Flying Fish by gak1965 - FINISHED - Model Shipways - 1:96

[Vladimir_Wairoa]

I also believe its overhang George. cant be otherwise. V .

[ClipperFan]

gak1965

I'm friends with Vladimir & just stumbled on your impressive build.

I hope you don't mind my sticking my 2c in but I might have some fascinating historical information to enlighten you about the amazing accomplishment of the Clipper "Flying Fish" you're currently building. Being a Scottish Immigrant from Nova Scotia, Donald McKay was very conservative and remarkably consistent in his paint schemes for his Clipper Ships to the point of being boring. Non other than Duncsn MacLean, the Boston Daily News publicist even made a jocular observation that all of McKay's Clippers, like Clergy came in Black. There are others that were painted quite differently. For instance the fast Clipper "Galatea" which had a distinctive full running thoroughbred painted on her fore topsail, was painted deep Sea Bronze. Of course it's your vessel, you can paint her as you choose but I thought you might appreciate knowing something about the Historic nature of this particular McKay Extreme Clipper. I've attached a gorgeous painting done by the famous contemporary artist James Buttersworth commissioned by the Ship's owners to celebrate this McKay vessel's triumphant win in the "Great Deep Sea Derby".

The painting confirms that, like "GLORY of the SEAS" where we actually have photographic proof, the large rear cabin does indeed overhang about 3' from the rear poop deck. The painting also verifies that the rear of the cabin is flat, not curved. Another fascinating detail is her sea bronze & gold trimmed flying fish figurehead. It is most likely smaller than the kit supplied version. If you observe closely, you can see it is apparently embossed on the vessel's Cutwater which mounts over the stem. The beautiful model kit much like "Flying Cloud" seems to include only the Stem not the Cutwater which mounts over it. Since these Clippers were built to take on the heavy seas of Cape Horn, Donald McKay made the Bow extremely rugged. This arrangement makes for a much more stable and graceful Bow than the rather awkward way the figurehead is sort of tacked on with nothing to support it. 

 

https://www.vallejogallery.com/item_mobile.php?page=item_page&id=487#lg=1&slide=4

[gak1965]

On 7/10/2021 at 3:16 PM, ClipperFan said:

gak1965

I'm friends with Vladimir & just stumbled on your impressive build.

I hope you don't mind my sticking my 2c in but I might have some fascinating historical information to enlighten you about the amazing accomplishment of the Clipper "Flying Fish" you're currently building. Being a Scottish Immigrant from Nova Scotia, Donald McKay was very conservative and remarkably consistent in his paint schemes for his Clipper Ships to the point of being boring. Non other than Duncsn MacLean, the Boston Daily News publicist even made a jocular observation that all of McKay's Clippers, like Clergy came in Black. There are others that were painted quite differently. For instance the fast Clipper "Galatea" which had a distinctive full running thoroughbred painted on her fore topsail, was painted deep Sea Bronze. Of course it's your vessel, you can paint her as you choose but I thought you might appreciate knowing something about the Historic nature of this particular McKay Extreme Clipper. I've attached a gorgeous painting done by the famous contemporary artist James Buttersworth commissioned by the Ship's owners to celebrate this McKay vessel's triumphant win in the "Great Deep Sea Derby".

The painting confirms that, like "GLORY of the SEAS" where we actually have photographic proof, the large rear cabin does indeed overhang about 3' from the rear poop deck. The painting also verifies that the rear of the cabin is flat, not curved. Another fascinating detail is her sea bronze & gold trimmed flying fish figurehead. It is most likely smaller than the kit supplied version. If you observe closely, you can see it is apparently embossed on the vessel's Cutwater which mounts over the stem. The beautiful model kit much like "Flying Cloud" seems to include only the Stem not the Cutwater which mounts over it. Since these Clippers were built to take on the heavy seas of Cape Horn, Donald McKay made the Bow extremely rugged. This arrangement makes for a much more stable and graceful Bow than the rather awkward way the figurehead is sort of tacked on with nothing to support it. 

