MESSIS Posted September 27, 2020 Author Share #61 Posted September 27, 2020 Λίκνον is ancient greek but strictly speaking not a homeric word. It is not contained either in Iliad nor Odyssey. It is mentioned though in the Homeric hymns* (I am sure its mentioned in the hymn to Hermes). It means the "baby cot" and wider means there where something was created. Is very oft used in the phrase "Ελλάδα το λίκνον του πολιτισμού"... *the Homeric hymns are anonymus. They are called homeric because the same epic meter is used as Iliad and Odyssey. They also use the same dialect. Translation of Homer can be very tricky as @Danstream above translates "winnowing fan", it can not be certain if that is a correct translation. Some translations even use the sound similar word to liknon, the word liknistiri. It means pitchfork... which again makes sense, but can not taken as certain. The word used actualy by Homer is αθηρολοιγόν! Atheroma is or can be a plate or a slab. Why can not an oar blade be that? I dont know. Kazantzakis (I believe the authority in Homeric translation) translates to greek using the word δίκρανο. Meaning again something like pitchfork or rake (I dont know if my weak knowledge in english translates ok). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Danstream Posted September 27, 2020 Share #62 Posted September 27, 2020 Dear all, the discussion is very interesting. Just a clarification for Messis: clearly I did not translate the text above, I just downloaded the translation from internet once the episode of Tiresias popped up in my memory. I studied ancient Greek in my Gymnasium school in Italy, but it was 45-50 years ago and I completely lost my skills for translation. However, after the last posts, I went back to my books and indeed, the term used in my text of the Odissea was αθηρολοιγόν. Now my Greek-Italian vocabulary translate it as 'ventilabro', which, as it was indicated also by Louie above, was an old tool used in agriculture to launch the grain in the air and is similar to a shovel. Looking into the pictures of the 'museo della agricoltura', in Italy (agriculture tradition museum) , I found, among others, this suggestive picture: Well, I think that having a oar that shaped is not an unrealistic assumption. Note that in some translations which are more oriented to a wide audience, in English, the object the oar is mistaken with is translated as 'shovel'. Sorry for my long digression, I hope you find it interesting, Best regards, Dan. MESSIS 1 Quote Current build : Mayflower - AL 1:64, Lady Nelson - Amati Victory 1:64 Completed non-ship builds : Spitfire MK I - 1:48, Arado 196B - 1:32, Sea Fury - 1:48, F-15C Eagle - 1:48, Hawker Tempest Mk.V - 1:48, F104S Starfighter - 1:48 "The most effective way to do it, is to do it" - Amelia Earhart Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MESSIS Posted September 27, 2020 Author Share #63 Posted September 27, 2020 @Danstream what you just posted sounds very rellistic and I believe that could also be a translation very possibly correct. Actualy the object on the pic you posted is called δικρανο in greek and this is how Kazantzakis has also translated. And the same surely was done by@Louie da flywho is very familiar with the ancient naval history and has very good knowledge of the corresponding greek language. Sorry about saying it was your traslation, I meant the translation you posted. The issue is that any translation has a risk because its not known what exactly is the translation of the homeric word αθηρολοιγόν. This is what is oft happenning with the homeric texts. Thats why I mentioned previously the "homeric fog" and the linguistic codes of Homer.... unlocking them isnt easy. You are right the discuttion is very interesting.Thank you for contributting to that. I really enjoy it. Rik Thistle, Danstream and mtaylor 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Louie da fly Posted September 27, 2020 Share #64 Posted September 27, 2020 Fascinating stuff. This "winnowing shovel" looks a lot more like an oar than a winnowing fan does. Just reinforces the fact that translations can give a wrong impression, just as in the "red-cheeked" vessels we discussed earlier. It's very difficult if not impossible to give an exact translation from one language to another and retain the full sense of the original. On the other hand, I've learnt something from all this - I didn't know there was an implement like that shovel thing - very interesting. mtaylor, MESSIS and Danstream 3 Quote It's not really a ship model unless you've bled on it. CURRENT BUILDS Golden City - Ballarat paddlewheeler La Lomellina - Theoretical Reconstruction of a Genoese carrack sunk in 1516 FINISHED Venetian merchant Ship from Basilica of San Marco Australian couta boat RMS Titanic HMVS Cerberus 11th century Byzantine