Question about painting and staining

[tomsimon]

Looking forward to insights on painting and staining. Is it best practice to paint/stain as a model ship is being built, or is it better to wait until the entire ship is built, then paint and stain?  Thanks for insights and help. 

[Louie da fly]

There are pros and cons for both. Naturally staining/painting everything beforehand means don't miss any corners, and you don't get the problem that blobs of glue resist the stain. But I believe there can be problems with adhesion of glue over stain or paint.

 

I normally construct and glue, and then paint - but that's just me - most of the time. And I don't use stain. 

[tomsimon]

Let’s say that I have just finished planking the hull, should I paint/stain or wait until the entire ship is done?

[mtaylor]

After planking, you'll still have a bunch of work to do the hull.  I usually wait until pretty much everything but rigging is done. But then, I also I don't stain or paint, I only put on a finish and some parts get the finish as I do them since I won't be able to have access after a certain point.

 

My take is that it's one of those things you pretty much have to sort it out as you go.  If you don't have to glue anything, then it's ok to finish it.

 

[vaddoc]

It might be easier to paint the hull upside down or something may go horribly wrong and the whole thing needing to sand down and re-do. If you paint the hull, it will need sanding and sealing anyway so that means treating it rough. I would finish with the hull and then proceed. For the rest of the build, rest the hull on something that will not scratch it.

[Bob Cleek]

When and what to paint really depends upon the progress of the build. Generally, apply finish coatings when it is easiest to do so. It's surely easier to paint separate parts and then secure them to the model if that avoids having to mask or carefully cut in edges. If a hull has a lot of "attachments," it's often much easier to finish the overall hull coatings first and then add the attachments because you'll be sanding "wide open spaces" and not having to sand around edges and corners (which you don't want to round off with sandpaper, anyhow.) Bottom line, "use your own judgment."

 

As for protecting finished work, here again, common sense prevails and discovering solutions is part of the joy of the hobby. I often find using those foam insulating split tubes they sell at the hardware store to keep pipes from freezing or to insulate hot water pipes under houses is a good way to protect finishes during construction. They can be cut up in sections and several sections taped together at the ends with duct tape to form a "cradle" that will hold a model hull upright and secure without marring the finish on the hull.

 

You will often read that parts should best not be glued to finish coated surfaces and that's generally sound advice. That said, however, many of us hew to the traditional US Navy contract ship model "mil-spec" requirements and always mechanically fasten parts on our models, most often with a peg glued into a drilled hole or similar. This practice renders the "don't glue to painted surfaces" advise irrelevant and also eliminates most all  problems with adhesives letting go.

 

Finish coatings are an essential feature of a well done model and developing the skills necessary to do a good job does present something of a learning curve, even for a somewhat experienced painter. You'd do well to try to find some instructional videos on the subject and study up on it before you start painting your model. YouTube is full of videos on painting models. Don't just look for ship models. Some of the best are done by the military equipment modelers and the fantasy gaming figure modelers. Painting any miniature is all pretty much the same, but it isn't the same as painting a house!

 

Finally, one bit of advice that few new painters learn out the easy way. Always try out every coating you are going to use on a similar surface other than your model and on the test piece determine if the paint's consistency, "leveling ability,"  and drying time, etc., are as you intend them to be. If we had a dime for every post that started, "I've waited a couple of days after painting my hull and it's still all sticky and not dry..." we'd be rich people today. Learn to condition your paint and always test it first on a scrap piece of material ! (And save those scraps in case you want to paint over it later, too. That's the way to make sure that a later coat is compatible with the earlier one ! )

[tomsimon]

13 minutes ago, Bob Cleek said:

"I've waited a couple of days after painting my hull and it's still all sticky and not dry..." we'd be rich people today. Learn to condition your paint

 

Hi Bob: Thank you for your narrative. If you are able, would you, please, provide details about, the quote above. I know there is sage advice in there, but I can’t seem to decipher. Thank you. 

 

 

[Thunder]

Many times people have made the above quote because they have failed to test the paint on some scrap material or small area. Oils in some woods stop the paint setting. Some paint is designed for plastic and this causes the above.