 

https://www.vallejogallery.com/item_mobile.php?page=item_page&id=487#lg=1&slide=4

 

 

ClipperFan,

    The included picture (and the others at the link) are a great set of photos related to the Fish. FWIW, the idea to paint the ship green came from Stephen Ujifusa's book Barons of the Sea and their race to build the world's fastest clipper ship. In the book, he relates that McKay had wanted to paint the ship green, obviously this was not translated into life, but I decided to try to build it the way McKay had originally envisioned. The biggest problem now is that it appears VentureTape which is the major supplier of copper and brass foil tape to the stained glass community has stopped making the brass variant. Since the Fish had Muntz metal rather than copper plates, I was hoping to use that. I have heard of people painting the copper with metallic paint to get the Muntz look, but not sure I'm going to bother as I wonder about the longevity of the painted copper.

 

     The Model Shipways plans shows a flat surface on the after end of the stern cabin, with slightly curved port and starboard sides so that would seem to be compatible with your observations. Your observation about the cutwater is interesting. I'll have to see if there are any references that show the cutwater clearly enough to add it to the stem.

 

Thanks for the insights!

 

George

[rwiederrich]

George….. I painted the bright copper on my 1/128 scale Great Republic with metallic paint.  I then covered that with a sealer dull coat to preserve it.   No issues and the most important point is I replicated the muntz metal weathered appearance.  The technique requires some faith and nerve.   But it’s worth the accuracy.     Good luck in what you decide. 

[gak1965]

38 minutes ago, rwiederrich said:

George….. I painted the bright copper on my 1/128 scale Great Republic with metallic paint.  I then covered that with a sealer dull coat to preserve it.   No issues and the most important point is I replicated the muntz metal weathered appearance.  The technique requires some faith and nerve.   But it’s worth the accuracy.     Good luck in what you decide. 

 

Good to know. What paint did you use? And did you use the regular VentureTape or some other brand? I'm already thinking of replacing the 1/4 inch foil in the kit (which implies a plate that is 24 inches tall) with  either 3/16 which scales out to 18 inches, or 5/32 foil (15 inches). You can go as low as 1/8 (12 scale inches) but that seems really difficult to work with. My recollection looking at one of your previous builds suggests that 14 inches tall is pretty "standard" for a plate. I also haven't decided exactly what to do about the 'nails'. Walking under the Cutty Sark, the nails did not present as obvious as they tend to in models. I tend to agree with the argument that you previous made that at 1:96 almost any visible nail is way out of scale (although attractive). Even a one inch nailhead (bigger than they actually are, I'm pretty sure) would be about 0.26 mm. I liked your idea for using the screen to create the 'plates' but would need to find something else to replicate it.

 

Apparently the brass tape doesn't solder as well as the copper, so there wasn't much demand for it in the stained glass world. I was hoping that I might be able to get some old stock from a place here where my younger daughter learned to do SG, but they don't appear to have any. The only place online I can still see a listing for it shows it as out of stock. 

 

Regardless, I need to make up my mind soon. I've almost finished planking the poop, once that is done, it's time to drill and install the vents, put the topgallant rail in place and deal with the coppering/muntz(?)ing.

[gak1965]

Oh, and a palate cleanser. I was in New York City to race the NYC triathlon over the weekend. Here are two photos of Wavertree that I took while I was there. Built 1885 in Southampton and, according to Wikipedia, one of the last ships built out of wrought iron. Love those clipper bows.

