USS Constitution by Avi - BlueJacket Shipcrafters - 1:96

[Avi]

Happy New Year to everyone!

 

I’ve spent a few days on this, and I’m stumped. How do I reconcile all of the above? Even if I’m willing to cut a little of the planks above the gundeck gunports, so they’re flush with the bottom of the spardeck waterways, that would leave nowhere on the bulkhead for the lodging knees to attach. 
 

There are issues both exterior and interior, both top and bottom, both gundeck gunports and spardeck gunports. 
 

I imagine if I spent many years building ships, I’d know how to do this right the first time around, but I need to figure out my ship for now. 
 

I’m very open to suggestions. 

[VTHokiEE]

A few thoughts, have you mocked up any cannons to see what they would look like through the ports? Maybe it is possible to cover both inside and out without having a significant issue? Does the kit have port lids? Maybe these ports could be closed to cover the issue as well? Finally, with so many ports these issues will mainly be known to you so I would compose a path that doesn’t significantly impact the rest of the build (you mentioned one path creating issues with the knees later so maybe that is not a good fix).

 

Hopefully there is something of value in these thoughts and good luck!

[Avi]

There are some good ideas in there @VTHokiEE

It does have lids, but I planned to leave them open with the guns run out. 

 

I particularly like mocking up a cannon or two to place them and see. Maybe I’ll do that and see where I can afford to cut or fill in a bit more. 
 

 

[Avi]

Going to ping a few folks here, hoping they have suggestions. Would appreciate input from @KHauptfuehrer @jfinan @MrBlueJacket

 

My two open questions are:

1. How to adjust the planking per the above. 
2. I’m close to ready to copper. What glue should I use? I see all of the warnings about CA causing it to oxidize quickly, which I want to avoid over the months I apply the sheets. 

[MrBlueJacket]

For your planking issue, I would opt for your solution "A" - More important that the openings are even looking than the plank count.

 

Coppering - Basically there are 4 options:

1-epoxy - messy

2- contact cement - good, but no chance of error in applying

3- silicone gel - good, but plates can slip until the glue hardens

4-CA thin- put the plate in place, put a drop at the edge and let it wick in

4-CA medium - put drop on the plate, and quickly get it into position ( you'll have maybe 3-5 seconds)

4-CA thick - put drop on the plate, and you will have some time to move it around. once in place, a shot of accdellerator fixes it.

 

Hope this helps you.

 

Nic

 

 

[mort stoll]

I've always used contact cement along with adequate ventilation.  My reasoning is that the plates can be cleaned if necessary with acetone. When applied to the hull you have about 15-30 seconds to adjust them.  Once dry should they need to be readjusted they can easily be so by heating them with a soldering iron.

Keep up the great work.

[KurtH]

I used Weldbond which was recommended in the instructions.  I do not recommend it.  I found that it oozed out around the edges.  At first it looked fine.  The excess glue was invisible until I applied  poly, which was also recommended in the instructions.  This turned the excess glue black, making a heck of a mess!  I ultimately solved the situation by applying copper liquid leaf over the entire coppered area.  This has made a very durable unchanging finish which I like.  I know this is only a negative recommendation, but since it is in the instructions, I thought I had better alert you to the pitfalls therein just in case you were considering it.   Incidentally, copper liquid leaf is no longer available.  I'll say this for the Weldbond though - it has held up well to a lot of handling as I have worked on my model.  No plates have come loose.

Your planking looks right to me.  It look like a little neatening up of the gun ports with a file and a bit of filler here and there will do the trick.   Do you plan to install linings?  I did not, but perhaps I should have.  According to the booklet, there was a time when the gun port lids were fastened in place with sliding bolts when the guns were stowed, then taken in and stored when the guns were run out.  I would say you have a choice as to whether to have them on hinges with lanyards, or just omit them.

Nice work on a very challenging kit!!

Edited January 7, 2023 by KHauptfuehrer

[Brian Falke]

Avi, I have no recommendation with regards to coppering as I have not gotten to that point yet.  But, I do appreciate you asking the question and @MrBlueJacket (Nic's) response.

 

On to your initial question regarding the planking creeping up into the gunport or sagging down into.  I just started the interior planking, so again, thanks for the insight.  If I were to face this dilemma, I would trim (sand) the plank sagging down into the gunport and fill in at the bottom.  My thinking is that once complete, it will be very difficult to view the planks at the top since the spar deck will be hiding that from view for the most part.  And filling in at the bottom still leaves you with the option of sanding it down so that the gun is properly centered when run out.

