US Brig Syren by rtropp - Model Shipways - 1:64

[dgbot]

David,you're right. Heck I'm not done buying toys... Er I mean... Tools.

Richard

We all have our tools (toys) that we like to get.

David B

[kscadman]

Hi, Richard, what I meant by soak is I let it dry for at least an hour after wiping off the excess after 15 minutes. Guess I need to work on my communication skills..lol. Sorry.

 

Richard

[rtropp]

Richard

I had not been letting it dry that long. Too impatient I guess. With the next attempt at planking I will give the pre-stain more time.

Richard

[rtropp]

Well, I am still working on the contract in Houston each week so my build is slipping. Once I am in a routine I should be able to get some time in on weekends.

Meanwhile, thought I would update on my battle with tree nailing. I just about decided that, after trying to follow the suggestions of half a dozen members, it was just not going to work for me. I was about to put the drawplate up on EBay and go back to using filler when I thought... one more time.

So, here's what I did... and darned if it didn't work.

 

I used 4" bamboo skewers. they are round and pointed on both sides. I had tried smaller toothpicks but they kept breaking... too weak. I took the skewers and cut them in half leaving about 2" per pointed end.

 

I then clamped the drawplate to my worktable

 

 

 

I gently... very gently hammered the pointed end of the skewer into the drawplate. When I reached the final hole size on the drawplate, I used so soft a touch that it almost felt as if nothing was happening. On that final hole I tapped from 15 - 25 times just to go that mm or two. Just a whisper...

 

 

First, I was sure to use the correct side of the draw plate (which goes against all logic). I needed a thickness(... er thinness??) that was created on the smallest hole on the drawplate (MM's). After a lot of experimentation with going from the hole that was the size of the toothpick and working my way down, I found that I just needed to start at a hole about three sizes up from the final one I would use since I was not doing a complete draw, just the end and pull out the way it went in. Saved a lot of wasted time.

On the first couple of passes I found it best to only go a tiny bit. If the end you thin is too long, it will break when you tap it in subsequent holes. In fact, if you tap and the pull out you will see a little ridge where the wood builds up. This seems to strengthen the toothpick for the next reductions. Remember, you are pushing (tapping) not pulling in creating the treenail so the dynamics are different in how the wood handles.

 

You can see in the following picture how I stopped part way and left a "bulge" of wood at each reduction before continuing. And, that I only thinned a very small amount of the tooth pick.

Note: if the thinned end starts to bend while tapping, just get rid of it and start another, once it starts to bend it will be a pain to finish and a bear to push in the predrilled tree nail hole.

 

 

 

I continued on this way until I had a bunch. the picture below has about 10 minutes worth of work.

 

Pushing them into the predrilled holes in the planks was fairly easy as long as you went straight down into the hole. I could actually feel it snap into place for most of them. I watered down the white glue just a little to get it to slide in better. Then let the glue dry and trim.

 

 

I found this was a pretty quick and painless process. Of course 95% of the toothpick was waste, but they are cheap enough at the market that I didn't spend time re-sharpening and reusing them.

 

My first try came out looking decent.

 

I had prefabricated the deck as a way to get around some earlier construction mishaps. I think the ideas was good but the execution was bad. Should have measured a heck of a lot more before putting glue to wood. So I am doing it all over again. (the picture doesn't show the aft part of the deck where I screwed up...to painful to admit.)

 

This is, in fact, where motion stopped about a month ago when I got talked into taking another assignment. I really forgot how work interferes with your personal time

 

Anyway, since I have to do this again anyway, I am going to experiment using other types of wood, both darker and lighter than the planks, to see how they look once finished. It should be easy enough to use this method with almost any small diameter wood as long as it has a point. Even small square strips should work. I like using the natural color of wood but could stain the tree nails before gluing if that works out for a better look.

 

Well, that's it for now. Monday I am back to the airport.

 

Richard

Edited March 15, 2014 by rtropp

[Marsares]

Nice to see a drawplate in action, I've acquired myself one and intend to use it for my Syren once I got to that stage so your hints and tips are greatly appreciated! It's turning into a very fine ship indeed!