 

George K

 

,

[rwiederrich]

6 hours ago, gak1965 said:

 

Good to know. What paint did you use? And did you use the regular VentureTape or some other brand? I'm already thinking of replacing the 1/4 inch foil in the kit (which implies a plate that is 24 inches tall) with  either 3/16 which scales out to 18 inches, or 5/32 foil (15 inches). You can go as low as 1/8 (12 scale inches) but that seems really difficult to work with. My recollection looking at one of your previous builds suggests that 14 inches tall is pretty "standard" for a plate. I also haven't decided exactly what to do about the 'nails'. Walking under the Cutty Sark, the nails did not present as obvious as they tend to in models. I tend to agree with the argument that you previous made that at 1:96 almost any visible nail is way out of scale (although attractive). Even a one inch nailhead (bigger than they actually are, I'm pretty sure) would be about 0.26 mm. I liked your idea for using the screen to create the 'plates' but would need to find something else to replicate it.

 

Apparently the brass tape doesn't solder as well as the copper, so there wasn't much demand for it in the stained glass world. I was hoping that I might be able to get some old stock from a place here where my younger daughter learned to do SG, but they don't appear to have any. The only place online I can still see a listing for it shows it as out of stock. 

 

Regardless, I need to make up my mind soon. I've almost finished planking the poop, once that is done, it's time to drill and install the vents, put the topgallant rail in place and deal with the coppering/muntz(?)ing.

George...if I recall it was a Crylon paint.  There are several metallic shades I think. I used simple painters blue masking tape.  I'm sure you have visited my Great Republic log and seen my process.  If at all possible that you can find a roller similar to what I have...you can produce embossed lengths of tape in short order.  You might be able to Google search for a similar rubber clothes roller.  search your hardware store for the correct mesh wire fence material and get some drywall sanding pads.  Follow my process and Bam........you can save hundreds of dollars.

I have been following your log and gleaning from it to initially build my Glory of the Seas.  Vladimir copied the bulkhead style...so I just followed your construction process for the waterways and planking.  I'm now ready to add the topgallant(Monkey rail) cap.to the stern.  As usual, I'm always sanding and filling the hull.

 

Thanks for your build log and your questions.

 

Rob

[ClipperFan]

16 hours ago, gak1965 said:

 

ClipperFan,

    The included picture (and the others at the link) are a great set of photos related to the Fish. FWIW, the idea to paint the ship green came from Stephen Ujifusa's book Barons of the Sea and their race to build the world's fastest clipper ship. In the book, he relates that McKay had wanted to paint the ship green, obviously this was not translated into life, but I decided to try to build it the way McKay had originally envisioned. The biggest problem now is that it appears VentureTape which is the major supplier of copper and brass foil tape to the stained glass community has stopped making the brass variant. Since the Fish had Muntz metal rather than copper plates, I was hoping to use that. I have heard of people painting the copper with metallic paint to get the Muntz look, but not sure I'm going to bother as I wonder about the longevity of the painted copper.

 

     The Model Shipways plans shows a flat surface on the after end of the stern cabin, with slightly curved port and starboard sides so that would seem to be compatible with your observations. Your observation about the cutwater is interesting. I'll have to see if there are any references that show the cutwater clearly enough to add it to the stem.

 

Thanks for the insights!

 

George

gak1965 thanks for sharing something new with me. I never read the book you mentioned. It comes as a complete surprise that McKay originally considered painting "Flying Fish" green. Perhaps that's why Duncan MacLean made the wry observation that like Clergy, Clippers always come in Black. 

As for the Cutwater, that's a nautical device that always mounts on the Stem. Unfortunately, while this is an impressive kit which builds into a beautiful model, I believe the Bow is inaccurate. A figurehead tacked on with nothing to support it would be lost with the first wave. Better to have it incorporated into the end of the Cutwater, which is how Buttersworth has depicted her.

[gak1965]

A very brief update. I've completed the poop deck, and added the doubler for the capstan on forecastle. Next up, the coamings for the extension of the after deckhouse and the vents. The deckhouse extension coamings are the only ones that are sitting on the deck, rather than having the decks butt up against them. I didn't want to have to deal with maintaining the camber of the deck given where the coamings would be sitting on the bulkheads, but I think that I could have probably done it in retrospect. Something for the next build I suppose. A couple of pics, and as always, thanks for looking in.

