Black Rigging Line - 20' per package - Linen/Cotton blend
Quantity: 2

.008 (.20mm) Tan Rigging Line - 20' per package - Cotton/Linen Blend
Quantity: 2

.012 (.30mm) Tan Rigging Line - 20' per package - Cotton/Linen Blend
Quantity: 2

.018 (.45mm) Tan Rigging Line - 20' per package - Cotton/Linen Blend
Quantity: 2

.025 (.63mm) Tan Rigging Line - 20' per package - Linen/Cotton Blend
Quantity: 1

 

[Perls]

Hi Bob,

 

I've read through your build log on the Bluenose a few times now and I think your work is great.

 

Right now, I'm starting to do the gaffs, booms, mast masts on my Smuggler and I can only aspire to the level of work you've done on the Bluenose. As a matter of fact, I've sort of decided to concentrate on schooners going forward and recently purchased the MS Bluenose as my next build. My thinking was that I love schooners, I can leverage what I've learned on the Smuggler, do a POB build, and learn sails.

 

Anyway, I plan on using your build as a practicum (royalties coming in due course! ). Again I appreciate the work you've done and that you've chosen to share it.

 

Best,

Steve

 

ps. I see that you live in CT. I'm in New Canaan and grew up in Glastonbury. S.

Edited October 10, 2014 by Perls

[bhermann]

Thanks Steve for the kind words.  I am always happy to hear that the log is useful to people - that's one of the reasons I do it. I'll send you info about my unnumbered Swiss account for the royalty deposits

 

I have to agree there is something special about the schooners - they have a certain feel that is hard to put into words, but it takes my breath away to see them out on the water, or when I get the rare chance to actually sail on one.

 

Interesting, I grew up in Glastonbury too, back when it was a rural farming community/Hartford suburb mix.  Small world!

 

Bob

[7 Provinces]

Hi Bob,

 

just to say that yes, your information about the lines/ropes is very helpful and I thank you very much for taking the effort.

 

Jan-Willem

[mrcc]

Hi Bob,

 

I have been quietly following your build log. Wonderful, wonderful details, especially with respect to your instructions and perspectives on the various challenges to your MS kit. Thank-you!

 

Certainly lots of practical information for my Billing kit and log.

 

PS Do you mind PMing me your spreadsheet of all the small deck fittings and deadeyes as it is hard for me to keep up the details and with the Billing kit, there is very little information, and I always strive to add the little "extras" that make a model truly great. 

 

Cheers, Julian

Edited November 7, 2014 by mrcc

[bhermann]

Julian -

 

Thanks for the kind words.  I am glad that sharing my trials and processes is useful to others.  I will be happy to send along a copy of the spreadsheet and I have PMed you concerning that.

 

Thanks,

Bob

[Dimitris71]

Hello Bob , after a long absence from the MSW due to workload, just caught your progress to Bluenose. This is fantastic work that you made . She is beautiful!! Keep up!!

 

Cheers

Dimitris

[bhermann]

Thanks, Dimitris.  I do hope to get back to work on her in the new year!

 

Bob

[bhermann]

While responding to a PM, I visited the Nova Scotia archive web page to check on a couple of things... and found that it had moved.  It has been a great resource for me when working the little details, so I thought I'd put the new link in here:

 

https://novascotia.ca/archives/bluenose/

 

I know it has been a long time since I've done anything on this build, but life (and other hobbies) have been taking up much of my time over the last few years.  On the plus side, I am wrapping up three years as chair of the Board of Deacons at my church at the end of May, and am hoping that will give me some time to get this going again in earnest.  Of course there is always the granddaughter to spoil, astrophotography to work on, etc., etc., etc.

 

Thanks for your patience with me, and for sharing all your experiences in this hobby - MSW is s a great place to help keep the interest alive!

 

Bob

[bhermann]

I'm not dead yet!  I'm not making any progress on Bluenose at the moment, but she is still sitting next to me waiting for some attention.  In part I am doing my over-analyzing thing about how to do the sails, and freezing in place while that goes on.  I am also rekindling my life-long dream of doing astrophotography (if you think wooden ship modelling is a money sucker, try AP sometime) and am at a point there that requires a lot of energy to get better.

 

I still stop in to MSW on an almost daily basis and am keeping an eye on you all.  EdT's Young America continues to amaze, and I am enjoying watching Chuck build up Syren Ship Modelling, and many of the other activities here. When I get off the dime and decide to move forward with old Blue, I will start posting in the log again.

