Cutty Sark by Kevin-the-lubber - Revell - 1:96 - PLASTIC

[Bill97]

Kevin I ran across what I think is a pretty good method to make a furled sail that I am going to practice a bit. If I can get something I like I may use it on my Victory. If not I will just go without sails. With that in mind I am going to leave the sheet, clewline, and tack belay points loose so I can maneuver that rigging intersection to wherever the tip of the sail ends up being. I know I should decide before I move forward but I am just so unsure what I want to do. I am definitely not going full unfurled sail. I can’t figure out how to copy and paste a link but here is the title of the post if you want to search for it. 
 

Landlubber Mike's technique for furled sails

[Kevin-the-lubber]

33 minutes ago, Bill97 said:

Landlubber Mike's technique for furled sails

Bill, I like the look of that and it's very nicely explained. Have you seen Bruma's sails on his Cutty Sark? Absolutely exquisite, but far too ambitious for me this time round. Ditto Rob's method on his Glory of the Seas, which is a completely different approach.

[Bill97]

No Kevin I have not seen those and will need to check them out. I started a topic the other day titled: Proper Rigging of Sheets. 
Popeye is trying to help me understand how the combination of the sheet, tack, clewline and clew on the sail all come together if I plan to add sails either furled or unfurled. Have to admit I don’t quite have my head around it yet and am wondering if I do want accuracy if I should just leave the sails off. 

[Bruma]

On 8/29/2022 at 7:10 PM, Kevin-the-lubber said:

Eleven days on and still reading rather than doing. I know this will be anathema to some of you, but is there an easy read 'rigging for clippers' book out there, a kind of 'rigging for dummies'? Whilst Harold Underhill clearly had enormous passion and knowledge, it feels like I'd need to read 'Masting & Rigging' cover to cover at least twice in order to have some idea of where to find answers to questions!

 

While writing can I ask one quick, simple question - do the futtock shrouds pass through the fore mast top and connect to the fore topmast shrouds via the lower set of fore topmast deadeyes?

 

 

Hi Kevin, you are doing great with your Kutty Sark, keep going! 

I know your feeling, I have been in this tunnel for very long time. 

For me, it was the first approach to rigging, and it was hard! Add to this the language barrier, and you can have a glimpse of my desperation.

On the other hand, one of the reasons that pushed me to build my model was to better know the real ship, how it was organized, how that brave sailors' ménage to guide her through the seven seas. 

And slowly I can finally say that now I know! And it is an immense satisfaction. 

Knowing each lines, knowing why they are there and being able to fly over this intricate wonders is really rewarding! Where others see a mess of line and spar, you see ingenuity and order!  So keep reading, write down your question and try to solve them, write what you find out and what you start to understand. Make some drawing to better show yourself what you know and what you still need to understand. That was the way that I followed. After a while, you will start to look for answer in specific areas rather than read it all over again. 

And about shortcuts... Well...  There aren't! At least for me. What might seam a simplified version or an irrelevant part, can turn out to be fundamental later on, and you might regret that shortcut. 

And you seem to be that kind of guy who is looking for perfection...  

Lastly, ask! Many other expert members of this community have helped me a lot! And, if possible, I'll be glad to do the same! 

Edited September 6, 2022 by Bruma

[Kevin-the-lubber]

Thanks Bruma, I know that is all very good advice. I'm a lot more gentle on myself now than I was a year ago, with the Victory; if I don't feel like doing something, or want to work on another area of the ship, I just do. And I know what you mean about there being no irrelevant parts, these ships were masterpieces of design and everything is there for a reason.

[bcochran]

Hi Kevin,

 

I have been away having surgery and recuperating.  Your Cutty Sark looks really magnificent.

 

Seems we are about at the same place with the rigging.  So I will be following along with you as we go.

 

While I was getting over my surgery, I built a model of the steamboat Robert E Lee. I have a build log of it here.

 

You are just doing a super job on your ship.

 

I read the discussion about the jackstays. Another Revell error is to put jackstay (posts?) on top dead center of the masts.  From what I have been reading, they should be at the eleven o'clock position on the fore side of the mast.