 

George

Edited July 17, 2021 by gak1965

[rwiederrich]

Wonderful job.......

 

Rob

[gak1965]

1 hour ago, rwiederrich said:

Wonderful job.......

 

Rob

Thanks!

[Vladimir_Wairoa]

15 hours ago, gak1965 said:

A very brief update. I've completed the poop deck, and added the doubler for the capstan on forecastle. Next up, the coamings for the extension of the after deckhouse and the vents. The deckhouse extension vents are the only ones that are sitting on the deck, rather than having the decks butt up against them. I didn't want to have to deal with maintaining the camber of the deck given where the coamings would be sitting on the bulkheads, but I think that I could have probably done it in retrospect. Something for the next build I suppose. A couple of pics, and as always, thanks for looking in.

 

George

very nice indeed George. 

[BobG]

Gorgeous, gak!

[gak1965]

Thank you all for the compliments. I've added the topgallant rail. I added in a couple of extra ribs by where the entry ports sit to stabilize the bulwarks, and then cut open the entry ports. 

 

I then added the side boards on the entry ports and added started putting the topgallant rail on. The aft section was carved out of a section from a 1/16 by 4 by 24 inch basswood, the rest were made directly from 1/16 by 1/8 basswood strips, The section from the stern to the entry ports required no pre-bending, but I soaked and pre-bent the sections from the entry ports to the forecastle and the sections over the forecastle. After they dried, I stained and attached them in place. Some photos below:

 

 

Incidentally, the piece of wood behind the aft most coaming is one of the side boards that I dropped, and could not find and had to remake. After taking these pictures and noticing it, I removed it.

 

Next, one more coaming for the after deckhouse on the main deck and then it is time to start putting on copper/muntz plates.

 

Thanks again for looking in.

 

George K.

[Vladimir_Wairoa]

9 hours ago, gak1965 said:

Thank you all for the compliments. I've added the topgallant rail. I added in a couple of extra ribs by where the entry ports sit to stabilize the bulwarks, and then cut open the entry ports. 

 

I then added the side boards on the entry ports and added started putting the topgallant rail on. The aft section was carved out of a section from a 1/16 by 4 by 24 inch basswood, the rest were made directly from 1/16 by 1/8 basswood strips, The section from the stern to the entry ports required no pre-bending, but I soaked and pre-bent the sections from the entry ports to the forecastle and the sections over the forecastle. After they dried, I stained and attached them in place. Some photos below:

 

 

Incidentally, the piece of wood behind the aft most coaming is one of the side boards that I dropped, and could not find and had to remake. After taking these pictures and noticing it, I removed it.

 

Next, one more coaming for the after deckhouse on the main deck and then it is time to start putting on copper/muntz plates.

 

Thanks again for looking in.

 

George K.

very nice with rail George. now Im looking fwd to copper plates installation process. 

V. 

 

[ClipperFan]

George K this is a beautiful vessel you're crafting. First rate work. I'm constantly in awe of the woodworking abilities you and others display in these build logs. It's artisan craftsmanship at it's best!

 

Here's some fascinating trivia that you might not know. Captain Simeon Jones, who was the Captain of "Flying Fish" had a Greek Revival Home he named "Longacre" built for himself in 1860, at 490 Main Street, Centerville, MA suburb of Barnstable near Hyannis. It's still standing there today.

Why I mention it, is because the front fence is supposed to be made up of turned rails which originally came from the Clipper "Flying Fish" herself.

Edited August 1, 2021 by ClipperFan
additional information

[gak1965]

On 8/1/2021 at 12:21 PM, ClipperFan said:

George K this is a beautiful vessel you're crafting. First rate work. I'm constantly in awe of the woodworking abilities you and others display in these build logs. It's artisan craftsmanship at it's best!

 

Here's some fascinating trivia that you might not know. Captain Simeon Jones, who was the Captain of "Flying Fish" had a Greek Revival Home he named "Longacre" built for himself in 1860, at 490 Main Street, Centerville, MA suburb of Barnstable near Hyannis. It's still standing there today.

