Clarification would be appreciated

[mikiek]

This is Enterprise 1799. The rope pointed out in the diagram. If I read it correctly it would be siezed to the yard then run down the front side of the sail to the corner then under and back up the back side to the block? Or maybe under the sail into that block at the foot and then back up? Seems like a rope running down the front of a sail could keep it from filling properly.

 

Hope someone can set me straight....

 

[Nirvana]

Mike, when a line has the type of construction line ( ----) that means most of the time it's behind like, a hidden line.
The running yard should be behind the sails, if I am correct.

[mikiek]

Per - there is no indication of how the rope is tied off. I'm guessing a loop siezed around the yard?

[Nirvana]

20 minutes ago, mikiek said:

Per - there is no indication of how the rope is tied off. I'm guessing a loop siezed around the yard?

To me it looks like it is siezed around the yard. Because the sail will be siezed at the yard when not in use.
Hope that make sense.
As I read the diagram, the sequence should be Sieze around the yard, line goes to block in sail, back to yard block then back to deck.

[allanyed]

Mike 

The clue garnet which is what you show has the standing part made fast to the yard with a timber hitch.  As the drawing shows,  the line then runs down the front of the sail, through the clue garnet block and then back up the aft side of the sail to the block which should be seized to the yard a little inboard of the standing part, then down to the bitts.   Keep in mind that for 1799, the tack block was first seized to the clue and then the clue garnet block and sheet block were stropped around the clue of the sail and tack block seizing, not directly to the sail, therefore the tack block will have to be seized to the clue before you can attach this clue garnet block. 

Allan

[mikiek]

Per & Allan - thank you for clearing that up. It's kinda what I thought but it just seems odd to have a rope laying on the front side of the sail. Seems like under a strong wind the ropes might keep the sail from filling completely.

 

Allan - the thing you describe with the tack block. That isn't shown on these plans is it?

[Jaager]

Trying to make sense of the mechanics of this system:
T"gal
23, 24  are the clue?
17, 18  are the sheets?
Top
21, 22  are the clue?
15, 16  are the sheets?
Main
19. 20  are the clue?
the mainsail is heavy enough and prone to awkward folding enough  to need a basket when it is hauled up?
There is no sheet displayed  -  which conflicts with my expectation for symmetry and consistency in a presentation.

 

 

 

 

Whenever I read about the rigging of sails, this comes to mind.

In NIXON IN CHINA - John Adams 1987   there is this line:  “The rats begin to chew the sheets”.  When I first heard it,  I guessed it would go over the heads of most,  who must wonder why Nixon cares about bedding, and is singing about it in an opera. 

Confirmed by this quote from a review:

{ I’m sure there’s an explanation for why Nixon says, about his plane trip, “The rats begin to chew the sheets,” but it just doesn’t work, doesn’t play, in the way that similar lines do in, say, Pelléas et Mélisande. }  

Makes perfect sense,  when you know what a sheet is, and that Nixon ( a Navy vet.) would be concerned with his effort being undermined.  Purposefully throwing his sheets to the wind.

[allanyed]

Mike,  I am not 100% sure on which side of the sail the line runs, but assume (usually a big mistake)  it is correct on the drawing that you posted.  There are a lot of members here that will have more knowledge on that specifically and can confirm or correct.  Are there additional drawings for the rigging of the sails?

 Jaager, I did not look at any other lines before and now that I have  I agree they do not appear to be correct at all.  While this is an American ship, the rigging should not be that different than British Navy ships of that time.

 

On the drawing  posted, the buntlines and blocks are missing on the lower sails. (there would not be any on the topgallants for ships smaller than 1st rates)

The leechlines and blocks are missing (On British ships, they would have run on the fore side up to 1773 the aft from 1773 to 1815, and on the aft side from 1815. ) No leechlines would be carried on the topgallants.

Bowlines and bridles are missing.

It appears that topsail clue and sheet are the same line which is incorrect.   The topsail clue line block would be secured to the clue of the topsail with an eye.  The topsail clue line runs from the topsail yard about 3/4 in from the yard arm  through this clue block at the clue of the sail, up to a block secured to the topsail yard just inboard of the standing part then down to the deck.