 

My plan is to scribe a line along the mast at the eleven o'clock position on the fore part of the mast.  Then drill holes for the jackstays supports aligned with Revell's molded supports.  Then sand off Revell's supports and add eyelets in the holes I drilled, and using thin brass rod for the jackstays. I won't be adding sails so I should make this look right.

 

 

Edited September 18, 2022 by bcochran

[Kevin-the-lubber]

Thanks Bob, I saw your Robert E Lee on your CS log, looks lovely and that’s fast work! I’ll have to take a look at the build log. I hope you’re making a good recovery - spinal surgery is serious stuff. I’m having an ankle fused in two or three months time, and even that makes me nervous. On the bright side I should have some recovery time to spend on models!
 

I’m just finishing off the replacement boats and will post some photos soon. It’s been a lot of work, most of which won’t even be seen since they’ll be upside down, but I wanted to understand how to model these in the software and to have ‘stock’ clinker built boats that I can recycle on other models.

 

I’ve started modelling the masts and yards so I’ll be behind you on rigging as modelling anything from scratch always takes a lot of time. In fact I’ve started modelling the hull, which would mean nothing on the ship would be revell, but as that will be a project in itself I’ll do that as a separate build down the line, possibly at about 1/75 or even 1/50.
 

 

[Ian_Grant]

Kevin, are you aware of photogrammetry? Might be a quick way of getting Revell's hull lines into CAD.

[Kevin-the-lubber]

8 hours ago, Ian_Grant said:

Kevin, are you aware of photogrammetry? Might be a quick way of getting Revell's hull lines into CAD.

Ian, I tried using handheld scanning with a phone to map Hellers victory quarter galleries last year, but for reasons I forget I gave up on it. I think I was only able to get the rough shape but I’d need something better for the level of detail I was seeking. I imagine a proper 3D scanning setup might be better, but that’s way too expensive for this hobbyist.

 

Modelling the boats has been an education in this respect. I was gifted a full size, finished 3D model of the jolly boat, but making that fit for my purposes meant recreating it entirely in Fusion 360. Essentially, I could only use it ‘as is’ or as an excellent reference. I think photogrammetry may be similar, for modelling: an approximation, but you’ll have to do so much post-scan work that you may as well do it by measurement, if that’s possible. But I’m all ears if anyone has had more success with it.

[Kevin-the-lubber]

I've spent far more time on these boats than I should, but it's been interesting and enjoyable. I'm still working on the lifeboat but here are the jolly and gig (which is omitted from the kit). For info, I had to fiddle with the thicknesses of several areas including the hull because scaling down to 1/96 resulted in paper thin parts, but I think the end result is a pretty fair representation.

 

Revell's jolly boat. Not too bad, a bit crude and clunky though.

The real jolly boat

 

 

 

The model. The paintwork is much darker in the flesh, similar to the real thing; I over-exposed the photo just to show the detail a little more clearly. I omitted the little circular badges on the prow, too small for painting.

The sleek gig; if I was a sailor this is what I'd want to drive 🙂

 

 

 

 

[Kevin-the-lubber]

The boats are finished now, along with new skids to accommodate the jolly boat being in the middle. I'm still fiddling with skids on the fore cabin roof as the kit parts are all wrong for a gig. 

 

In other news, I've been working on the foremast and spars, coupled with the deadeyes as these are all part of a piece, over the last month while waiting for boats to print, paint to dry, summer to return etc. It's another good exercise; I'm already beginning to learn the names of rigging parts and understand how some things relate to others. It may be a while until I'm ready to post on that though and I'm reconciled to this project running well into next year. I still have no idea how I'm going to make sails though!

[Hubac's Historian]

This all looks so perfectly good, Kevin!

[Kevin-the-lubber]

Just in passing. I'm doing some painting and decorating this weekend, so had a rummage through the shed this morning to see what paint I have that needs using up; kind of makes you wonder why you bother, doesn't it. I bet it can even be airbrushed if you thin it enough🙄.

 

 

[Bill97]

Kevin I have not checked on your Cutty Sark build for a while. You are doing some fantastic work. Really enjoyed what Burma contributed. Wouldn’t it be fantastic if we all had the ability to meet in a big model ship building room where we could easily share, talk and help each other. What a great bunch of international friends we all seem to be. 

