MESSIS Posted July 15, 2020 Share #1 Posted July 15, 2020 Therefor the sources available are Homer’s works, Iliad ana Odyssey, the ancient vases of Homer’s life time, that is the time from the 8th to the 7th century bc and lastly the archaeological findings from the ship wrecks. Although is common knowledge that Homer’s epics refer to the Trojan war, that according to Heinrich Schliemann findings are dated in the 13th to the 12th century bc., Homer’s naval references correspond the naval reality of his life time. Out of a study of the above topics, I came to the conclusion (and I am not the first to do so) that Odysseus ship was a πεντηκόντορος, a penteconter. It had, as also her Greek name designates, 50 oars. That is 25 in each side. It also had a single mast with a single square sail. It was a very long boat, hence this type of ship, even the smaller ones with 30 or 20 oars, were described as long vessels (νῆες μακραί, nḗes makraí ). For the reconstruction project, of building Odysseus ship, I got two model ship kits from Dusek, that is the Greek bireme, in order to use/merge their elements and to by pass trivial work, which is supplied by the kits. Christos RussR, Edwardkenway and ccoyle 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MESSIS Posted July 15, 2020 Author Share #2 Posted July 15, 2020 As first I had to extend the short keel of the Dusek bireme. The bireme has a length of 395mm, that represents a ship of 28 meters length. Far to short for the long ship of Odysseus which was between 35 and 40 meters. The bireme has two rows of oars, one above the other on each side, with 13 oars each row, where the Penteconter had a single row on each side, but with far more oars, 25 on each side. bruce d, mtaylor, VTHokiEE and 4 others 7 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MESSIS Posted July 16, 2020 Author Share #3 Posted July 16, 2020 The lower deck mtaylor, Louie da fly, Cathead and 5 others 8 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Louie da fly Posted July 16, 2020 Share #4 Posted July 16, 2020 Nice choice, Christos. I think I'll pull up a chair, if I may. mtaylor 1 Quote It's not really a ship model unless you've bled on it. CURRENT BUILDS Golden City - Ballarat paddlewheeler La Lomellina - Theoretical Reconstruction of a Genoese carrack sunk in 1516 FINISHED Venetian merchant Ship from Basilica of San Marco Australian couta boat RMS Titanic HMVS Cerberus 11th century Byzantine dromon Winchelsea Nef - Late 13th century Mediaeval ship Henry Grace a Dieu - Rebuild of 1:200 model I started in 1967 Mistydeefer - restoration of decor model yacht Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MESSIS Posted July 16, 2020 Author Share #5 Posted July 16, 2020 @Louie da fly u r always welcome, as always! Louie da fly and mtaylor 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MESSIS Posted July 17, 2020 Author Share #6 Posted July 17, 2020 Upper deck, or the bridge connecting forecastle and quarterdeck/poop deck, is done. Now is time to begin planking, That said, appears to me that I have to explain that this is not the way a penteconter was build. On the contrary, at those ages, it was the other way around, It was build with the shell-first construction method. That is the planking was made prior to the framing of the ship. The frames were coming after planking. Of course here I could not follow this method so I proceed as the usual method frame first and then planking, that is the method that came later, after the 7th century bc. For the planking there is discussion. Were the ships planks those days joined together with mortise and tenons or if they were laced on each other. Although Homer describes Odysseus building a ship or some kind of a vessel, in order to leave Calypsos island, but although he explains clearly how Odysseus joins the planking, ‘’ he bored them all and fit them together and then with pegs and fasteners he hammer it together…” the various translations have produced a disagreement. In any case the laced method is the older method, that means that in Homers time most probably the new method -mortise-tenons- was used, Lionel Casson and many other scholars believe that probably penteconter were build with the modern method of mortise and tenons. Also at the substantial period the laced method was mostly found in wrecks around Egypt. Cathead, GrandpaPhil, VTHokiEE and 4 others 7 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cathead Posted July 17, 2020 Share #7 Posted July 17, 2020 Cool project, seems like a great chance to follow along and learn some more history. mtaylor 1 Quote Eric Current builds: scratchbuilt Missouri River steamboat Peerless (1893); 1:1 scale timber-framed