[Charley54]

Hey Richard,  very very nice!  I had almost given up the idea of doing treenails as my battle with planking has been epic and I have been just slogging along. One plank at a time, but seeing your stuff is reinvigorating. Thanks

 

Charley

[dgbot]

On your treenails have you thought of going in from the other side? That is what I do with my drawplate and I am able to shave off very thin pieces. down to a number 80 drill bit. Run the skewer through the same hole several times shaving it then going down one at a time.

David B

Edited March 16, 2014 by dgbot

[rtropp]

Marsares and Charley,

Glad the experience is helpful. I found that I do like the look of wood plugs vs, filler, and now it is not too difficult

 

David,

Not sure what you mean by the "other side." If you mean going into the concave depression side, that did not seem to work for me when I tried it so I use the opposite side, the side I am told is the correct one to use for drawing.

I am able to get to the smallest hole on the draw plate without too much trouble, I believe it is 76 or perhaps 78. Since I do not try to thin the whole skewer, only a few mm at the end, it seems to go very quickly for me without all the preparation, soaking, splitting, etc. And without the breaking and tearing. Trying to draw the piece all the way through over and over again just did not work for me. Too clumsy I guess

 

Richard

 

Just edited this post. I noticed that I had used Charlie's name instead of David's. My apologies

Edited March 16, 2014 by rtropp

[rtropp]

Hi all,

I finished my assignment in Houston and am back to being retired.  I am glad to get back to my Syren.

 

I had made some progress over the last few weeks and will post an update but for now I have a question.

 

I am starting to build the coppering jig.  I noticed there is a packet of tiny brass nails in the kit. Are these to use for the coppering jig?  If not, I am not sure what width to use.  I have some 3/64 round brass bar that I can use but am not sure if it too big.

 

I appreciate any and all suggestions.

 

Richard  

[Gahm]

Richard,

I never figured out what the brass nails are for. I don't think they are meant for the coppering jig, although you could probably use them for that. What you choose for your nail head depends on what pattern you want to create. If you look at the different Syren build logs you will see all kinds of suggestions on how to do that and what to use. I went with a pretty fine "in scale" nail pattern. For that I bought me some diabetes needles (diameter less than 0.5 mm - you can get a nice selection of various brands at pretty much any pharmacy store including Walmart for very little money) and built my nail head using a bunch of those needles. If you want to go with a coarser pattern as most Syren modelers do any types of nails with the diameter of your choice will do.

 

Thomas

[rtropp]

Thomas,

I had also posted this question in the building, planking, framing forum.  Chuck responded that the brass nails were for the coppering jig but added that he thought they were too large.

 

I am strongly considering following the method in your build.

 

Richard.

[Moo]

Ronald

rcbuyerswarehouse.com

Product Name Part No. Quantity Item Price Total Price

Modeling Pins, 50 HL-MO0002 2 $6.99 $13.98

richard

Hi Richard, just tried rcbuyers, but didn't seem to have them listed. Found them at:

http://www.hobbyexpress.com/pins.htm

Cheers

Leanne

[rtropp]

Hi all,

Its been the summer from hell but I am finally able to get back to my Syren.

 

I thought I would begin with a photo of its current state which is a few rows into the coppering. It was not just a question of figuring out the stamp, but also learning how to use the tools. I will post my coppering saga in another post when I have more time. 

 

I was not thrilled with how the deck came out. Not all of the tree nails lined up as well as the should.  I was at the point that I was seriously considering scrapping it and starting over.  But, I realized that I still do not know what mistakes I have yet to make.  So, I decided to continue on with this. I figured some of the deck furniture / cannons would cover up some of the mistakes and it should end up ok.

 

Richard

 

 

 

 

[rtropp]

Hi all,

I was experiencing delays in posting because of problems trying to post pictures. I was getting pretty frustrated until I went back and re-read the pinned instructions.  I was using IE 11.  No matter what I tried it would not work.  Finally switched to google chrome and it works like a charm... So on to my update.

 

Coppering the hull took forever.  There was so much to learn because it was not just creating the stamps but learning how to use various tools, drills, Mill, compound table, wire cutters for high strength stainless steel, etc. 