Why I mention it, is because the front fence is supposed to be made up of turned rails which originally came from the Clipper "Flying Fish" herself.

 

Thanks for the vote of confidence!

 

It's been years since I've been out to Hyannis but next time I do, I'll have to stop by.

 

In a similar vein, you may be aware of Chesapeake Mill in England (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chesapeake_Mill) that was partially constructed with timbers from HMS Chesapeake, formerly USS Chesapeake.

[ClipperFan]

George, thanks for letting me know about the ultimate fate of the USS Chesapeake. Ironic that they flew a flag saying "Don't Give Up the Ship!" Unfortunately they were ill prepared for the British Captain of HMS Shannon which easily tore them to pieces...

[gak1965]

Well, broke down and started working on the copper. Ultimately decided to go with the unadorned look given the scale. These are the tests with some 1/4 inch copper that isn't going onto the ship. The plates were made in my extremely high tech plate making apparatus, made from a bit of wood scrap and a pizza cutter. I used that to score the tape, which is then cut out into 6 plate sections. A sample section from a bit of damaged tape also shown. These plates at scale are 24" by 48", correct length, incorrect height. As you will see, the tape itself seems to have a bit of a raised edge, which I think can usefully serve as approximating a line of nails which would be about 0.4 mm wide at scale.

 

 

I put together a couple of experiments below, the top rows were scored on the back, yielding a raised edge between the plates, and the bottom set were scored on the top of the plate. Both produce a pleasing effect, but I think that I will go with the variant with embossed from above as the plates seem more "separate" to me.

 

 

I started from the bottom, and got better at applying the six plate segments as I progressed, so the top set is a lot cleaner looking (and the top row of the lower sections is better looking than the bottom two rows). The key is to hold the end of the strip down and peel off the paper backing without letting it curl up. Although I am going to use 3/16 tape on the ship, I may use some of the 1/4 to copper the keel, as it will fully cover it and allow cleaner overlaps than the 3/16 segments will (and it will allow me to get some value from the kit tape).

 

As always, thanks for looking in.

 

George K.

 

 

 

[Vladimir_Wairoa]

11 hours ago, gak1965 said:

Well, broke down and started working on the copper. Ultimately decided to go with the unadorned look given the scale. These are the tests with some 1/4 inch copper that isn't going onto the ship. The plates were made in my extremely high tech plate making apparatus, made from a bit of wood scrap and a pizza cutter. I used that to score the tape, which is then cut out into 6 plate sections. A sample section from a bit of damaged tape also shown. These plates at scale are 24" by 48", correct length, incorrect height. As you will see, the tape itself seems to have a bit of a raised edge, which I think can usefully serve as approximating a line of nails which would be about 0.4 mm wide at scale.

 

 

I put together a couple of experiments below, the top rows were scored on the back, yielding a raised edge between the plates, and the bottom set were scored on the top of the plate. Both produce a pleasing effect, but I think that I will go with the variant with embossed from above as the plates seem more "separate" to me.

 

 

I started from the bottom, and got better at applying the six plate segments as I progressed, so the top set is a lot cleaner looking (and the top row of the lower sections is better looking than the bottom two rows). The key is to hold the end of the strip down and peel off the paper backing without letting it curl up. Although I am going to use 3/16 tape on the ship, I may use some of the 1/4 to copper the keel, as it will fully cover it and allow cleaner overlaps than the 3/16 segments will (and it will allow me to get some value from the kit tape).

 

As always, thanks for looking in.

 

George K.

 

 

 

great idea George. I wish you patience and firm nerves.  but outcome will compensate the effort. V. 

[ClipperFan]

George, placing tiny scale flat plates on a curving surface has got to tax your patience for sure. I don't envy you but the results of such practiced tedium will certainly be worth it.