The sheet would have a knot at the end of the line and held to the topsail clue in an eye.  The sheet would go from the clue through a block under the the topsail yard near the slings, then out to the sheet block at the yard arm of the lower yard, through a center block under the lower yard, then down to and through a sheave in the bitts.   

Same basic problem in the drawing for the topgallant rigging.

For the topgallant rigging, there appears to be a lift block on the topsail yardarm.   At least for British ships, the topgallant lifts did not run to blocks on the topsail yardarms so there would not be a lift block on the topsail yards.

Topgallant clue lines rove from the clue of the sail up through blocks a few feet outboard of the slings, then down to the lower top and made fast to a cleat.

 

All in all, if you are looking for a bit more accuracy I would not use this drawing to rig your model. 

 

Mike, I would refer to one of the classic books on rigging such as Lees Masting and Rigging among others.    Petersson's Rigging Period Ship Models would likely help though it is for a specific ship (Melampus 1785) and may have some additional minor differences with Enterprise 1799.

Hope this helps!

Allan

 

[mikiek]

Hey Allan - This was not the only rigging diagram for the build. Instead of 1 drawing with everything, Constructo has about 8-9 separate drawings. Each with a small portion of the rigging. So it is possible that some of what you guys say are missing, may be on another drawing.

 

I kind of like that approach as I can tackle small portions of the rigging and I'm certain that I have overlooked something - assuming the drawings haven't overlooked something.

 

Unfortunately, none of the lines are labeled so it is difficult to follow along with what you guys are saying.

 

I think my original question is resolved - I will sieze a line to the yard, run it down the front to the corner, lace it thru the block at the corner then up the backside to the block on the yard. It just seemed weird that a rope would be stretched down in front of a sail, possibly keeping it from filling completely. Probably just me thinking too much.

 

Thanks to all for the feedback

[allanyed]

Mike,

Thanks for clarifying the situation.    Keep in mind that the drawing you show has the clue and sheet as the same rope for the topsail which does not make sense as they are two different lines with two different purposes.  Hopefully your other drawings clarify this.   Also the clue garnet would  be tied to the spar with a timber hitch, not a seizing so it could be untied with some ease.  For the clue, sheet and tack, the block arrangement at the clue of the sail is important.   Below is probably appropriate for Enterprise.  The bolt rope and clue of the sail is in red to more easily see how this is rigged.  The clue block is the one through which line #19 on the drawing you posted goes.     Allan

[amateur]

I never saw a clue-line on the front of the sail.: they run from the yard to the clue block, back to the block at the yard.

 

Jan

[allanyed]

Jan,  Based on how the clue block is rigged, I agree with you that would make the most sense.  As stated earlier, I have only seen drawings and rigged models with the leech lines on the fore side of the sail.  I just now did some more digging and based on the first photo below, the clue garnet does stay on the aft side of the sails.   The leech lines can be seen on the second photo on the fore side of the sail on this model circa 1750.  

 

 

[popeye2sea]

Clew lines rig on the back side of the sail only.  The standing end is timber hitched to the yard a little outboard of the block.  I then runs down to the clew garnet block at the lower corner of the sail and and back up to the clew block on the yard.  The hauling end is then often rove through another leading block closer to the mast before being led down to the deck and belayed.

Think about how that line would work if it was rigged as per the diagram.  It would bind on the sail at the clew garnet block and get fouled.

Bunt lines, leech lines, and bowlines are rigged in front of the sail.

 

Regards,

 

 

[mikiek]

Makes ya wonder where the model manufacturers get their ideas from 🤔

 

It's not too late to run the clew line down the back side of the sail.

[mtaylor]

1 hour ago, mikiek said:

Makes ya wonder where the model manufacturers get their ideas from 🤔

 

It's not too late to run the clew line down the back side of the sail.

Up until fairly recently, I believe they pulled a lot of their designs came out of the thin air.  If looked somewhat like a ship... box it and sell it.  I think the Internet has brought about a lot of change in the ship model industry as buyers are more aware of what's "real" and what's "real in the mind of the designer".  

[popeye2sea]

It seems that the people who make these plans have very little clew😉 about how a ship rig works.  They see a line that passes down the front of the sail and figure that it must attach to something that happens to be in the same area in the back. 

Of course, not knowing any better they do not even think about bunt lines or leech lines.  I wonder if those lines are anywhere in your rigging plan, Mike.

 

Regards,