To add sails or not? What is your preference?

[Bill97]

Rob I am just not having any luck finding what to click on to see your Great Republic. You said look at your sig line at the bottom of any of your comments. The photo is a screen shot of the bottom of one of your comments. What should I be seeing?

[rwiederrich]

Interesting...I don't get it..you should be able to see just below every post I make a line then the list of current builds I'm involved with.

 

Here...just go to the scratch built model thread and press page #7.  The Great Republic thread is located there, several lines down.  press that and then follow the previous directions.

 

Weird......

[Bill97]

Thanks Rob. I am really anxious to see it. 
 

Bill

[rwiederrich]

1 minute ago, Bill97 said:

Thanks Rob. I am really anxious to see it. 
 

Bill

I hope you can find it and it helps.....

 

Rob

[VTHokiEE]

10 hours ago, Bill97 said:

Rob I am just not having any luck finding what to click on to see your Great Republic. You said look at your sig line at the bottom of any of your comments.

Signatures aren’t visible when you’re on the mobile version of the page (even if I request the desktop page on my phone I don’t see them).

[Bill97]

Rob I found it!  I bookmarked it and plan to read all the way through it. I am very early in my Cutty Sark build so it will be a while before I am ready to make my finished sails. Plenty of time to practice. 
 

Another question for you and gang, when you plan to add sails I know the yards are supposed to be turned (not sure what the correct term is) at an angle, not perpendicular to the ship. Is that amount just personal preference, or do you have a set amount you use?  

[Bill97]

Thanks VTHookie, that explains the confusion. 
 

Bill

[Bill97]

Rob I read through page 7 of your Great Republic build. This initial part covered your hull build and ingenious copper platings. Simply incredible!  I don’t know if I am worthy to even discuss model ship building with you!  Probably should just throw my models in the trash and take up knitting or macrame 😊.  Your skills and inventiveness are very impressive! Looking so forward to reading more of the GR build. Going to spend a little time on my Cutty Sark today, which until now I thought was kind of intense delicate work, much like my recent Construction build. But now after reading about your build this just might be child’s play!  😀

Again great job. I am sure you are proud of it, and all your models. 

[rwiederrich]

4 hours ago, Bill97 said:

Another question for you and gang, when you plan to add sails I know the yards are supposed to be turned (not sure what the correct term is) at an angle, not perpendicular to the ship. Is that amount just personal preference, or do you have a set amount you use?  

Good question.  Several things I take into consideration.

First:.... The angle of the sails is directly attributed to the direction of the wind and the *tack* of the vessel.   Most paintings you see of sailing ships, the sails appear full on...meaning the wind is leeward, or coming in from the side of the vessel.  When the vessel is running with the wind, the sails will be perpendicular....some paintings of ships looking toward their bow,,,shows this inclination.

Second:.... In many cases, when you reef your yards over to port or starboard..you need to make sure the yards do not impede or press up against the backstays or the shrouds. This can become quite evident on the shrouds of the tops. or the topmast shrouds.

I chose a 20deg to starboard reef for the Great Republic,,,,but there is nothing that dictates the degree...but the desire and privy of the modeler.   Also if you set the cant/reef to an extreme, you could adequately hide the rigging details of the sails and the yards behind the sails......IF... you do not allow viewing from both sides of the vessel.  My Great Republic is in its case against the wall...preventing one to view clearly from the starboard side.  But because I rigged my yards with only a 20deg...Cant/reef...the viewer can see all the detail of the internal rigging  AND can see all the detail of the sail face rigging as well....without making the vessel look like it is running with the wind...or having the wind directly behind the vessel.  Which is a rare thing indeed, under natural conditions.

 

Hope this helps.

 

Rob

[rwiederrich]

2 hours ago, Bill97 said:

Rob I read through page 7 of your Great Republic build. This initial part covered your hull build and ingenious copper platings. Simply incredible!  I don’t know if I am worthy to even discuss model ship building with you!  Probably should just throw my models in the trash and take up knitting or macrame 😊.  Your skills and inventiveness are very impressive! Looking so forward to reading more of the GR build. Going to spend a little time on my Cutty Sark today, which until now I thought was kind of intense delicate work, much like my recent Construction build. But now after reading about your build this just might be child’s play!  😀

Again great job. I am sure you are proud of it, and all your models. 