 

I decided to experiment with nails of different diameters per Chuck's suggestion. Being a glutton for punishment I decided to try to follow Thomas Gahm's examples. 

 

Thank you Thomas for being very helpful in sending me additional information to help get me started. 

 

I could not get the tightness of the nail pattern as small as Thomas did but I did get mine much smaller than the nails supplied with the kit. I used 26 gauge Lancets made for diabetes testing.  I separated them from the plastic casing and cut them to size. They are not only thin but very strong requiring a bit of a search for wire cutters whose blades would not be damaged.  Went through to or three flush cutters with ruined blades before I figured out they were just not tough enough.  Finally went to wire cutters pictured below and just calculated the offset as part of the cut.

 

 

A quick view of the weeks of trials to get where I am with Copper plating.

My first attempt was to print out a pattern and use a Dremel drill in a drilling stand to make the holes.  Manually moving the piece to be drilled did not work out.  So I decided to use my new Mill and its compound table.  Given my starting skills level, I had to work through, how not to break the drill bit, how to change to a higher speed on the mill, how to use the compound table, how to calculate the spacing for the nails, and how to not break the completed stamp when adding the additional wood layers and much more.  Took weeks of rework.  I made about 15 stamps before I got it where it was acceptable... whew!

 

Below is the set up with the Dremel and stand. I just could not get accurate enough to meet the pattern.  

 

 

 

Then I decided to try it with the compound table on my Mill.  Once I learned how to adjust the belts to increase the speed, the drill bits stopped breaking.  I did not use a paper template but relied on calculations as shown further below.:

 

 

This is a sample of the form I used to calculate spacing for the drilling.  One purpose was to translate all to thousandths so I could just count the demarcations on the dial scale of the compound tables vs. eyeballing it :

 

 

I built the various parts of the stamp:

 

 

 

Once the copper was imprinted I had difficulty cutting the plates at a consistent 90 degrees. I found this device below on Amazon.  There are others like it but this one is nice and compact.

 

 

I used a large diameter lead from an art pencil clamped to a height gauge to mark the water line:

 

 

 

Finally began putting the plates on the boat:

 

 

 

 

 

It looks decent but I messed up on the first (Port) side.  While I used a cotton glove when touching the copper, I used my bare thumb to separate the copper from the backing. I must have gotten oil from my fingers on the very corner of the glue side of the plate because now many of the corners are lifting. 

 

When I did the starboard side I had cotton gloves on both hands and used tweezers to separate the copper from the backing.  That side has no problem with corners.

 

Now, I am trying to figure out how to get out of removing all the plates from the port side and having to re-stamp and reapply them.  I tested a lacquer spray on a sample piece that I assembled the same way I did the port side.  It helps a little but there are still corners coming free.

 

Puleeaze.... Any suggestions on what can be sprayed, applied, etc to avoid having to re plate that side would be welcome.

 

Richard

Edited October 27, 2014 by rtropp

[Gahm]

Excellent work, Richard! Your coppered hull looks great! Wow, what a process you went through! And I fully agree with Dirk, don't tear off these copper plates! Clean them like Dirk described it and fix the corners where needed with a droplet of CA. 

 

Thomas

[rtropp]

Thanks Dirk and Thomas,

 

Whew!! I really didn't want to re-plate. 

I will have to work at fine tuning my CA application skill.  Right now it is too clumsy and would get on the plates. Should take a day or two of practice.

Finding the Zapon in the US was a tough search.  Finally found one place that had the liquid in stock.  When the time comes I will test applying it with an air brush.

Dirk, what did you use for a thinner?

 

Thomas, I probably made the process sound worse than it was.  Fact is, I pretty much enjoyed working things out.  Learning to use my hands and tools were two of the reasons I started all this... and it is fun. Heck, since I retired its not like I have a lot else on my plate. 

Three of the things on my "bucket List" were model ship building, learning Penjing, and continuing with my drawing and painting.  It is really great to now have the time for them. 