 

I do like the idea of building a mock gun.  With that it would give you and idea if you need to fill in or trim the planking at the top or bottom instead of guessing.

 

Brian

[Avi]

Thank you all for the detailed feedback and suggestions. 

 

Based on the above, I am going to trim the ports, but try to leave at least a little in place, filling in with filler where necessary and sanding down. That should give it a smooth look. I will put together a quick long gun, just to see how each port works out.

 

In terms of coppering, based on @KHauptfuehrer's report (and the difficulty in getting Weldbond here, not to mention getting copperleaf anywhere), I am going to avoid Weldbond.

 

Contact cement is a bit of a challenge, as ventilation is fine where I work (great when I work outside in the summer). I think CA may be my best bet, especially as I have lots of it: thin, medium and thick. 

 

@MrBlueJacket what did you mean by letting it wick in? I would have imagine a single drop at the edge would stay there? Or is it so thin that it just travels along? My mainstay has been medium, although I have used thick when needed to good effect. For example, at the very tops of the bulwarks, there were a few places where I would have had to made the planks too thin for my taste to have them flush with the top of the carved hull. Instead, I let them extend above - the bond from medium CA below was quite weak - and then filled in the gap with thick CA and a spray of accelerator. Once it hardened, it was perfect.

 

Also, in terms of accelerator, the stuff I have comes in a spray bottle. Do you apply it differently? 

 

Finally, does CA glue have the same problem with blackening that @KHauptfuehrer raised with Weldbond?

 

For my plans, rather than poly on top of the copper, I have Renaissance Wax, which is supposed to do a great job preventing oxidizing and the copper turning green. I do want to be sure it doesn't react with whatever glue I use.

[MrBlueJacket]

4 hours ago, Avi said:

@MrBlueJacket what did you mean by letting it wick in? I would have imagine a single drop at the edge would stay there? Or is it so thin that it just travels along?

 

Also, in terms of accelerator, the stuff I have comes in a spray bottle. Do you apply it differently? 

 

Finally, does CA glue have the same problem with blackening that @KHauptfuehrer raised with Weldbond?

 

 

To answer your 3 questions:

 

The thin CA is the consistency of rubbing alcohol, and indeed will run along and into the copper/wood interface.

Yes, accelerator in a spray bottle.

CA will not change the color of the copper.  but if you get it on the front, you can see it same as any glue spot.

 

Nic

[Avi]

11 minutes ago, MrBlueJacket said:

To answer your 3 questions:

 

The thin CA is the consistency of rubbing alcohol, and indeed will run along and into the copper/wood interface.

Yes, accelerator in a spray bottle.

CA will not change the color of the copper.  but if you get it on the front, you can see it same as any glue spot.

 

Nic

Will the glue itself react with the wax to discolour?

does the concern with the leak lead to a preference for one kind or another?

[MrBlueJacket]

I  have no experience with a wax overcoat. I don't understand "concern with the leak"

 

Nic

[Avi]

7 hours ago, MrBlueJacket said:

I  have no experience with a wax overcoat. I don't understand "concern with the leak"

 

Nic

Leak of glue from under the plate to outside. 

[MrBlueJacket]

A leak would only happen if too much glue was applied. You can experiment with a scrap of wood to get the feel for how much to use.

 

Nic

[Avi]

I cut out the excess from the gunports, sanded them somewhat. Then on to sanding the bulwarks and the planking outside the ship. The whole thing. I used 120, then 220, then 400. A picture of it is below. It’s amazing to feel what it is like when smooth! In some places I left a little texture around the gunports. I didn’t want the planking to disappear entirely.

 

 

Next steps are marking the waterline, and painting the planks. Topsides will be black with the white gunport stripe (or maybe ochre; TBD). Below the waterline will be copper colour. 
 

In terms of topside, I’m still undecided between painting (sealer on the planks followed by paint), or staining (paint directly on the planks). I suspect the staining will bring out the wood better, but am unsure. So I ran an experiment. I took a piece of cardboard, glued (with CA, same as on the ship) five pieces of planking on left and five on right. I then sealed one set but not the other. When the sealer is dry, I’ll paint both black, and then I can compare and see. 

[Avi]

I forgot that sealer raises the grain. If I seal before painting, am I going to need to sand again?