Oh goodness...don't throw anything away.  One doesn't become adequately proficient if one gives up.  I've been building sailing ships(Mostly clippers) for over 50 years, so I wouldn't even make sucha comparison.  But if you will, permit me to be of assistance, if I may.  Out of necessity, I have developed many means to accommodate my goals...and much of that stems from a history of machining and fabrication experience.  My father taught me so long ago, that if anyone can make it(no matter what it is), you can make it.  So, instead of buying what I need, I either re-machine someone else's design to suit my needs or I simply make it myself.  

Your Constitution build is very good and you are accomplished yourself.  Don't belittle that...but add to it and always continue to further your skill set and imagination...by trying new things...new techniques....new processes.  You'll only gain priceless experience...to apply on the next project.

 

Rob

[Bill97]

Thanks Rob. Your 20 degree recommendation and reasoning sounds perfect. Per chance I wanted to go back and add furled, handmade sails to my Constitution it would look OK and be accurate that the yards are perpendicular?

 

 

[Bill97]

Thanks for your compliment Rob. I was kidding when I said I should just throw my Cutty Sark away. I do thoroughly enjoy building these model ships. I find very enjoyable and therapeutic, maybe. A little glass of KY bourbon, some nice background music, and my ship and I am in heaven. Doubt I will be as accomplished as you, and at 68 I guess I can only get just a little bit better. I really like your idea of experimenting with new things to improve skills. I think my Cutty Sark is coming along nicely with advice acquired from this site. I am honing my skills for my next build, the 1/100 HMS Victory, which I received as a gift and have yet to open. Planning to tackle it starting this winter after giving all I can to the CS. The instructions said to paint the roof of the little deck houses a color, but I noticed I the video of the ship museum shows them all white. So I painted them white. 

[rwiederrich]

Wonderful!

 

First..if you want to add furled sails to the Constitution with her yards as they are...that would be absolutely perfect.

If I may suggest one little item....furled sails area bit more rigorous  to install, and when the yeards are mounted and fully rigged with foot ropes and such...to do so might be more problematic then anything else.   Adding completely set sails would be far easier in this application....IMV

 

One little tidbit...a secret actually,...that I have not divulged, is this......  the furled sails on my Glory of the Seas are not actually paper...as is are the set sails.  Nope...for me to get the creases and folds I required, paper was going to be a tough road to hoe.....nope...I found a medium that could be rolled, crinkled, folded with little fuss and that was....plain ole 2" tan masking tape.

Yep..just cut the correct width, reduce the length, taper out the ends and all was needed was to stick the tape to the yard, roll in the edges....fluff up the center and roll in the back so as not to expose the sticky side...then press and crinkle into form.  Once done, you secure it in place with reef points, tied around the sail and yard.

Then I drew in the panel lines...making sure to follow the accents and curves of the folded material.   Once done....I sprayed on a coat of Testers Dullcoat to knock off the shine and to mimic the shade of paint I had already selected to match when I painted the paper sails.

 

For further security, I played a small coat of white glue along the edge of the sail and the yard to make sure it won't separate.

Yes I know....like I said earlier..try new things, experiment......  the final outcome is quite convincing and melds with the paper sails quite well....you'd never know unless I told you the secret....and now I did. 

 

Your Cutty Sark is wonderful, well executed and very clean.  If I were to suggest anything, it would be to remove those brass chain sections and get some Blackening and blacken the chain first.  It is a small touch that in the end has great benefits.  It lends to greater realism.

 

Your deck looks wonderful by the way.

 

Sweet job for sure.

 

Rob

[Bill97]

Oh no Rob. Based on some photos Bob sent me over on my Cutty Sark build log I removed the chains today and reinstalled them more accurately to the 1912 photo. Had to risk doing some deck damage doing that. Kind of scared to remove them again. Wonder if I might brush them with a little black wash?

[Bill97]

Hey Rob I noticed in some of your post photos, and photos from other builders, that it seems as if you do not attach the yard to the mast until after you attach the sail to it?  Is that correct?  The instructions show attaching the yard to the mast during assembly. If I am correct in what I think your photos show, do you find that better, and I guess possible?