 

Bob

[Nirvana]

Bob,

It has been a long time, did you do any changes to the rigging?

I ordered the blocks and rigging lines from Chuck already from the start.

[bhermann]

Hi Per - I have Chucks rope ready to go.  As of now only the bowsprit is rigged.  I made up my own turnbuckles for this from the kit supplied brass strip and wire.  I used speaker wire for the footropes as I couldn't see how to get thread to drape properly.,  I did use thread for the stirrups.  Other than that, it's all standard stuff.

 

I'll be getting back to Bluenose at some point - ATM I am working out some bothersome details on my astrophotography setup and am not spending any time in the shipyard.

 

Bob

[bhermann]

Still out here, but no work on the Bluenose.  I have taken on a different ship-related project for now.  Following in Caroline's (VulcanBomber) footsteps, I am working on a counted cross stitch image of a ship sailing past some rocks.  I have been at it since January, and am less than 1/2 way through.

 

Bluenose continues to wait patiently, sitting next to me on  the desk, being admired and thought about fairly regularly...

 

Bob

[bhermann]

An update - not new build stuff, rather this is about when I may resume.  I am close to setting a retirement date at the end of 2021/beginning of 2022.  Since I originally took up model ship building as something I would be able to do after the working days were done, it seems fitting that resumption be tied to that event. 

 

Bluenose is still sitting quietly on the workbench (in her Lands End cradle), patiently awaiting my attention.  The time is coming!

 

Bob

[7 Provinces]

I hear you Bob. Unfortunately I have also had to learn that one has to think in years here, rather than days or weeks...

Since we built our house 3 years ago my Bluenose is also patiently awaiting better times...

It is what it is. I look forward to seeing more of your work, knowing that this seems far away now but will be there before I know it. 😉

[bhermann]

Late breaking news - I am now in the process of setting up for retirement (yay!) and expect to be back in the shipyard soon.  It has been way too long since I have put any time in on Bluenose.  I did blow some of the heavier dust off the other day.  It'll be good to be back at it!

 

Bob

[Nirvana]

Bob, 

Good to hear you will be back at the yard.

Good luck setting up your retirement. 

[DBorgens]

Bob,

Welcome back, it’s been a while. I’ll stay tuned.

 

Dave B

[jamcdonel]

Bob, 

I am also building the 1:64 Bluenose, and your log has helped me solve a mystery! I was a member back on MSW 1.0, and remember following your build. I couldn’t for the life of me remember my old screen name, but I just read your log here on 2.0 and found a post from myself back in 2013! Evidently I haven’t been gone as long as I thought. I was “McDaddy” back in those days.

 

I am getting ready to start the metalwork, and have always admired yours. What is your set up? What kind of solder do you use? Do you use more than one temperature? How about torch?

 

following ....again.

 

Jim

[bhermann]

On 4/3/2020 at 2:18 PM, jamcdonel said:

Bob, 

I am also building the 1:64 Bluenose, and your log has helped me solve a mystery! I was a member back on MSW 1.0, and remember following your build. I couldn’t for the life of me remember my old screen name, but I just read your log here on 2.0 and found a post from myself back in 2013! Evidently I haven’t been gone as long as I thought. I was “McDaddy” back in those days.

 

I am getting ready to start the metalwork, and have always admired yours. What is your set up? What kind of solder do you use? Do you use more than one temperature? How about torch?

 

following ....again.

 

Jim

Welcome aboard, Jim (or should I say McDaddy?).  I'm glad I could help out with your mystery.

 

I learned my soldering from a tutorial Russ had posted on the MSW 1.0 site.  I use a silver solder paste, which I can't read the label on any more, as it has faded a lot over the past 10 years or so.  Since I only have the one tube, I can safely say all my soldering has been done at one temperature.  I have been able to solder as many as four lugs on a single band on the bowsprit, so there has been no need for multiple temperatures.  I use a Bernzomatic butane micro torch which I think I picked up at Home Depot.  I tried several pencil grip torches before settling on the micro torch.  I had a terrible time refilling them, this one has worked well for me.  Here is a link to the torch (or a newer version of my torch) on Amazon.

 

https://www.amazon.com/Bernz-Matic-ST2200T-Micro-Butane/dp/B000PS9TQI?ref_=fsclp_pl_dp_2

 

I will poke around and see if the Russ tutorial made it to MSW 2.0.  One of the main things to remember is that the solder flows toward the heat, not away from it.  Once I figured that out I got much better at getting good connections on the first try.

 

Bob