Historical Fantasy. Oh, and Heresy.

[Gazzarian]

Hello. I appreciate that this is probably the wrong site, and most certainly the wrong forum, to raise this but as none of you know where I live.... If you're a historical purist look away now. But if your imagination can help me then please read on. 

 

I'm embarking on a build of the Vanguard kit of the British naval cutter Alert. It looks very pretty and about the right level of experience required for me. But, the thing is...it has guns. I don't like guns. So, in my deranged imagination, what I'm thinking is that it - or a sister ship it could be, really - wasn't lost at sea in 1779 or whatever but was bought from the Admiralty as surplus to requirements by a wealthy naturalist. (Think Maturin and the Surprise, kind of, a bit.). So while the Brits and the French etc were busy creating widows, he was pottering round the Scottish islands, Norwegian fjords and so on looking at gannets eggs or whatever these people do. Having fun with luscious Lapp ladies and road testing aquavit. Whatever.

 

What would the cutter look like after he'd civilianised it? Clearly the gun ports would be made back into continuous bulwarks. (There is a scene in the fantastic book This Thing of Darkness where the Beagle almost founders because in his refit Capt Fitzroy has raised the bulwarks and when it takes on board a massive green sea the master can't open the gun ports, jammed solid through lack of use, to let the water off the deck.) So that's a thought. As also recounted in the Fitzroy / Darwin novel (did I mention it's brilliant?) the Beagle needed lots of boats, for its surveying duties but also so that Maturin - whoops, sorry, Darwin - could go and collect crabs and spiders. . So our civilianised Alert will need at least one. Maybe a 16' or similar on stern davits?

 

Would a civilian owner using it for these purposes add a little house on the deck, or some additional skylights? Obviously there would be a lot more room on board as she wouldn't need to carry gun crews. But the owner is a wealthy guy and will like his comforts. Also something to impress the Lapp ladies, perhaps. 

 

What do you think? 

[Tony Hunt]

Hi Gaz

 

Can I suggest you take a look at the thread by iMustBeCrazy about the (slightly later) RN cutter Lapwing of 1816. One of LAPWING's sisters, BRAMBLE, became a survey ship in the South Pacific, and the thread has several paintings of her in that role. It looks like BRAMBLE doesn't carry guns, although she still has the gunports. They pictures might provide some inspiration?  The story is halfway to the one you propose (which I really like, btw, shades of Bill Tilman explorations sailing Bristol Channel pilot cutters, many years later).

 

[Gazzarian]

Tony that is totally fantastic. Thank you! I will look for that  thread. And your plans look amazing. I am awed by replications of actual framing, and although i shouldn't walk before I can toddle I might have long term aspirations.... Thank you again for an incredibly helpful reply, I really appreciate it.

[Chuck Seiler]

1 hour ago, Gazzarian said:

the master can't open the gun ports, jammed solid through lack of use, to let the water off the deck.)

That's what scuppers are for.

[Gazzarian]

1 minute ago, Chuck Seiler said:

That's what scuppers are for.

I don't think they were adequate for the deluge. I'm going to attempt to put a link to Harry Thompson's book.

 

https://www.amazon.co.uk/This-Thing-Darkness-Harry-Thompson/dp/0755302818/ref=sr_1_1?adgrpid=100884600622&dchild=1&gclid=CjwKCAjwn9v7BRBqEiwAbq1EywQzEVqDCKh0TugvkX7CfMoeRCk4mbm6LBmjGBxrQHZXERAwNzYqPBoCpvMQAvD_BwE&hvadid=445797441300&hvdev=c&hvlocphy=9046008&hvnetw=g&hvqmt=e&hvrand=4850461530939432838&hvtargid=kwd-314975292366&hydadcr=24431_1748949&keywords='this+thing+of+darkness'&qid=1601701234&s=books&sr=1-1&tag=googhydr-21

[Tony Hunt]

1 hour ago, Gazzarian said:

Tony that is totally fantastic. Thank you! I will look for that  thread. And your plans look amazing. I am awed by replications of actual framing, and although i shouldn't walk before I can toddle I might have long term aspirations.... Thank you again for an incredibly helpful reply, I really appreciate it.