outdoor kitchen Nautical builds (kits): USS Cairo; NRG capstan project; NRG half-hull; Viking longship; US revenue cutter; 18th century longboat; Bounty launch Missouri River craft (scratchbuilt): 1853 Missouri River steamboat Arabia; 1865 steamboat Bertrand; Lewis & Clark barge; keelboat; 1876 steamboat Far West Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edwardkenway Posted July 17, 2020 Share #8 Posted July 17, 2020 4 hours ago, Cathead said: Cool project, seems like a great chance to follow along and learn some more history. Yes, I love the stories of the Trojan war and subsequent tales of Odysseus trials and tribulations trying to get back to Ithaka and Penelope. I will enjoy watching his ship being built. mtaylor 1 Quote Current builds; Henry Ramey Upcher 1:25 Providence whaleboat- 1:25 HMS Winchelsea 1764 1:48 Completed: HM Cutter Sherbourne- 1:64- finished Triton cross section scratch- 1:60 - finished Non ship: SBD-3 Dauntless 1:48 Hasegawa -FINISHED Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MESSIS Posted July 18, 2020 Author Share #9 Posted July 18, 2020 A sketch showing the frame and its upper and lower ζυγά, the seats σέλμα, and lastly the planking, the wale and the decks. GrandpaPhil, mtaylor, JeffT and 2 others 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Louie da fly Posted July 19, 2020 Share #10 Posted July 19, 2020 I love the research you're putting ginto this, Christos. I take it you've seen the footage on Youtube of the Argo reconstruction? and It's hard to count the oars, but I think she's a pentekonter. Cathead and mtaylor 2 Quote It's not really a ship model unless you've bled on it. CURRENT BUILDS Golden City - Ballarat paddlewheeler La Lomellina - Theoretical Reconstruction of a Genoese carrack sunk in 1516 FINISHED Venetian merchant Ship from Basilica of San Marco Australian couta boat RMS Titanic HMVS Cerberus 11th century Byzantine dromon Winchelsea Nef - Late 13th century Mediaeval ship Henry Grace a Dieu - Rebuild of 1:200 model I started in 1967 Mistydeefer - restoration of decor model yacht Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MESSIS Posted July 19, 2020 Author Share #11 Posted July 19, 2020 @Louie da fly thank you very much Steven.No I was aware of the reconstruction of Argo, but I wasnt aware of the youtube video. I just saw it.. . thank you. What I have just seen, seems to be very near to what I had in mind out of my study. Though Argo is far shorter than I think a penteconter could have been .... I believe am more on the right side. Argo (replica), is said to be 28 meters, but if you allow a meter plus (according to the trireme Olympias expirement) for each oar's man, then you got more than the 28 meters without the ικρία, thats the forecastle and quarter deck. Lionel Casson's calculations are favourable to my view that a penteconter reached 40 m. That as a maximum, because above that, other issues appear (frame dynamic behaviour problems), making (for example) the existence of an exiconter εξηκόντορος (60 oars) impossible. Ofcourse there are scholars who believe that there were smaller penteconters even 28 to 30 meters. (S.Mark - Homeric Seafahring) I also have some minor objections concerning the beaklike bow, the colours the ornamentation etc Thank you Steven for adding usefull information to my work. Christos mtaylor, Cathead and bruce d 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Louie da fly Posted July 19, 2020 Share #12 Posted July 19, 2020 Happy to be of help, Christos. The Byzantine galea YK4 found at Yenikapi (the old harbour of Theodosius) had the rowing benches anywhere between 0.874 and 1.048 metres apart - with an average spacing of 0.96 metres. I found in my own dromon (also with 25 rowing positions, though on two levels rather than one) that allowing for about a meter between benches the bow and stern both needed to be longer than originally estimated. If I were to build it again I would make it 4 metres longer. I think your judgment regarding the bow shape, colours, ornamentation etc could well be better than that of the people who built the Argo reconstruction. mtaylor and Cathead 2 Quote It's not really a ship model unless you've bled on it. CURRENT BUILDS Golden City - Ballarat paddlewheeler La Lomellina - Theoretical Reconstruction of a Genoese carrack sunk in 1516 FINISHED Venetian merchant Ship from Basilica of San Marco Australian couta boat RMS Titanic HMVS Cerberus 11th century Byzantine dromon Winchelsea Nef - Late 13th century Mediaeval ship Henry Grace a Dieu - Rebuild of 1:200 model I started in 1967 Mistydeefer - restoration of decor model yacht Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MESSIS Posted July 21, 2020 