 

 

 

Richard

Edited October 28, 2014 by rtropp

[rtropp]

I found this set of videos showing the construction and firing of a 24 pounder copy from Vasa. It gives a good feel for the impact on the cannon, how it is forced back, etc.  when fired.

 

http://www.thehistoryblog.com/archives/32981

 

Richard

Edited October 28, 2014 by rtropp

[rtropp]

Dirk, thanks for the CA application tip, will do.

 

Richard

Edited October 28, 2014 by rtropp

[rtropp]

Just a quick update.  The copper plates were fixed using CA and a tiny applicator I found on line that makes it fairly easy to do precise gluing.

I am just trying to learn how to solder in an attempt to create the gudgeon and pintles.  The first attempt was a disaster but, on the positive side, I did not burn myself. 

I am wondering if folks are using a butane pencil torch or a soldering iron.

 

Richard

[rtropp]

Hi,

Well, it might take awhile before I have enough proficiency to solder for my build. I used solder and flux with a pencil torch. I am going to try it again but use paste that comes in an applicator and see if I get anymore control.

 

Meanwhile, I continued work on the pintles and gudgeons using CA.

 

First I wrapped the 1/16th brass strip in the copper used for the hull.

 

 

Next I used CA to attach the wire to the pintle.  Not sure how well the wire pin will hold since the pintle has been coppered, but if it does not I can cut away a narrow strip of copper from the brass where the pin is attached and try again.  

 

 

Before I go much further, I need to make an overall decision about all the copper work.  Dirk suggested testing a mixture of vinegar and salt to darken the copper and using Zapon lacquer to seal it. I decided to test it while working on the pintles. Vinegar and salt treatment is on the left side only while both sides received two coats of Zapon.

 

 

I like the darker, more aged appearance rather than the shiny new copper look, but I am a little worried that I might mess it up when doing the full hull.  

 

I would like feedback on which version other members prefer.  

 

By the way, Dirk, did you use this method on your Syren?

 

Thanks all,

Richard

 

Edited November 13, 2014 by rtropp

[rtropp]

Thanks Dirk, good to know.  As soon as the rudder is done I will move ahead.

 

By the way, what did you use to create the end of the grudgeons where it accepts the pintle pin?  It is so clean looking, and looks much better than just inserting pintle into the bent grudgeon.

 

Richard

[augie]

I have to say that even though I left mine 'bright', I prefer Dirk's method.  Mine has been cased now for  almost 1 1/2 years and it is darkening nicely but Dirk got there faster!

[rtropp]

I thought there would be some tiny part that was soldered in, but it is just solder and then drill a hole for the pintle.  Nice, simple and looks great.

Thanks,

Richard   

Edited November 13, 2014 by rtropp

[rtropp]

Hi all,

I have the pintle and gudgeons finished and the pins are holding in the pintle... I am pleased about that.

 

 

I have formed the eye bolts for the pendants

 

 

But I am not sure how to size the eye bolt.  I looked through the practicum but could not find the section that shows setting up the pendants to the rudder.  Might just be these old eyes are not too good at refocusing after using the magnifiers.

 

Can anyone give me the page number where it is described in Chuck's practicum. I would like to see the parts involved before I attach anything to the rudder.

 

Thanks,

Richard

[rtropp]

Well, it has been awhile since my last update.  I have not been idle as I ran into difficulty with completing the copper plating and the rudder. I was having difficulty replicating the darkening effect I liked on the copper plating.  I finally remixed fresh solution and was more successful. I have to rework the rudder because parts of it started to turn green and I suspect I used too heavy a hand with it.  Also was not thrilled with the plating and would not mind reworking that.

 

Adding to this, I am not satisfied with the pintles and gudgeons. They came out too clumsy looking, so I ordered more material to rework them.  The problem is my lack of experience and skill at soldering.  So I am taking time to practice some more while waiting for replacement parts to arrive.

 

I am not really frustrated by this as I enjoy learning how to use the tools and techniques and find it fun.  I think that is a large part of why I started in the first place.  

 

While waiting for all this to arrive I decided to do some side work that had been on my list for awhile.

 

So I built the following jigs to help with the work.

 

This is a saw table originally made to increase safety, I found it also increases accuracy.