dromon Winchelsea Nef - Late 13th century Mediaeval ship Henry Grace a Dieu - Rebuild of 1:200 model I started in 1967 Mistydeefer - restoration of decor model yacht Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MESSIS Posted October 7, 2020 Author Share #65 Posted October 7, 2020 Oars and oars, oars and oars nightmares... oars. 50 of those! Argo was a pentconter as well, thats the re[lica of Argo. Oars called Ερετμά (eretma) in homeric world, κουπιά in greek today. J11, Archi, Cathead and 4 others 7 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Louie da fly Posted October 9, 2020 Share #66 Posted October 9, 2020 That's looking very good, Christos. I do know how you feel making all those oars . . . Cathead, J11 and mtaylor 3 Quote It's not really a ship model unless you've bled on it. CURRENT BUILDS Golden City - Ballarat paddlewheeler La Lomellina - Theoretical Reconstruction of a Genoese carrack sunk in 1516 FINISHED Venetian merchant Ship from Basilica of San Marco Australian couta boat RMS Titanic HMVS Cerberus 11th century Byzantine dromon Winchelsea Nef - Late 13th century Mediaeval ship Henry Grace a Dieu - Rebuild of 1:200 model I started in 1967 Mistydeefer - restoration of decor model yacht Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MESSIS Posted October 9, 2020 Author Share #67 Posted October 9, 2020 Thank you Steven. It seems am at the end, the mast its on its way... And I have pictures which I took myself of the rigging of the Kyrenia replica, so it would not be very hard. mtaylor 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Danstream Posted October 9, 2020 Share #68 Posted October 9, 2020 Looks very good @MESSIS. I like the way you tied up the oars better than the way showed in the picture of the real replica, where the thrust of the oars is transmitted to the ship via the ropes. In your way, the oars push directly on the stanchions during the active part of their stroke (but perhaps there might be an issue of deterioration of the area of contact?). Very good job in carving fifty identical oars. Dan. mtaylor and Louie da fly 2 Quote Current build : Mayflower - AL 1:64, Lady Nelson - Amati Victory 1:64 Completed non-ship builds : Spitfire MK I - 1:48, Arado 196B - 1:32, Sea Fury - 1:48, F-15C Eagle - 1:48, Hawker Tempest Mk.V - 1:48, F104S Starfighter - 1:48 "The most effective way to do it, is to do it" - Amelia Earhart Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MESSIS Posted October 9, 2020 Author Share #69 Posted October 9, 2020 @Danstream Dan, believe it or not, you just made my day! I was dissapointed with my oar's work. I though they were not good enough reproduced... I thought that was the black ship of this project. But you just made me think better. Thank you for your nice words, I did looked the model again and .... at least you are most persuasive! Vielen dank Christos Ps. For the arrangement of the oars though I had found evidence on vessels showing this , I mostly did so, because as an engineer this is the correct thinking (as you just mentioned above) Louie da fly, Danstream and mtaylor 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MESSIS Posted October 9, 2020 Author Share #70 Posted October 9, 2020 A picture making things better... Louie da fly, Cathead, mtaylor and 1 other 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Louie da fly Posted October 10, 2020 Share #71 Posted October 10, 2020 They look good to me, Christos. I found I had the same problem when I made my oars - I concentrated too hard on the (tiny) faults in each individual oar. But when the oars are seen all together, those things become almost invisible. What you are aware of is the overall picture - a whole lot of oars all together. And if there are individual differences between the oars you really don't see them. Dan, both methods of fixing the oars to the pivots are and have been used, but one is certainly better than the other. Why doesn't everybody use the more efficient method? "Because we've always done it that way, and what was good enough for grandad is good enough for me . . ." mtaylor 1 Quote It's not really a ship model unless you've bled on it. CURRENT BUILDS Golden City - Ballarat paddlewheeler La Lomellina - Theoretical Reconstruction of a Genoese carrack sunk in 1516 FINISHED Venetian merchant Ship from Basilica of San Marco Australian couta boat RMS Titanic HMVS Cerberus 11th century Byzantine dromon Winchelsea Nef - Late 13th century Mediaeval ship Henry Grace a Dieu - Rebuild of 1:200 model I started in 1967 Mistydeefer - restoration of decor model yacht Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MESSIS Posted October 11, 2020 Author Share #72 Posted October 11, 2020 @Louie da fly thank you Steven, it seemsyou are right, the thing is "dont concetrade on those small faults, look