[Bob Cleek]

4 hours ago, tomsimon said:

 

Hi Bob: Thank you for your narrative. If you are able, would you, please, provide details about, the quote above. I know there is sage advice in there, but I can’t seem to decipher. Thank you. 

 

 

Just what Thunder said. Today's bottled modeling paints, particularly the acrylic "water based" types, are the result of complex chemistry and there is a lot that can go wrong with them, especially when they are combined with other types and brands. Acrylic water based paint often does not adhere well, if at all, over oil based paints, while oil based paints will adhere to acrylics. Under coats are sometimes incompatible with finish coats. While dried pigment generally appears darker than wet pigment, colors may, upon drying, appear different in unanticipated ways. If paint ages in the bottle, it sometimes won't perform as expected. Using the wrong thinner or conditioner, which works for one brand and not another can cause problems, too.  A common malfunction occurs when paint doesn't dry, or in the case of acrylics, "cure" fully and remains tacky to the touch. The only cure for this problem is to remove the paint completely and start over. That's a terrible, nasty, messy job. You don't want to have to go there ever. 

 

So, the moral of the story, at least until you are completely certain and comfortable with a particular coating, is to test it first on a piece of scrap material or, as the professional painters call them, a "chip." That "paint chip" gives you a preview of how that paint will perform. If it doesn't perform as you require on the chip, you've lost nothing. On the model, it's another matter entirely. These chips are also worth saving, with any helpful information written on the back with a Sharpie pen, such as the brand and color and they type of thinner and/or conditioner used. Other colors can be applied over a section of a chip as well, and this will provide information on how well that color "covers" and what it will look like when dried on top of the earlier coat. This practice comes in very handy if and when you graduate to painting with an airbrush, which is more demanding of properly conditioned paint than brushes are.

 

I'll pass on writing an entire dissertation here on conditioning paint, but suffice it to say that it is a rare bottle of paint that contains paint ready for use "right out of the bottle" or can. Environmental factors such as temperature and humidity affect the behavior of paint to greater or lesser degrees depending upon the paint, oil or water based. (You will probably end up preferring one or the other. I prefer oil based paints and often use fine arts artists' oil paints sold in "toothpaste" tubes from art supply stores, which I condition to my own taste. Your mileage may vary. "Dance with the gal ya brought.") These conditioners create the characteristics of the paint. Thinners simply are solvents (or water or alcohol with water based acrylics) that make the paint thinner. Thinners can also contribute to the "flattening" of glossy paint, a desired effect for models, which should not be finished glossy because gloss is out of scale. "Flatteners" will also flatten glossy paint. The more you add, the flatter the paint gets. Other conditioners will improve the "flow" of the paint, basically slowing its drying time, so a brush won't "drag" and a "wet edge" can be maintained more easily. Paint that "flows" well will also "lay down" easily and brush strokes will disappear as the paint "levels." Too much, on the other hand, can cause paint to sag and create drips and "curtains." Driers, often sold as "Japan Drier" in the case of oil paints, contain heavy metals which speed the drying of the paint, the opposite of conditioners that improve flow. On hot days with low humidity, you will add conditioners to slow the rate of drying, while on cold days with high humidity, you'll add conditioners to speed up drying. These skills become even more important when airbrushing and spray painting because the atomized sprayed paint has to hit the piece before the solvents kick off, and then lay down before drying to achieve a perfectly smooth finish, yet not be so thin or retarded (slowed down) that they run or "curtain" after being sprayed. (And if you are of a mind to spray paint, forget the rattle cans and go for an airbrush. It will pay for itself over the rattle cans, which always seem to crap out while they're half full and never really give the same control or results.)

 

You need to also remember that wood has to be sealed before painting so the paint won't soak into the wood and produce an uneven coating. I use shellac for this because it is easy to work with, dries fast, is economical, soaks into the bare wood well, is compatible with all other coatings when dry, and sands very nicely to a very fine smooth finish. 