Edited October 20, 2022 by Bill97

[Kevin-the-lubber]

Thanks for looking in Bill, I always seem to have a lot going on these days so my progress is painfully slow. Some weeks it can be  one tiny element completed, but that’s life! This is in part because I need to avoid letting modelling take up all my free time - it’s very easy to become over-engrossed in these projects.

 

Yes, it would be great to be doing this all together somewhere. I wonder if we’d be faster or slower?

[Kevin-the-lubber]

Super slow progress at the moment - I'm still developing the foremast and yards, trying to make sense of the various texts I have on these, which I'm finding difficult as I have no previous experience of sailing, masts, yards or any of the other gubbins that are part of the array. The trouble with multiple sources is they each provide slightly different accounts of a typical mast and spars, and I have no base knowledge to help sort this out. But I suppose this is no different to the experts on here who scratch build based on pure research. I'm mainly basing my models on Underhill's 'Masting & Rigging The Clipper Ship & Ocean Carrier' as this is very detailed, but adapting them where need be to make them practical at a 1/100 scale.

Anyway, I'm getting there bit by bit and am fairly close to doing a first print. I suspect I'll go through quite a few iterations until I get to the finished article; there will be the usual fiddling around to find the best way to print the parts - this will be more challenging as they are long, thin objects - but I'll no doubt also discover down the line, that such and such a fitting is needed but currently omitted, etc. Why bother, you may ask, when I have kit parts; well, partly 'why not', partly because I think I will learn the rigging much better this way, partly because the kit parts are a bit wonky and generally not that great and partly for the challenge. A few people, myself including, have thought resin printing is not really suitable for masts and yards, so I thought I'd give it a go and see what happens.

 

Which brings me to a couple of questions, if anyone would be kind enough to chip in;

 

1) What are these square blobs on the lower yards meant to represent? Cheek blocks?

2) What are these Fairleads for?

 

Bruma, if you're reading, I've been studying your yards and, more particularly, your sails again this week. I'm going to try the 'half-hauled-up' look using modelspan, which I've ordered today, as ordinary tissue just tore when wet, but if I can't get what I'm aiming for, I think I may copy yours and try fully rigged.

 

 

[Ian_Grant]

Hi Kevin,

 

That's Revell's rendition of the cheek block for the sheet line to the sail above.

 

The fairleads on the lower yard are for the chain sheets to the lower topsail; on the lower topsail yard they're for chain sheets to the upper topsail. Sheets run from the sail's clew corner, through the cheek block, through the fairleads, and finally through the sheet block at the centre band and down to deck.

[Kevin-the-lubber]

Thanks Ian, that makes absolute sense now. And presumably those coming along the lower yard (which appear to be chains) go down to blocks, which are in turn connected to the spider band, which in turn is tied off to the fife rail? I think I may have had my first of many rigging related light bulb moments 🤪

 

[Bruma]

Hi Kevin! 

You are doing great, and I constantly follow your updates. And yes, your conclusion about the chain sheets are right (or at least I agree with you!) and I agree with Ian's answer. If I may suggest, try to rig the sheets purchase on the mast as soon as possible. They are pretty challenging and working with some free space around them might be helpful; this will be a crowded area... 

I wish you all the best with the furled sail, I'm sure you will be able to give them a proper redemption. 

I will post on my build log (so I don't mess with yours) some detail about the fore course yard arm, hoping to clarify the rigging. 

If you don't mind, I would like to share with you some thought:

1: if you go for redoing the masts in resin, consider to improve the revelle version. Some details are not well reproduced, and you can surely improve them with small effort. The main one is the cap band shape. They are well represented in Campbell's plans, and there are many pictures of the preserved ship. Not doing them properly is one of my many regrets about the build...

2: full rigging the yards is a challenge. Not a technical one, I'm sure you can do it, but it takes a huge amount of time, and it is a repetitive job. When ratlines says they are boring, the yards rig steps in and says: hold my beer!  I don't want to discourage you, it is rewarding, but just consider it, and plan it properly. 

If I can be helpful, please write, and I'll try to give my two cents.