Not my plans, they're done by the thread originator, iMustBeCrazy. I agree they're fantastic, I wish I had those skills!

[ccoyle]

It was not uncommon, even well into the 20th century, for civilian ships to be taken into military service and vice versa. The naval cutter design began life as a smuggler before being adopted by various navies for inshore duties. It would not surprise me at all if one were sold out of the service for a second career.

[Chuck Seiler]

12 hours ago, Gazzarian said:

I don't think they were adequate for the deluge

 

[knightyo]

 

How about a model which wasn't designed for guns in the first place?   Below is a photo from one of Chuck's threads regarding a Boyer.  These are beautiful vessels!

 

Alan

 

 

 

 

 

[Roger Pellett]

Chris is right on!  The cutter is an indigenous British watercraft.  Cutters were used for coastal trade, smuggling, pilot service, and became the basis for the famous plank on edge yachts in the late 1800’s.

 

In the early 1800’s cutters were apparently everywhere around the British Isle’s and were illustrated by contemporary British Artists.  If you go on the web, you should be able to find dozens of paintings of British coastal shipping that include cutters. 

 

With the exception of smugglers, cutters intended for non-naval use would not be as heavily rigged.  Steele provides instructions for rigging cutters.  A full volume of Steel’s work is quite expensive, but less expensive reprints of the “Masting, Rigging, and Sailmaking are available.

 

Roger

 

 

[iMustBeCrazy]

15 hours ago, Tony Hunt said:

I wish I had those skills!

I wish I had the skills you think I have

 

6 hours ago, ccoyle said:

It would not surprise me at all if one were sold out of the service for a second career.

The Lapwing proves your point, launched in 1816 as a Revenue Cutter, sailed to Australia in 1853 under private ownership carrying the new owner and family to Adelaide before being sold and used as a cargo vessel. Wrecked in 1856 after the Harbour Master had a larger vessel hooked to the same mooring which later dragged beaching both ships. The Lapwing broached and was destroyed.

 

17 hours ago, Gazzarian said:

Would a civilian owner using it for these purposes add a little house on the deck, or some additional skylights? Obviously there would be a lot more room on board as she wouldn't need to carry gun crews. But the owner is a wealthy guy and will like his comforts. Also something to impress the Lapp ladies, perhaps. 

 

What do you think? 

It would depend (sorry). I doubt there would be 'a lot more room', I think less crowded would explain it better. It would also vary with the size of the vessel.

 

I've seen documents showing Revenue Cutter crew estimates varying from 30 to 60 and I have no idea how you would squeeze 60 into the Lapwing.

 

On the voyage to Australia she had something like:

 

Owner (and perhaps Master but I doubt it)

Owners wife (just a guess as no wife is mentioned)

Owners daughters (2)

Owners servants (2) (but daughters may have been mistaken for servants)

Paying 1st class passenger (1)

Master

Masters mates (2)

Bosun

Bosuns mate

Helmsmen (2)

Cook

Carpenter?

Other crew (12+)

 

The above from the Bosun down is pretty much a guess.

 

The run to Australia was pretty slow given that other vessels reported her as 'flying' so I'm guessing she stopped for a bit of tourism in Cape Verde and Cape Town.

[Gazzarian]

Thank you so much folks. These comments are really helpful and encouraging. Alan that is a pretty vessel, something kind of Viking-esue in the planking at the stem. Intriguing. Chuck thanks for posting the pic of the scuppers, something I shall copy I think. I had wondered about that. Craig yes indeed, you must be right to say 'less crowded'. Apparently the Alert's crew went up to 80 or so after she was equipped with more guns. I can't imagine! Roger that's very interesting re the rigging, hadn't even thought of that. And of course it will be a while before I will get to that! But I will follow up on your suggestion.

 

Again all these comments are encouraging and helpful and I am very grateful to you for posting them.