[rwiederrich]

On ‎7‎/‎5‎/‎2020 at 8:20 AM, Bill97 said:

Hey Rob I noticed in some of your post photos, and photos from other builders, that it seems as if you do not attach the yard to the mast until after you attach the sail to it?  Is that correct?  The instructions show attaching the yard to the mast during assembly. If I am correct in what I think your photos show, do you find that better, and I guess possible?

Sorry for the delay.  Yes I added the sail (when I furled the sail) while the yard was off the mast.  However all the billowing paper sails were added after the yard was added to the mast and they were all set to the cant I desired.

 

Rob

[Bill97]

Thanks Rob. As I hone my skills I try to pick up hints and techniques from you guys I consider masters of the craft. I am beginning the mast construction for my Cutty Sark and was going to wait to include the yards at this time if that is what you recommended. Based on your reply, and that I hope to make paper sails following your method, I will go ahead and attach the yards in the up position and at about 20 degrees. 
 

Bill

[Bruma]

Hello everyone! 
Inspired by this wonderful discussion and pushed by the will to put sails on my Cutty Sark, I made a quick test.
This is the fore royal sail. Many details are missing, it is just a test focused on the shape of the sail.
I want billowing sail curved in both directions, vertically and horizontally and I wasn’t able to get the shape right with paper. So I switched to fabric. 
That’s the result:

 

I like the overall shape and the translucency effect (sadly invisible in this picture without back light). 
Unfortunately the texture of the fabric is out of scale e visible at close range. 
Secondly they are still too thick…
I would like to try whit modelspan, but it seems to be impossible to find it, at least here in northern Italy. 

[Edward Bowser]

That's very impressive. More than I could aspire to. I am currently restoring a Billings Cutty Sark I made 35 years ago and am toying with the easier option of adding furled sails made from tissue paper. They would be a 'harbour furl' where the 'sausage' of the sail is pulled up on top of the yard and sits on the jackstays. All you need (I think) is to tie the gaskets onto the jackstay, sit the sail on top and tie it on with the gaskets.

On the subject of the angle of the yards, unless sailing direct downwind, each yard will be braced up a bit further than the one below giving a corkscrew effect. Two reasons 1. the higher you go the more the direction of the apparent wind changes and the extra bracing takes account of that. 2. when sailing as close to the wind as possible, the helmsman needs some warning if he is getting too close to the wind. With the yards progressively braced, the highest sail will stall first giving the opportunity to bear away before the whole mast ( and then the ship) stalls - very dangerous indeed especially in any kind of wind.

One more thought, if you are rigging the sails as if direct down wind, the main is often furled as it is blanketed by the mizzen and itself blankets the fore sail, or at least it is scandalised (i.e one side pulled up

[Bill97]

Rob another question I have, I feel like Luke Skywaker asking the Jedi Master Obi Wan Kenobi, is that it seems you leave the Studding Sail Booms off the yards. Just hang sails on the yards not the extensions. Is that correct?  And if so, is that a preference you have arrived at for specific reasons?  I included them on my recent USS Constitution but left the sails off. On my current Cutty Sark I am going to attempt your paper sail technique, but am curious about the studding sail booms. Have not added them to my yards yet. 

[rwiederrich]

I added stunning sails booms to the Great Republic..just no sails.  My booms *Hung* below the yard were as some are on top of the yard.....both methods were used.

 

Rob

[rwiederrich]

On 7/15/2020 at 2:49 PM, Bruma said:

Hello everyone! 
Inspired by this wonderful discussion and pushed by the will to put sails on my Cutty Sark, I made a quick test.
This is the fore royal sail. Many details are missing, it is just a test focused on the shape of the sail.
I want billowing sail curved in both directions, vertically and horizontally and I wasn’t able to get the shape right with paper. So I switched to fabric. 
That’s the result:

 

I like the overall shape and the translucency effect (sadly invisible in this picture without back light). 
Unfortunately the texture of the fabric is out of scale e visible at close range. 
Secondly they are still too thick…
I would like to try whit modelspan, but it seems to be impossible to find it, at least here in northern Italy. 

 

Yes Bruma..I too tried your method..but still the scale was off for me too.  I did , however devise a press to impress or emboss the lateral stretch into the sails...similar to what you have created with your sails.  The wrinkles and creases caused by the stretching sail to the sheet points is a very convincing effect...but I had to make the call as to what minute detail had to be eliminated to achieved the overall look I wanted  Here is an image of the experiment, the sail is not cut or billowed completely...just the stretching was tested.