Author Share #13 Posted July 21, 2020 The ancient port of Amathus.... in Cyprus Cathead, GrandpaPhil and mtaylor 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MESSIS Posted July 22, 2020 Author Share #14 Posted July 22, 2020 Planking slow but it proceeds. The planks are very thin and break easily. Another thing is that due to the length I need more than one plank for each row. Tom E, RussR, GrandpaPhil and 5 others 8 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bolin Posted July 23, 2020 Share #15 Posted July 23, 2020 Very interesting project. I’m just finishing reading the Iliad and is seriously tempted in building a penteconter. I will follow along and enjoy and learn from your endeavors. mtaylor and Louie da fly 2 Quote Current builds Meta - Billing Boats - Pentikontoros - Navarino Completed builds Swampscott Dory - BlueJacket - Will Everard - Billing Boats - Bohuseka (Swedish west-coast rowboat) - scratch build - Medieval long-ship Helga Holm - scratch build - Sloop from Roslagen - scratch build Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Louie da fly Posted July 24, 2020 Share #16 Posted July 24, 2020 On 7/22/2020 at 8:38 PM, MESSIS said: Another thing is that due to the length I need more than one plank for each row. Not to worry, Christos. I'm sure that was the way they did it back in the day! Looking very good. mtaylor and Edwardkenway 2 Quote It's not really a ship model unless you've bled on it. CURRENT BUILDS Golden City - Ballarat paddlewheeler La Lomellina - Theoretical Reconstruction of a Genoese carrack sunk in 1516 FINISHED Venetian merchant Ship from Basilica of San Marco Australian couta boat RMS Titanic HMVS Cerberus 11th century Byzantine dromon Winchelsea Nef - Late 13th century Mediaeval ship Henry Grace a Dieu - Rebuild of 1:200 model I started in 1967 Mistydeefer - restoration of decor model yacht Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MESSIS Posted July 24, 2020 Author Share #17 Posted July 24, 2020 Steven, I dont think so.As you are aware of, they were building their ships with the shell first method. Meaning there were no frames to connect on the next plank. Ofcourse you will ask now, how were they finding 40 meter long planks for the penteconters.... And I will answer that I dont know 🤯 Louie da fly and mtaylor 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Louie da fly Posted July 24, 2020 Share #18 Posted July 24, 2020 Hmm, very interesting. Neither do I. I wonder what the builders of the Argo reconstruction did? mtaylor 1 Quote It's not really a ship model unless you've bled on it. CURRENT BUILDS Golden City - Ballarat paddlewheeler La Lomellina - Theoretical Reconstruction of a Genoese carrack sunk in 1516 FINISHED Venetian merchant Ship from Basilica of San Marco Australian couta boat RMS Titanic HMVS Cerberus 11th century Byzantine dromon Winchelsea Nef - Late 13th century Mediaeval ship Henry Grace a Dieu - Rebuild of 1:200 model I started in 1967 Mistydeefer - restoration of decor model yacht Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MESSIS Posted July 24, 2020 Author Share #19 Posted July 24, 2020 This is how the plank extension was made by the Kyrenia ship (found by its wreckage). But that is 4th century bc.Pentconter is 12th to 11th cent.bc mtaylor and Cathead 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Louie da fly Posted July 25, 2020 Share #20 Posted July 25, 2020 So, a scarph joint reinforced with tenons. Makes sense. mtaylor 1 Quote It's not really a ship model unless you've bled on it. CURRENT BUILDS Golden City - Ballarat paddlewheeler La Lomellina - Theoretical Reconstruction of a Genoese carrack sunk in 1516 FINISHED Venetian merchant Ship from Basilica of San Marco Australian couta boat RMS Titanic HMVS Cerberus 11th century Byzantine dromon Winchelsea Nef - Late 13th century Mediaeval ship Henry Grace a Dieu - Rebuild of 1:200 model I started in 1967 Mistydeefer - restoration of decor model yacht Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MESSIS Posted July 25, 2020 Author Share #21 Posted July 25, 2020 Yes, it makes sense. Still there is mo evedence if that was the case for the penterconter. On the other hand I dont believe that a 40 meter lenght ship was made by a single plank.in each strake. I dont think they could do that and find and cut trees of that length. Louie da fly and mtaylor 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MESSIS Posted July 29, 2020 Author Share #22 Posted July 29, 2020 Planking slow but steady... Cathead, RussR, Louie da fly and 2 others 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Louie da fly Posted July 30, 2020 Share #23 Posted July 30, 2020 Looking very good, Christos MESSIS