 

 

This vacuum table allows me to mount a sanding drum on the mill and collects all the dust. Along with my Proxxon disk sander, it gives me a lot of flexibility when sanding. There is almost no discernible dust escaping. (Part of my commitment to my wife to control the dust in the house.)

 

 

Once the supplies arrive, I should be able to get back to my Syren.

 

and so it goes...

 

Richard

 

 

[rtropp]

I thought time for an update even though I have not made much progress. Most of the time has been learning to use tools and experimenting.

 

I wanted to try and put a small tube on the gudgeon to accept the Pintle pin.  

I first cut some brass tubing to size. For this operation I had to dump all the work I had shown in my last posting.  In that first set I had the pintles and gudeons wrapped in the copper tape. They looked nice, but when I went to solder on them I found that regardless of tool, torch or iron, wrapping the brass with copper tape was a disaster.  Of course the tape will burn.. Duh.. It also seemed too clumsy to wrap with copper tape after the soldering. I decided to try the  brass strip without any covering.

 

So I re-cut the straps from the brass strip. 

 

Then I cut the tubes 

 

I ended up with a batch of tiny tubes

 

 

I am just learning how to solder and I tried a small pencil torch.  This did not work out for me.  I could not control the soldering enough for a clean joint and without scorching the brass.  So, after a few days of unsuccessfully trying the torch I decided to try a soldering Iron and bought one.

 

This worked out better. I spent a fair amount of time researching (thank goodness for Utube.)  I had to learn the basics, how to prep the iron, how to place the solder, applying enough heat but not too much.

 

This is my set up.

 

 

Not great, but acceptable for the first time.

 

Next I experiment with different ways of coloring, salt and vinegar, blacken it, Liver of Sulphur. 

Here is a comparison of my attempts.

 

 

The darker ones were acceptable (third from top was my final choice.)

 

finally,

 

After placing some faux bolt heads of copper on the Pintles and Gudgeons I treated them and ended up with

 

 

attached to the rudder

 

 

 

Not what I had hoped for so I decided to do it yet again. I want to rebuild the rudder also, I think I can do better.

 

For much of the build I find myself working the parts multiple times until I establish some skill and finally get an acceptable version. Luckily I enjoy the learning and experimenting process.  I guess I am one of those..."Its the journey as much as the destination..." types.

 

So i changed my plan. I read that the straps would have been made of the same type of copper as the hull plates.  Instead of trying to get the brass to look right, I decided to order some copper strips and see how they work out. I found some with the same dimensions.   

 

I am now waiting for the copper strips to arrive so I can evaluate them to see if they will work instead of the brass.

 

and so it goes...

 

Richard

Edited January 22, 2015 by rtropp

[augie]

The use of copper strips would appear to be a great idea.  Looking forward to seeing the results !

[Gahm]

Richard, I think you are making great progress! And don't worry about doing the same part several times until you like it. I do exactly the same thing. Most of the time I call my first (misguided) attempt a prototype  . With more difficult parts it often takes me one or two attempts until I finally know how to do it. And once you have that knowledge it would be a shame not to execute on it. I guess, that's why it's called a hobby  . By the way, I also used copper strips and they worked out fine.

 

Thomas

[dgbot]

I found that this is the best way to learn is trial and error.  At one of my club meetings I gave a hands on demo on silver soldering to some members who requested it.  I was worried because I am no expert.  But the demo went smoothly and one of the members was thrilled that he was able to do the job with my instruction.  Practice makes perfect.  If I had a dollar for every time a botched a job and had to start over I could have retired long ago.

David B

[rtropp]

I ordered what I thought would  be copper strips 1/16 by 1/64. The website listed these as copper.  My receipt listed them as copper.  The items were brass.  So, I am back to searching for a source for the copper strips.  Every source I have found so far only has brass. K&E has copper strips listed but I cannot find any place that carries them.

 

If anyone knows of a source for these I would appreciate it.

 

Meanwhile, I am considering experimenting with the technique used by Ed Tosti on his Young America.  I have some copper sheet and copper tubing, so, what the heck.

 

Richard