 

 

[Ian_Grant]

20 hours ago, Kevin-the-lubber said:

Thanks Ian, that makes absolute sense now. And presumably those coming along the lower yard (which appear to be chains) go down to blocks, which are in turn connected to the spider band, which in turn is tied off to the fife rail? I think I may have had my first of many rigging related light bulb moments 🤪

Kevin, Rob Wiederrich's beautiful "Great Republic" scratch build is a great resource for clipper rigging, with many good photos. He has detailed rigging photos. I recall his chain sheets in particular because he formed his sheet blocks on the centre bands from brass. I tried it for "Preussen" but at 1/150 I could not do it. 😭

[Kevin-the-lubber]

Bruma, thanks for those tips. I’ve noted someone (was it you?) recommending to leave glueing the fife rails until later, as space around the base is tight, but in any case I’m avoiding fixing anything in place - even the cabins and boats - until I’m reasonably sure that won’t be a problem down the line. In general I’m using underhill’s designs as they seem more detailed than Campbell, and I’m only using revell for things like the length or diameter of a mast or spar. I think I used underhill’s designs for the caps and  mast bands. 
 

Ian, I followed Rob’s excellent Glory of the Seas but don’t think I’ve looked at his Great Republic, so will do so presently. I have the first draft print underway, it’ll take 12 or 13 hours, meanwhile I’m back on house painting! Bruma, my white woodwork says ‘hold my beer’ to your yard rigging. I can’t believe that, once upon a time, I used to quite enjoy painting and decorating. Ian, the centre sheet blocks are simple in resin, the big question is whether they’ll be strong enough. At 1/100 I’m constantly on the margins of fragility with small parts. In fact the whole centre area, connecting the yard to the mast, is what I’m most interested to see once the printing is finished, as I have a feeling I’m going to need to cheat a bit and use some hidden metal pins to make everything secure.

 

If everything prints successfully (high risk of print failure on the mast and yard sections) I’ll post reflections sometime this week.
 

 

[Kevin-the-lubber]

First 'draft' of the Fore mast. This is my typical 'stage 1' in the development process.

 

Resin parts can be very flexible, too much so at times. But all masts and spars get a carbon fibre insert which makes them rock solid. Nevertheless, I will most likely change to a stiffer resin mix as I progress.

A few months ago I tried printing a yard as a single 'tube'. It was hopeless, the 2mm centre hole (for the essential CF stiffener) closed up within 10mm or 15mm and even if I had a lathe (I don't), boring it out would be impractical as the resin would most likely be gooey in the centre. Split halves, just like the kit, work better, even on the topgallant. But when glueing up, you need loads and loads of clamp points to close the parts together, due to the softness of the print. Once glued the joints are far better than the kit parts. I think I may make a clamping jig for the final versions, something printed using the filament printer.

A fitting trial. Everything looks generally good, I can see that, once everything is glued in place, the masts will naturally go straight and true.

 

However, quite a lot of small adjustments are needed. I've made a better set of mast bands but none of them are fitting, need a bit more clearance. This is how it goes with resin: you find a magic formula, for me that's 0.2mm clearance, and then find it's not working for some reason or another. In this case it's an easy fix. The truss for the lower yard is in the 'really?' category. Even with the chain to the centre band, it'll be snapping at the slightest touch. And at 0.2mm thickness, the yard bands, while looking the part, are probably also a non-starter. I'll probably use hidden brass pins here.

 

The rest of this weeks modelling time will mostly go into the revisions and then I'll print again. The good thing today is that everything printed fine, so at least I'm not chasing my tail to overcome problems in that area, which is good.

 

[Hubac's Historian]

What about tape-clamping your spar parts together in a continuous spiral of painters’ tape?

[Kevin-the-lubber]

Taping would work, Marc. I like to be able to see the joints if possible as a tight line means all is well.

[Kevin-the-lubber]

Folks, there's a question/plea for help in this further down, which I'll underline

 

Second draft. The R&D department has been busy over the last two or three weeks and found a decent method of manufacturing the masts and yards as whole tubes, aided by some very nice, extra long micro drills; below, standard 1mm bit and 100mm long bit - you don't see many of those about, do you. By happy coincidence the lady who sells these on ebay is only a couple of miles away from me and has a veritable cornucopia of modelling tools, many of which will no doubt become mine over time. Anyway, these long drill bits allow me to bore out the barrels of tubes, which close up a little during printing, in order to slide in a CF stiffening rod.

