Bow planking/tapering/etc Issue

[fifthace]

Hello.

I was wondering if I could get some advice, as I am not entirely sure how to proceed here.



Hopefully, the above animation should work, it's at 2 second intervals.

Red: This is how I have been planking at the bow up until this point, tapering the planks to reduce the width going forward. At this point, the planks are starting to require a lateral twist to get them to sit against the previous plank.

Yellow: This is without tapering the plank, but still requires a lateral twist.

Blue: This is again with no taper, but how the plank wants to lay with no lateral force.

Green: This is where the planks would meet the lower edge of what will be the main wale (when later fitted), if I allow the planks to lay where they want to.



Ideally, I'd want to continue with the Red option, to try and avoid the result of the green option. I'm really lost with how to move forward as everything I've read about correctly planking says to avoid any lateral force on the planks...?


Thanks in advance.

[druxey]

Please take a look at the various planking tutorials on this site. They will clarify things for you.

[Gregory]

Here is a link for you:

 

https://modelshipworld.com/forum/98-planking-downloads-and-tutorials-and-videos/

 

Here is another recent topic where another member was given some help regarding of shaping planks to lie flat on a curved hull.

 

 

[fifthace]

Thank you both.

I had already reviewed the various subjects on here regarding planking, I understand the basic principles.

What I need to do is spile a plank as the masking tape in this photo, but as you can see from the plank below it, the stock I have does not allow me to achieve this.

[Thukydides]

If I had to guess from the picture you havn't been tapering enough yet or maybe the garboard was brought to far forward (hard to tell given I can't see the whole model).

 

Look up Chuck's edge bending tutorial after tapering (you bend the plank on its edge to get the necessary curve using heat and a little moisture) and use tick marks to determine how much tapering you need. If the necessary taper is too extreme you may need to add in a drop plank below the wales. See the picture below for an example of what it should look like. You can see I added a drop plank right below the wales where one plank becomes two.

Edited March 15, 2022 by Thukydides

[fifthace]

Thank you.

I've been tapering up to 50% of the planks width.

Quite possible the garboard plank was too far forward, but unless my head really can't wrap itself round this, if it was further aft it would just make my current issue worse?

After reading everything above, I am thinking that a drop plank (2 into 1) is needed as my next plank at the bottom, to decrease the upward curve?

No, that previous bit is wrong, I need to add a wide to narrow plank, wide at the stem, narrow towards the stern into one planks width?

My only other option is a crude one, and that is seeing as the hull will be coppered, is to plank from the wale down correctly , until I reach the waterline, then continue my current planking from the bottom up. As that area won't be visible it won't really matter.

The annoyance of this is spiling solves the problem, but I am not sure how to do that from the stock I have.

Edited March 15, 2022 by fifthace
Correcting myself.

[Gregory]

12 minutes ago, fifthace said:

I had already reviewed the various subjects on here regarding planking

At the link provided above, did you look at the video regarding longitudinal bending?

 

It accomplished the same thing as spiling.

 

 

( Image from link above..  Not a video )

[Thukydides]

See Gregory's post, that was what I meant by edge bending. For the drop plank, traditionally they were put right under the wales by British shipwrights so if you are going to add one, that would be where you should put it.

 

The garboard does look a little bit far forward to me, so I think that is part of your issue, but you should mark out your planks using tick strips and check. You may be fine with the addition of a drop plank.

Edited March 15, 2022 by Thukydides

[fifthace]

3 minutes ago, Gregory said:

At the link provided above, did you look at the video regarding longitudinal bending?

 

It accomplished the same thing as spiling.

 

 

( Image from link above..  Not a video )

No, I didn't see this one, I'll go take a look now,


Thanks

[Gregory]

50% May or may not be enough.

 

In the planking resources you will find that you should count the number of full planks amidships.  Measure the space available at the bow and divide by the number of planks.

 

If it looks like the planks at the bow are going to be too narrow then you may need a drop plank which will reduce the number of planks at the bow by one.

[fifthace]

8 minutes ago, Gregory said:

50% May or may not be enough.

 

In the planking resources you will find that you should count the number of full planks amidships.  Measure the space available at the bow and divide by the number of planks.

 

If it looks like the planks at the bow are going to be too narrow then you may need a drop plank which will reduce the number of planks at the bow by one.

Thanks, sadly I remembered that too late, but will keep it in mind the next time.

I was under the impression planks shouldn't be made any narrower than half their width?



I had a look at Chuck's video on bending, I didn't even realise you could bend planks in that manner. I just tried a very quick and dirty experiment with that and have to say I am very impressed!

 

[Gregory]

12 minutes ago, fifthace said:

I was under the impression planks shouldn't be made any narrower than half their width?

That is correct, and where a drop plank would be used.  It reduces the number of planks by 1..

 

[Cathead]

Another point here in case it helps clarify your situation: hull planking will almost always require either edge bending or spiling because the planking will curve through three dimensions. Most kits provide only straight stock that isn't wide enough for spiling, meaning that you have to edge-bend to use kit stock, but most such kits never explain this and it can give newer builders fits. Unless you buy a rare kit whose planking is pre-spiled, you either edge-bend the kit stock or buy sheets of wood that you can cut  your own spiled planking out of, discarding the kit stock.