the whole". Ofcourse youknow that we, the modellers, is part of our masochism to concentrate exactly on our faults even if they are tinny and of no importance. mtaylor 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Louie da fly Posted October 11, 2020 Share #73 Posted October 11, 2020 18 minutes ago, MESSIS said: Ofcourse youknow that we, the modellers, is part of our masochism to concentrate exactly on our faults even if they are tinny and of no importance. Oh yes. I certainly know that feeling. mtaylor 1 Quote It's not really a ship model unless you've bled on it. CURRENT BUILDS Golden City - Ballarat paddlewheeler La Lomellina - Theoretical Reconstruction of a Genoese carrack sunk in 1516 FINISHED Venetian merchant Ship from Basilica of San Marco Australian couta boat RMS Titanic HMVS Cerberus 11th century Byzantine dromon Winchelsea Nef - Late 13th century Mediaeval ship Henry Grace a Dieu - Rebuild of 1:200 model I started in 1967 Mistydeefer - restoration of decor model yacht Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MESSIS Posted October 11, 2020 Author Share #74 Posted October 11, 2020 This is ιστοδόκη (istodoki) the arrangement to store the mast as it was lowered when the ship was parked ashore. Ιστό-ς =mast, δόκη from verb δέχομαι=accept Modern greek = ιστοθήκη, english = mast-holder mtaylor and Edwardkenway 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MESSIS Posted October 12, 2020 Author Share #75 Posted October 12, 2020 I am sailing.... almost. VTHokiEE, Lt. Biggles, GrandpaPhil and 6 others 9 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Louie da fly Posted October 13, 2020 Share #76 Posted October 13, 2020 Looking very good, Christos! She's almost ready to go. I thought you might like a few contemporary representations of vessels with dropped masts, showing the ιστοδόκη on each. 3rd century galley mosaic, Themetra, Tunisia Themetra baths Tunisia Themetra baths Tunisia Hellenic ship, mosaic (ca 1st century BCE-CE). This one doesn't show the ιστοδόκη, but it looks like they're dropping the mast. Trajan's column c. 114 C.E. Trajan's column c. 114 C.E. bigpetr, J11 and mtaylor 3 Quote It's not really a ship model unless you've bled on it. CURRENT BUILDS Golden City - Ballarat paddlewheeler La Lomellina - Theoretical Reconstruction of a Genoese carrack sunk in 1516 FINISHED Venetian merchant Ship from Basilica of San Marco Australian couta boat RMS Titanic HMVS Cerberus 11th century Byzantine dromon Winchelsea Nef - Late 13th century Mediaeval ship Henry Grace a Dieu - Rebuild of 1:200 model I started in 1967 Mistydeefer - restoration of decor model yacht Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MESSIS Posted October 13, 2020 Author Share #77 Posted October 13, 2020 Thank you Steven. Great pictures thanks... I might use in my book one of those. Can you please tell a little more over the themrtra Tunisia in order to find the sources? mtaylor 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Louie da fly Posted October 14, 2020 Share #78 Posted October 14, 2020 Glad you liked them, Christos. Probably the best website for these is https://zaherkammoun.com/2017/01/06/des-mosaiques-de-sousse/ mtaylor 1 Quote It's not really a ship model unless you've bled on it. CURRENT BUILDS Golden City - Ballarat paddlewheeler La Lomellina - Theoretical Reconstruction of a Genoese carrack sunk in 1516 FINISHED Venetian merchant Ship from Basilica of San Marco Australian couta boat RMS Titanic HMVS Cerberus 11th century Byzantine dromon Winchelsea Nef - Late 13th century Mediaeval ship Henry Grace a Dieu - Rebuild of 1:200 model I started in 1967 Mistydeefer - restoration of decor model yacht Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MESSIS Posted October 14, 2020 Author Share #79 Posted October 14, 2020 Am done... Odysseous is traveling back to Ithaka. BenD, GrandpaPhil, bigpetr and 10 others 13 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Louie da fly Posted October 14, 2020 Share #80 Posted October 14, 2020 9 hours ago, MESSIS said: Odysseous is traveling back to Ithaka. He probably thinks it'll only take a week or so . . . Beautiful work, Christos. A model to be proud of. MESSIS 1 Quote It's not really a ship model unless you've bled on it. CURRENT BUILDS Golden City - Ballarat paddlewheeler La Lomellina - Theoretical Reconstruction of a Genoese carrack sunk in 1516 FINISHED Venetian merchant Ship from Basilica of San Marco Australian couta boat RMS Titanic HMVS Cerberus 11th century Byzantine dromon Winchelsea Nef - Late 13th century Mediaeval ship Henry Grace a Dieu - Rebuild of 1:200 model I started in 1967 Mistydeefer - restoration of decor model yacht Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mtaylor Posted October 14, 2020 Share #81 Posted October 14, 2020 Beautiful, Christos. If