[Avi]

I sanded the sample after sealing, then painted both. First coat a few minutes drying, then second coat. 
 

to be honest, I’m not excited about either. The stained one is nicer… except where it didn’t take. My guess is that that is where the CA seeped into the pores from the bottom enough to prevent the paint from getting through from the top. 
 

the sealer just doesn’t look great. 
 

I might just need to prime and then paint, but I really was hoping not to. 
 

[ERS Rich]

Hi Avi,

 

Lite pass with steel wool may be all that’s needed after sealing.  I’ve had some good results painting over Minwax natural stain with Tamiya and Vallejo acrylics.

 

My personal preference is to leave the surface slightly rough so the imperfections of the wood and seams remain, so the observer knows it’s wood.

 

Cheers

 

[Avi]

Yeah @ERS Rich that’s what I’m looking for. 
 

I also found that the planks almost distorted upwards in shape after sealing. I needed to sand them pretty strongly afterwards. 
 

So you’re suggesting the sealer followed by light steel wool and then paint? Is that different than what I did on the right? Any ideas why it looks off, like the paint isn’t smooth?

[Avi]

This is much better. I did a combination of what @ERS Rich suggested and a suggestion from @MrBlueJacket much earlier in this log. 
 

No sealer, two coats of 50/50 thinned primer (Vallejo grey), lightly sanded with 1000 grit after each, then two coats of black, lightly sanded between first and second with the same 1000 grit. 
 

EDIT: I uploaded a higher resolution picture here so it’s clearer. 
 

 

and another after it fully dried overnight. 
 

@ERS Rich why is the paint so smooth and consistent looking in your picture? I’ve heard of people using high grit sandpaper on the final coat, but when I try that, even with 1000 grit, it just takes it off. 

Edited January 17, 2023 by Avi

[Avi]

Before painting, I’m going to drill out the airports and scuppers on each side. They get painted along with the planking, so might as well.

 

I’ve got both the model shipways and the bluejacket plans and instructions. Both sets of plans show 17 airports in roughly the same locations. However, the MS plans also show 6 scuppers, which do not appear at all on the BJ plan. The pic from @ERS Rich above shows the scuppers with covers, as well as fittings for the airports. I’ll look in the instructions for both, and hope there’s info in the BJ plans along with parts. If not, I’ll have to improvise. Open to suggestions of course. 

 

After another check of the parts list, I don't see anything that looks like the airport fittings or the scupper fittings and covers, nor anything about either in the BJ instructions. Are they in the kit @MrBlueJacket? Or do I need to construct them out of something?

 

EDIT: Aha, I found the airports. They were in the brass list. F0126, here. I’ll measure the diameters and get drilling. My calipers show 7/64” for the long part that is embedded, and 3/16” for the broad part that is on the outside of the hull. 
 

I still will need a solution for the scuppers. 

Edited January 17, 2023 by Avi

[JSGerson]

Avi, I didn't like the look of the MS kit provided scuppers once they were painted and installed. You couldn't see any detail and they basically vanished into the hull. According to the MS plans, the scuppers opened when water is flowing out of them, so they would normally be closed. However, when I looked at the photographs of the actual ship, they were open. So, I discarded the precast kit provided ones and made my own in the open configuration. You can see how I made them at posts #548 through #550. They weren't installed until post #630. Whether the results was worth my efforts, that's for you to judge.

 

Jon

[Avi]

Thanks @JSGerson; I will look there. Very much appreciated!

 

Wow. That’s quite the work. So you had the airports and drilled to countersink, but you manufactured scuppers? I like what you did, but I’m not sure I’ve got the wherewithal to replicate it. 

Edited January 17, 2023 by Avi

[JSGerson]

Yeah, I'm a little anal.

[Avi]

Airports are installed. I normally do all of my work on a work table, which is narrow and portable. However, one of the airports slipped out of my hand, and it took all of us a few minutes to find it on the floor. 
 

I moved my ship to the dining room table so any that fell would stay on the table. That paid off several times. 
 

I laid the side template on top of the hull, aligned it, and held it in place with clothespins. I then drilled holes through the blueprint markings into the planking. I used a very small bit by hand for the first pilot holes, then a larger one, then 3/64”, all by hand. Finally I did the 7/64” with my power drill on lowest setting. 
 

I then took the template to the other side and repeated. 
 

When done, I cleaned out each airport hole. I also needed to sand down again, and some planks came loose, so I glued them again. 
 