[fifthace]

14 minutes ago, Cathead said:

Another point here in case it helps clarify your situation: hull planking will almost always require either edge bending or spiling because the planking will curve through three dimensions. Most kits provide only straight stock that isn't wide enough for spiling, meaning that you have to edge-bend to use kit stock, but most such kits never explain this and it can give newer builders fits. Unless you buy a rare kit whose planking is pre-spiled, you either edge-bend the kit stock or buy sheets of wood that you can cut  your own spiled planking out of, discarding the kit stock.

Yes absolutely this. Knowing that single piece of information makes so much I previously couldn't grasp and thought I was just being dense, make sense now.



Thanks everyone, I have enough info to move forwards with this now.

[Trussben]

Your garboard is too far forward as you thought before, it needs to be more like 3/4" further aft, having it too far forward forces the other planking too far up the bow which causes plenty of headaches.

[Gregory]

I've read that the garboard should end before the stem/keel  begins to curve upward..

Does that sound right?

 

 

Here is an example from Glenn's Cheerful.

[fifthace]

1 hour ago, Gregory said:

I've read that the garboard should end before the stem/keel  begins to curve upward..

Does that sound right?

 

 

Here is an example from Glenn's Cheerful.

If that is the case, then my garboard is bang on ?

On the remaining planking, I've done the math, albiet it a bit late, and the remaining planks need to be 25% wide, which is 1mm. Way too narrow. In order for me to keep them at 50%, I'd need half of them to be drop planks. 18 planks at midship, that's 9 drop planks...

[Thukydides]

I would say it should be somewhere around here or possibly a little more forward.

 

However the garboard is one of the hardest things to get right. But given how little room you have, there are only two possibilities. Either the garboard is too far up or you didn't start tapering soon enough below the wales.

 

Edit: I should also mention it is not the outer curve of the keel that determines where the garboard ends, it is the inner curve. On your model the inner side of the keel begins to curve long before the outer side of it does.

Edited March 15, 2022 by Thukydides

[Gregory]

I agree your garboard looks OK based on the criteria I quoted.

 

I think you can fudge on the 50% a bit..  ( Whose checking?)

 

 

 

These drawings from  the AOTS book show no drop planks and no stealers at the stern.

The scale of your planks may present a problem.  Not much help here, but something to think about for future projects.

Edited March 15, 2022 by Gregory

[Trussben]

10 minutes ago, Thukydides said:

I would say it should be somewhere around here or possibly a little more forward.

 

However the garboard is one of the hardest things to get right. But given how little room you have, there are only two possibilities. Either the garboard is too far up or you didn't start tapering soon enough below the wales.

 

Edit: I should also mention it is not the outer curve of the keel that determines where the garboard ends, it is the inner curve. On your model the inner side of the keel begins to curve long before the outer side of it does.

Thats about right, maybe even a touch further back.

 

See that C2.2 picture on bottom of last post, you can just make out the garboard where it ends at the boxing joint.

[rudybob]

Pages 3-8 helped me a great deal

 

https://syrenshipmodelcompany.com/resources/ChapterchapFour.pdf 

[fifthace]

13 minutes ago, Thukydides said:

I would say it should be somewhere around here or possibly a little more forward.

 

However the garboard is one of the hardest things to get right. But given how little room you have, there are only two possibilities. Either the garboard is too far up or you didn't start tapering soon enough below the wales.

 

Edit: I should also mention it is not the outer curve of the keel that determines where the garboard ends, it is the inner curve. On your model the inner side of the keel begins to curve long before the outer side of it does.

Yes, that makes more sense actually.

The upper planking I've done stops at the bottom edge of the wales, so none of those above were tapered at all.

I've also just came across this:

How to do a Bluff Bow Planking Job.

This shows a real life example with quite a lot of drops used. Whether or not this is how it was done historically is for others far more knowledgeable than me to debate, but it does give me hope that I can still rescue this.

 

 

15 minutes ago, Gregory said:

I agree your garboard looks OK based on the criteria I quoted.

 

I think you can fudge on the 50% a bit..  ( Whose checking?)

 

 

 

These drawings from  the AOTS book show no drop planks and no stealers at the stern.

The scale of your planks may present a problem.  Not much help here, but something to think about for future projects.

Thanks for this, this was what I was hoping to achieve in an ideal world.

[Gregory]

Just another thought.

 

I have shaped my garboards more or less by extending the plank straight along the keel and noting where the upper edge meets the keel, then shaping it accordingly..

 

 

It also helps if the garboard is a little wider than the other planks.

[allanyed]

The garboard ends at the forward end of the boxing joint on the below expansion drawing as well as other planking expansion drawings on the RMG Collections site.  I have not found any showing it ending elsewhere, but they may exist.

 

Allan

[Gregory]

53 minutes ago, allanyed said:

The garboard ends at the forward end of the boxing joint

A lot ( most ) of kits, kits being the majority of projects here, do not provide any information about the boxing joint.