it takes longer than a week to get back to Ithaka, order the rowers to row faster. MESSIS 1 Quote Mark "The shipwright is slow, but the wood is patient." - me Current Build: Past Builds: La Belle Poule 1765 - French Frigate from ANCRE plans - ON HOLD Triton Cross-Section NRG Hallf Hull Planking Kit HMS Sphinx 1775 - Vanguard Models - 1:64 Non-Ship Model: On hold, maybe forever: CH-53 Sikorsky - 1:48 - Revell - Completed Licorne - 1755 from Hahn Plans (Scratch) Version 2.0 (Abandoned) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Louie da fly Posted October 15, 2020 Share #82 Posted October 15, 2020 Yeah, but 10 years? Something seriously wrong with his GPS. And of course it's not a good idea to annoy the sea-god. mtaylor and MESSIS 2 Quote It's not really a ship model unless you've bled on it. CURRENT BUILDS Golden City - Ballarat paddlewheeler La Lomellina - Theoretical Reconstruction of a Genoese carrack sunk in 1516 FINISHED Venetian merchant Ship from Basilica of San Marco Australian couta boat RMS Titanic HMVS Cerberus 11th century Byzantine dromon Winchelsea Nef - Late 13th century Mediaeval ship Henry Grace a Dieu - Rebuild of 1:200 model I started in 1967 Mistydeefer - restoration of decor model yacht Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MESSIS Posted October 15, 2020 Author Share #83 Posted October 15, 2020 @mtaylor thank you. It was the only way to present an archetype of all seafarers that before him explored and discovered new places and new sea routes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Louie da fly Posted October 15, 2020 Share #84 Posted October 15, 2020 Just discovered another rendition of an ιστοδόκη. Unfortunately I haven't been able to find a source for it (I got it off Pinterest), but I believe it to be Roman. J11 and mtaylor 2 Quote It's not really a ship model unless you've bled on it. CURRENT BUILDS Golden City - Ballarat paddlewheeler La Lomellina - Theoretical Reconstruction of a Genoese carrack sunk in 1516 FINISHED Venetian merchant Ship from Basilica of San Marco Australian couta boat RMS Titanic HMVS Cerberus 11th century Byzantine dromon Winchelsea Nef - Late 13th century Mediaeval ship Henry Grace a Dieu - Rebuild of 1:200 model I started in 1967 Mistydeefer - restoration of decor model yacht Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MESSIS Posted October 15, 2020 Author Share #85 Posted October 15, 2020 Great picture Steven! mtaylor 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MESSIS Posted October 15, 2020 Author Share #86 Posted October 15, 2020 @Louie da fly look at this.... J11, mtaylor and Archi 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigpetr Posted October 15, 2020 Share #87 Posted October 15, 2020 What a beautiful and detailed model. Congratulations. It is just a thought, but I would appriciate something to show the scale of the ship, something like stylizes "architectural" style scale figure standing on the deck or better on the base so it do not interfere with the model. mtaylor 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MESSIS Posted October 15, 2020 Author Share #88 Posted October 15, 2020 @bigpetr thank you for you nice words. The model is scale 1-72. Taking a picture near a coin or figure is too late, the model is allready sealed in its display glass mtaylor and bigpetr 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Louie da fly Posted October 15, 2020 Share #89 Posted October 15, 2020 12 hours ago, MESSIS said: look at this. Oh, wow - they just keep on coming up! I'm familiar with this picture, but I never noticed the ιστοδόκη before. MESSIS 1 Quote It's not really a ship model unless you've bled on it. CURRENT BUILDS Golden City - Ballarat paddlewheeler La Lomellina - Theoretical Reconstruction of a Genoese carrack sunk in 1516 FINISHED Venetian merchant Ship from Basilica of San Marco Australian couta boat RMS Titanic HMVS Cerberus 11th century Byzantine dromon Winchelsea Nef - Late 13th century Mediaeval ship Henry Grace a Dieu - Rebuild of 1:200 model I started in 1967 Mistydeefer - restoration of decor model yacht Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cathead Posted October 16, 2020 Share #90 Posted October 16, 2020 Lovely and unique model, thanks for sharing your work with us! MESSIS 1 Quote Eric Current builds: scratchbuilt Missouri River steamboat Peerless (1893); 1:1 scale timber-framed outdoor kitchen Nautical builds (kits): USS Cairo; NRG capstan project; NRG half-hull; Viking longship; US revenue cutter; 18th century longboat; Bounty launch Missouri River craft (scratchbuilt): 1853 Missouri River steamboat Arabia; 1865 steamboat Bertrand; Lewis & Clark barge; keelboat; 1876 steamboat Far West Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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