and mtaylor 2 Quote It's not really a ship model unless you've bled on it. CURRENT BUILDS Golden City - Ballarat paddlewheeler La Lomellina - Theoretical Reconstruction of a Genoese carrack sunk in 1516 FINISHED Venetian merchant Ship from Basilica of San Marco Australian couta boat RMS Titanic HMVS Cerberus 11th century Byzantine dromon Winchelsea Nef - Late 13th century Mediaeval ship Henry Grace a Dieu - Rebuild of 1:200 model I started in 1967 Mistydeefer - restoration of decor model yacht Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MESSIS Posted August 9, 2020 Author Share #24 Posted August 9, 2020 Planoing the shell with oak Morgan, VTHokiEE, mtaylor and 6 others 9 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Louie da fly Posted August 11, 2020 Share #25 Posted August 11, 2020 Nice to see the hull planked, Christos. That's a very nice shape. mtaylor and BLACK VIKING 2 Quote It's not really a ship model unless you've bled on it. CURRENT BUILDS Golden City - Ballarat paddlewheeler La Lomellina - Theoretical Reconstruction of a Genoese carrack sunk in 1516 FINISHED Venetian merchant Ship from Basilica of San Marco Australian couta boat RMS Titanic HMVS Cerberus 11th century Byzantine dromon Winchelsea Nef - Late 13th century Mediaeval ship Henry Grace a Dieu - Rebuild of 1:200 model I started in 1967 Mistydeefer - restoration of decor model yacht Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MESSIS Posted August 12, 2020 Author Share #26 Posted August 12, 2020 @Louie da fly thx, it seems am over the crical point of not completing the model. After the framing and planking now its easy to proceed with what it remains in order to rebuilt Homer's ship. I believe the result will be historicaly representable or at least within the frame of Homer's imagination. Edwardkenway, BLACK VIKING and mtaylor 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MESSIS Posted August 12, 2020 Author Share #27 Posted August 12, 2020 And here you can see akrostolion (stem decoration) and aflaston (stern decoration), both had a religious symbolism. And the 3rd picture shows epigenides and zyga, which ofcourse were futtocks (epigenides) and zyga the crossbeams which I dont know how is called in english. And lastly the beakhead, which is not a ram (no rams at that point in naval history)but just a beakhead helping the ship's/keel's stability. mtaylor, Edwardkenway, bigpetr and 1 other 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Louie da fly Posted August 12, 2020 Share #28 Posted August 12, 2020 17 minutes ago, MESSIS said: the crossbeams which I dont know how is called in english If they supported a full deck they'd be called deck beams. The most accurate term might still be "upper deck beam"- but as the upper deck is really what we would call a catwalk, perhaps "catwalk beams"? mtaylor 1 Quote It's not really a ship model unless you've bled on it. CURRENT BUILDS Golden City - Ballarat paddlewheeler La Lomellina - Theoretical Reconstruction of a Genoese carrack sunk in 1516 FINISHED Venetian merchant Ship from Basilica of San Marco Australian couta boat RMS Titanic HMVS Cerberus 11th century Byzantine dromon Winchelsea Nef - Late 13th century Mediaeval ship Henry Grace a Dieu - Rebuild of 1:200 model I started in 1967 Mistydeefer - restoration of decor model yacht Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MESSIS Posted August 12, 2020 Author Share #29 Posted August 12, 2020 thanks Steven. Very nice of you to explain to me. Actualy they operated as holders of the futtocks in the radia direction, helping I guess against shell compression or tenstion tension. I also believe that each frame hat two of those, one lowere and one up. mtaylor 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Louie da fly Posted August 12, 2020 Share #30 Posted August 12, 2020 Yes, the deck beams had two functions - to support the deck, but just as importantly, to hold the frames apart so they kept their shape. And there'd need to be two sets of beams to hold the two decks, but two would also maintain the hull shape even better. MESSIS, mtaylor and Edwardkenway 3 Quote It's not really a ship model unless you've bled on it. CURRENT BUILDS Golden City - Ballarat paddlewheeler La Lomellina - Theoretical Reconstruction of a Genoese carrack sunk in 1516 FINISHED Venetian merchant Ship from Basilica of San Marco Australian couta boat RMS Titanic HMVS Cerberus 11th century Byzantine dromon Winchelsea Nef - Late 13th century Mediaeval ship Henry Grace a Dieu - Rebuild of 1:200 model I started in 1967 Mistydeefer - restoration of decor model yacht Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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