Edited August 9, 2021 by ClipperFan
Grammar correction

[rwiederrich]

And so it begins.  Great start George.

 

Rob

[gak1965]

Very brief progress update. I decided to use the 1/4 inch copper tape to cover the keel. The picture below shows the jig I made to mark the plates for cutting. The individual plates are 9/32 long, are scored with a pizza cutter.

 

The individual plates were cut out and applied in 1/4 inch segments to the keel as below. I allowed the plates to flow onto the hull since they would be covered up by the regular plates later.

 

 

Once that was complete, I made another jig that feeds two 3/16 rolls of copper tape and has two guides for the pizza cutter so that I can make 4 plates at a time, pull it through, make two more plates, etc. as seen below. The 'plates' are 3/16 by 1/2, or at 1:96 they are 18 by 48 inches. That makes them a little taller than the 14 by 48 inch plates that are called for in the plans, but I question my ability to manipulate anything smaller.

 

 

Finally I cut 6 plate segments and start laying out the regular plate segments, starting at the stern and aligning against the keel. The picture below shows two incomplete rows on the starboard side, but you get the basic idea. I am using the self-adhesive, rather than using Rob's method of gluing the paper backed tape. It seems to be working okay, although I definitely get more 'scrunching' than Rob's method produces. 

 

 

Once I get a little further, I'll mark the gore line with Tamiya tape so that I know where to stop. I expect that this is going to take a while, but it's more about perseverance at this point - kinda like making ratlines. As you can see, I've gone for the simple look, with the plate divisions marked by using the pizza cutter on the visible, rather than the paper backing side. This produces plate separators that are lowered rather than raised, and is a bit less obvious, but still definitely there. I am also going to suggest that the imperfections in the plate laying are giving it the surface interest that is usually formed as a result of the nailing. In any case, that is my story and I'm sticking with it.

 

Thanks for looking in!

 

George K

[rwiederrich]

George, two notes I would like to point out on my first copper job on the Great Republic I used adhesive to glue the tiles of tape down with their backing in tact but with the Glory of the Seas I remove the foil from the backing and stuck it directly to the hall. 
 

Great start,

 

Rob

[gak1965]

On 8/19/2021 at 6:13 PM, rwiederrich said:

George, two notes I would like to point out on my first copper job on the Great Republic I used adhesive to glue the tiles of tape down with their backing in tact but with the Glory of the Seas I remove the foil from the backing and stuck it directly to the hall. 
 

Great start,

 

Rob

Good to know. It seems to be working so far...

[gak1965]

Just a brief update, as we are about to go on vacation and then I need to return one of my children to college, so no updates for a couple of weeks. 

 

Coppering is proceeding apace, but even at 6 tiles per segment, I still have a way to go. The yellow Tamiya tape represents the first line of plates in the second belt (i.e. the bottom of the tape - or rather the top of the tape in these pictures) represents the gore line.

 

 

Stay safe out there, and thanks for looking in and the well wishes.

 

George K

[Vladimir_Wairoa]

very nice George. 

[Jared]

Your model is coming along very nicely. 

[ClipperFan]

George K, I like your clever approach setting up a jig & using a pizza cutter to simulate the ends of each copper tile. Your beautiful results speak for themselves. I'm curious about another nautical term that I'm unfamiliar with. It appears your yellow Tamiya tape is well below the Waterline. My guess is that it represents the "gore" line. What exactly is the significance of the gore line?

[rwiederrich]

14 minutes ago, ClipperFan said:

George K, I like your clever approach setting up a jig & using a pizza cutter to simulate the ends of each copper tile. Your beautiful results speak for themselves. I'm curious about another nautical term that I'm unfamiliar with. It appears your yellow Tamiya tape is well below the Waterline. My guess is that it represents the "gore" line. What exactly is the significance of the gore line?

Directional change of the plates...from oblate oblong to more of a straight line curve....if that makes sense?

 

Rob

Edited August 24, 2021 by rwiederrich