 

Rob

[Bill97]

Ok after experimenting with the different sail making techniques, both paper and cloth, I settled on cloth. I drew out and cut paper patterns for each sail on the plastic form including the lines. I found an old cream colored bed sheet and stretched it out tight. Next I drew in long rolls of lines On the sheet with pencil matching the spacing on the patterns. For a bit of simplicity I spaced the lines a bit further apart then the molded forms. Next I drew all the patterns on the sheet matching the paper and cloth lines and included the sail number on a side tab. Then in a time consuming process I hand stitched all the lines within each pattern. After I finished sewing all the lines I cut out each sail. Using a 3 to 1 dilution of water and white glue I painted each sail formed over the plastic molds. When the glue dried I had a perfectly molded sail. I waited 24 hours to make sure sail was solid. I will now come up with a satisfactory color to lightly hit them with my airbrush. I think I will reinforce the bottom corners for rigging before I attach them to the yards. I am happy with them. As a purest I know the stitching is out of scale but I am willing to except that. 

[having-fun]

I am planning to make my own sails for my current build ( Heller Le Solei Royal ) I am thinking of using the paper sail making technique explained in this tread, in regards to making the sail looks like they are being pushed by the wind, I read in another blog were, when the sail was being build, to put in a very thing wire on the edges and cover it up, the wire will make it easy to make the sails because you can bend the wire so they sail look like it is furled.

Is is my intend to try the combination of paper making technique and the wire to see how it works out, once I tried it I will make sure to notify this blog of the results.

Joe

[Edward Bowser]

spent a few minutes folding tissue paper to see what furled sails might look like. I think you could get away with minimal extra rigging - just sheets and leave off the bunt etc lines.....

 

 

 

 

[Bill97]

Finished the sails today. Added all the lines and a little antiquing. Now to start adding the blocks and getting ready to rig them on the ship. 

[Bill97]

Added all the blocks to the yards today and began attaching my hand made sails to the foremast. Left the bottom (fore course) sail off for now. Thinking about maybe a fueled sail at the bottom of each mast. If I go with that idea I will need to remake those 3 sails. Pleased with my first time making my own sails. 

[Bill97]

Now that I have made my own sails for the Cutty Sark and like the looks I am thinking about going back to the USS Constitution I completed earlier this year and adding furled sails. I left the sails off when I built it because I did not like the plastic formed sails that came with the kit. I have reviewed several methods for making furled sails and am considering giving it a try. I am looking for an opinion. Would it look OK to just have furled sails on the mast yards and not do furled jib sails, staysails, spencer, spanker sail?  The process I have researched looks doable for the straight yard sails but more complicated and risky with my rigging for the others. What do you think?  Would you make the sails if just doing the yards or not do it at all?

[Veszett Roka]

On 9/13/2020 at 11:47 PM, Bill97 said:

Now that I have made my own sails for the Cutty Sark and like the looks I am thinking about going back to the USS Constitution I completed earlier this year and adding furled sails. I left the sails off when I built it because I did not like the plastic formed sails that came with the kit. I have reviewed several methods for making furled sails and am considering giving it a try. I am looking for an opinion. Would it look OK to just have furled sails on the mast yards and not do furled jib sails, staysails, spencer, spanker sail?  The process I have researched looks doable for the straight yard sails but more complicated and risky with my rigging for the others. What do you think?  Would you make the sails if just doing the yards or not do it at all?

 

 

Hi Bill,

 

just came to this topic, a bit late to really answer.

I think USS Constitution is good as she is. Today she's moored permanently and no sails were attached to her masts. A few things to consider: if you displays the ship in full sails, the yards were never (or almost never) been parallel, as the sails set to match the wind - they usually sailed 3/4 winds rather than full backtack. However, this could be the situation though, and in this case the gaff sail on the mizzen mast must have been tacked for any side (port or starboard), wouldn't be parallel with the centerline.

So all based on how would you like to depict the ship. The current model is both historically and technically accurate, but if you'd like to set her to full sails and glory, you can do it.

 

Cheers,

Miki.

 

 

[rcweir]

Constitution has been under sail in the no-too-distant past.   There are plenty of pictures on the web of her under sail (on a distinctly non-windy day), soon after leaving a recent overhaul.    I think that they may not have the nerve to do that again.

 

Bob