 

This may all sound a bit overwhelming at first, but it's not rocket science. If you're lucky, you'll find somebody who can show you how it's done and you'll be on your way. It's a lot easier to learn by watching somebody do it than it is to learn it out of a book. Experiment a little and get the hang of it, but, most importantly, practice and learn on scrap pieces before starting to slap paint on a model you've spent a lot of time on. That will save you a lot of grief. 

 

This fellow seems to have a pretty good video on the subject.painting miniatures. 

 

 

[tomsimon]

Thunder and Bob: Thank you very much. Would you recommend that shellac should be applied to the wood before staining, also, or only before painting?  Thanks

[Canute]

Since shellac seals the wood, stain it before sealing it. The glues we use also seal the wood, so again, stain beforehand. Test your stains on spare pieces of wood to see if the results are what you expect. The basswood used in some kits stains unevenly, so you may need a conditioner before staining. Minwax makes such a product.

 

Have fun in your build.

[Bob Cleek]

7 hours ago, tomsimon said:

Thunder and Bob: Thank you very much. Would you recommend that shellac should be applied to the wood before staining, also, or only before painting?  Thanks

What Canute said. Stain penetrates the wood, so if shellac seals the wood, stain can't penetrate it. One of the problems to note about staining is that the stain has to be compatible with whatever coating you apply over it, as well. 

 

I don't want to start a big controversy here, but I can't resist offering my two cents' worth. I'm not a fan of staining on models. There are some times when it might be indicated, on spars, perhaps, or possibly laid decks, but the simple fact is that the real purpose of stain is to make one wood look like another and, like most faux finishes, it may come close, but never hits the mark completely. Stain enhances the figuring of some woods, which is good for furniture, but since there aren't any woods that have grain features that are to the scale of most any model, enhancing the grain of wood on a model is the last thing a modeler should want to do. Some like to portray their models "au natural," without any paint. This style best exhibits the exact construction features of the prototype and the skill of the modeler, with each faying surface highlighted in black and every fastening in its proper place. In that case, the best approach is to use a fine finish wood species that serves the purpose and looks well clearly sealed or lightly oiled or waxed. If it's the beauty of bare wood you want, there's so little wood in a model that there's no reason not to buy the good stuff and show it off. Staining basswood is like trying to polish a turd.

 

And I'll mention in passing that "wipe on poly" is a rip off. It's just polyurethane varnish that's been thinned, canned, and marketed to consumers who don't know the difference. Thinner is relatively cheap. Buying thinned varnish and paint for the same price as the thick stuff is a waste of money. Thin your coatings yourself and save a bundle.

[tomsimon]

Thanks all for insights. I have learned a lot about staining, painting and sealing wood properly and how best to make wood appear it’s most natural. 

[Roger Pellett]

In getting a good painted finish, the first coat is sacrificial.  Regardless of how well you sand, the first opaque coat will turn up blemishes that must be repaired.  For reasons that I cannot understand, the eye fails to pick them up on sanded bare wood.

 

It can, therefore, make sense to apply a coat of paint as soon as you are convinced that the hull has been properly sanded/ faired.  Waiting until the model is more finished risks damaging fragile parts.

 

Roger

 

[Bob Cleek]

19 hours ago, Roger Pellett said:

In getting a good painted finish, the first coat is sacrificial.  Regardless of how well you sand, the first opaque coat will turn up blemishes that must be repaired.  For reasons that I cannot understand, the eye fails to pick them up on sanded bare wood.

 

It can, therefore, make sense to apply a coat of paint as soon as you are convinced that the hull has been properly sanded/ faired.  Waiting until the model is more finished risks damaging fragile parts.

 

Roger

 

The fingers are more reliable "blemish detectors" than the eyes in any event. If it feels smooth, it is smooth. Sealing wood with shellac prior to a final fine-grit sanding, and then the use of a tack rag before painting, will go a long way to avoiding specks and blemishes that the eye cannot detect.

[Roger Pellett]

I use my fingers too.  But I still find a sacrificial coat of paint, preferably white to be useful.  It also highlights minor damage that may occur later in construction.

 

Roger