The results, in terms of being able to make even the thinnest of yards, are really very, very good; this is a 3mm or 4mm stiffened resin-printed yard-arm taking the full weight of my vernier caliper. with this amount of weight it'll bend, but not break, and returns to shape instantly. The mast and lower yard simply don't bend or break, solid as a rock.

So we're in business from that perspective and here are a few detail photos of a 'dress rehearsal' of the lower foremast, largely so I can ask my questions! I find it is sometimes easier to see what changes are still needed if I do a quick'n'dirty paint up of the assembly, even though this iteration will end up in the scrap bin. Stiffeners are the magic ingredient here, well that and getting a resin mix that balances stiffness with flexibiity. You won't see it but I inserted two tiny brass pins in the truss that links the yard to the futtock band, which stops this weak point from breaking.

However, I am not confident in my interpretation of the fittings on the lower yard: in particular, I am not convinced that the orientation of the sheet block, fairleads and cheek blocks relative to each other are correct and would very much appreciate a steer on this. I'd also be grateful for any pointers around details I've missed - bear in mind I've treated both the lower mast and yard as steel rather than timber, though the yard-arms are treated as timber. Getting this right at this point is key, because this mast and yard will essentially be the template for most of the others.

 

Hopefully the two photos below show the current setup well enough. Looking at the yard from a side view, as per Underhill I've made the sheet block parallel to the mast. The cheek blocks are perpendicular to the mast. The fairleads (two on each side) are roughly halfway between parallel and perpendicular. I decided to orientate them like this because otherwise they would seem to foul the yard arms, or sit behind the same which seems illogical. My arrangement means the lower topsail sheets are going to slightly 'twist' their way around the yard as they pass from chain block through to sheet block. Is that correct? (Ignore the misalignment of the yard arms, they aren't glued in place)

 

[Ian_Grant]

Kevin, the cheek blocks should be at the back of the yard not the front. From here, the sheets run through fairleads at the bottom of the yard to your lovely sheet block. Once you have the cheek block at the back this makes perfect sense.

 

You're getting to be quite the 3D resin guy! I'm impressed you were able to drill through the yard axis for such a length!

 

This model is going to be rock solid.

 

When will you be marketing your tru-to-life rendition of Cutty Sark? 😀

 

ps I think you are are referring to the studding sail booms (stuns'l booms) as "yardarms".

 

Edited November 19, 2022 by Ian_Grant

[Kevin-the-lubber]

12 minutes ago, Ian_Grant said:

ps I think you are are referring to the studding sail booms (stuns'l booms) as "yardarms".

Oh that's entirely possible. I think I'm doing pretty well to not just be calling everything sticks 🙄.

 

I don't have to drill through solid bars, I just have to open out the barrels slightly as they tend to close up down the tubes. It's relatively quick and painless, especially with these long drill bits. I think I've given up any ideas of ever marketing any of this stuff. It would be nice to make a little pocket money and all that but I'm coming to realise something I've probably always known about myself when it comes to making things. I love the design bit, the problem solving, but get very bored with repetition. For those familiar with Belbin, I'm a stereotypical 'Plant' with a bit of 'Shaper' for good measure. Here's an example;

 

At the back, lower deadeye sets awaiting glueing and painting.... but I was three short. At the front, a batch that need re-drilling and pinning. They've been sat there for about 4 weeks. Making the foremast assembly is much more interesting.

Cheek blocks at the back - as you say, it now makes perfect sense. So the fairleads then align to the cheek block. (I quite like that too!). Thank you once again Ian. If Messrs Underhill and Campbell were still around I would give them both a very stern lecture about the utility of proper isometric drawings.

 

 

[Ian_Grant]

2 hours ago, Kevin-the-lubber said:

<..snip..> So the fairleads then align to the cheek block. (I quite like that too!).

 

 

Actually the fairleads align with the sheet block. They're on the bottom of the yard.

[Kevin-the-lubber]

13 minutes ago, Ian_Grant said:

Actually the fairleads align with the sheet block. They're on the bottom of the yard.

Doh! That’s what I meant.

[shipman]

So, where can I buy the long micro drills, please?