I used a toothpick to put some CA glue into each opening, then slid the airport cover onto another toothpick, slid it into the hole, pressed hard by hand, and then tapped it in with a tack hammer. 
 

I will admit they aren’t as aligned as I would like, but I’ll live with it. Besides, it all gets painted over soon. 
 

Next are scuppers. I’ve not the patience to go down the @JSGerson route and create them from brass rods. As he pointed out, they normally are closed, except when water pressure opens them. So I’m getting a sheet of copper, will cut it to shape of the covers, glue them into the right place and paint them.

 

I do, however, think I’m going to paint the hull and the covers separately, then attach them, so they have a little more definition after painting. 
 

So airports done, scuppers coming after the hull painting (and I need to wait for the copper to arrive), so just the bolt heads to add before I can start painting. I ordered them from BlueJacket with my last order of planking, so they should be in my supply stock somewhere. 

Edited January 22, 2023 by Avi

[Avi]

found the bolt heads, they’re just pins. But they definitely are way too long. If I stick them in, they’ll half be popping out of the other side. I’ll go to the local crafts store to see if I can find any that are much shorter. 
 

Spoke with @MrBlueJacket; he suggested cutting them to desired length, drill a pilot hole, tiny dollop of fast drying CA, and push it in. 
 

I started, it takes a loooong time to cut those pins. 
 

I held each one with a pair of tweezers, then used the edge cutters to cut them. 
 

I used a small food container to hold the tiny pins after they were cut, and a large one to capture the discarded ends as they went flying off. It wasn’t perfect - lots of sweeping to do afterwards - but caught most of them. 
 

You can see what the original one looks like against the bulwark, compared with the cut one. 

 

Edited January 24, 2023 by Avi

[Avi]

Finished the topsides bolt heads. I drilled each hole by hand, cleaned it a bit. For each bolt head, I dipped a needle (held by a cork, great idea from earlier, I think from @MrBlueJacket, and forgive me if I misplaced that credit) in thin CA. Dipped it in the hole, grabbed a shortened pin with angle head pliers, and pushed it in by hand. Some needed an extra tap with a light hammer (I used a tack hammer, but anything small enough will do). 
 

Some of them went in fairly easily, others simply refused over multiple tries until it went it. It is partially the size of the hole (I didn’t want them bigger, as the pins would be loose, even with CA), partially what the pin end was shaped into when I cut it short. Some are better than others. In the end, all went in. Picture of part of it is below. 

Word of advice for someone doing it: definitely get a pair of magnifying glasses with an LED light that head mounts, like Mighty Sight or similar. This would have been impossible without. 

I am not doing the inside yet. Going to spend next few months focused on painting exterior and coppering. 
 

Time to move on to priming. 

[JSGerson]

Very nicely done. If you show the bolt heads for the gun deck, shouldn't the spar deck have them as well? Those bolt heads represent the back end of the eye-bolts used for rigging the guns and there are guns on the top deck too.  A bit late now. but another method for creating the bolt heads you could have tried, was using a needle point to dab fine drops of white glue onto the hull surface to create the bumps and saved you all the effort of drilling and cutting. 

 

Jon

[Avi]

13 minutes ago, JSGerson said:

Very nicely done. If you show the bolt heads for the gun deck, shouldn't the spar deck have them as well? Those bolt heads represent the back end of the eye-bolts used for rigging the guns and there are guns on the top deck too.  A bit late now. but another method for creating the bolt heads you could have tried, was using a needle point to dab fine drops of white glue onto the hull surface to create the bumps and saved you all the effort of drilling and cutting. 

 

Jon

You are right about the backends of the eye-bolts, so it should be on the spardeck as well. I wasn't sure if I wanted to do it, but I think you are right. I took another look at my pictures from my visit in May, and they are there, although inverted. The gundeck are 3 on the plank below, 2 below that:

 

Quote

* * *

*    *

 

On the spardeck, it's 2 below, and 3 below that:

 

Quote

*    *

* * *

I might take your suggestion for drops of glue.

[JSGerson]

You know, I never noticed there was a subtle difference in the pattern. Oh well, it's too late for me but after a coat of black paint, you can barely see them at all let alone discern the difference in the two decks. That, and 99.9% of the people who actual take the time to look at these models would not have the intimate knowledge to recognize that detail. I believe it's because the spar deck has cannonades and the gun deck has, well, guns. Still, if I was a aware of it earlier, I would have done it more accurately. Good eye!

 

Jon

Edited January 26, 2023 by JSGerson