Thermopylae by My Fathers Son - or as near as I can get it

[bruce d]

9 minutes ago, My Fathers Son said:

I haven't started cutting anything out yet, I am practicingmy hull construction and planking before attempting the real thing.

 

I'll see what I can do.

👍

[bruce d]

Hope this helps.

 

After opening the link choose 'RELATED DOCUMENTS'

Thermopylae | Ships | Archive & Library | Heritage & Education Centre (lrfoundation.org.uk)

 

Also these:

Edited September 6, 2022 by bruce d

[My Fathers Son]

4 minutes ago, bruce d said:

Hope this helps.

Thermopylae | Ships | Archive & Library | Heritage & Education Centre (lrfoundation.org.uk)

 

 

Hi Bruce,

 

These are David MaGregors drawings, but as you have these as three seperate images, they are much clearer than the single image that I had. Thanks ver much for this, these should make adapting my plans that bit easier and more accurate.

 

Simon

[My Fathers Son]

I am going to have to hope these print a bit clearer as in A4, the Scale in the corner condenses a foot down to 50mm. A2 will not be full size hopefully reduce the scope for error when adapting the scale.

 

That link you put in Bruce is an incredible resource. It would appear that in September 1890, plans to convert her to a sail assisted steamer were drawn up,

I dont think i want to go down this route, there are a couple of deck plans that should prove usefull and plenty of reading. Thank you Bruce, this will keep me busy for a while.

 

Simon

 

[bruce d]

6 minutes ago, My Fathers Son said:

 this will keep me busy for a while.

 

I'll bet! Glad to help, looking forward to seeing your Thermopylae.

[My Fathers Son]

Continuing with my practice hull I now have at least 4 strakes on each side. These are cut 3mm strips of 1/32 basswood so there is some variation in sizes and unfortunately my source blank is not long enough to provide full length planks.

 

I chose to proceed without any infill pieces and have bent the plank without wetting or heating the plank. This has allowed the natural resistance of the plank to shape the twist and has only required  the slightest of pressure from a clamp will the glue set to give this result.

 

I only have .78mm of timber so there is a limit to the amount of sanding. So to create an acceptable finish, some filler would be necessary, but I think I am getting the hang of this.

 

You might notice the special adaptation to the stem, this is Kobi's contribution, every time I get up and leave the room, I find him biting the front end.

[Keith Black]

 Ask Kobi if he'd like his tail feathers trimmed. 

[My Fathers Son]

I have put it away for this evening now, I will be trying to get some of these drawings into a CAD program, if only in 2D, as these only print out very small and loose a lot of detail when you try to print out larger.

 

Also, the very sad news of the passing of Queen Elizabeth II this afternoon is dominating the news in the UK so want something I can did in and out of.

 

Simon

[rwiederrich]

15 minutes ago, My Fathers Son said:

I have put it away for this evening now, I will be trying to get some of these drawings into a CAD program, if only in 2D, as these only print out very small and loose a lot of detail when you try to print out larger.

 

Also, the very sad news of the passing of Queen Elizabeth II this afternoon is dominating the news in the UK so want something I can did in and out of.

 

Simon

Good to have a model to work out issues and techniques on....Good job.

 

I'm so sorry to hear about the Queen...I pray a smooth transition will occur and your heart will be comforted during this great loss.  She was well liked...even over here(across the pond) in the states.

 

Rob

[Keith Black]

 Simon, to you and all our UK members, my deepest sympathy. While we don't have kings and queens here in the US (other than those who think themselves such) she was like our Queen also. She reigned as Queen my whole 75 years and today, I am deeply saddened.

 

 The Queen is dead. Long live the King. 

[mtaylor]

Keith is right... she'll be missed by many of us over here.   A sad day today.

 

 

[Mirabell61]

Very nice clipper drawing views Simon, thanks for sharing these

 

Nils

[Snug Harbor Johnny]

    You show initiative to do a scratch build ... perhaps with the greatest satisfaction once complete - and the greatest learning experience.  Don't forget the distinctive curve of Thermopylae's  'Aberdeen' bow - and the outward angle at the stern.  The Cyril Hulme model is also from scratch (with input from surviving crew members).  I note on that example that anchor chains go quite far back on deck before descending below deck.  The gunwales are wide enough to mount the deadeyes without protruding channels - ditto for a similar model in the Aberdeen museum.

[Roger Pellett]

A suggestion for building the hull of this demanding model.  I would add carved wooden blocks to help define the shape of bow and stern.  At the bow,  the planking can run over a carved block at either side of the keel.  The stern is more problematic.  You might want to terminate the planking by running it into into a rabbit at the forward end of a carved stern block.  

 

Roger

[My Fathers Son]

On 9/9/2022 at 4:19 PM, Roger Pellett said:

A suggestion for building the hull of this demanding model.  I would add carved wooden blocks to help define the shape of bow and stern.  At the bow,  the planking can run over a carved block at either side of the keel.  The stern is more problematic.  You might want to terminate the planking by running it into into a rabbit at the forward end of a carved stern block.  

 

Roger

Thanks for you suggestions Roger, I had come to the same conclusion as part of this rather steep learning curve. However, as the keel is only 3/32inch thick I was not sure how much of a rabbit I cut cut without compromising the structural strength of the keel. 

I did contemplate adding a carved block to the stern, but as this was a practice piece, I wanted to explore what would occur without it. I did add additional shaped parts below the rear of the stern as I knew that I would not be able to bend the plank without it.

I am not totally disappointed with the natural twist of the plank achieved and I am not convinced I would have carved the same shape in a balsa block.

The practice hull I have been working on is from plans for Cutty Sark.  The images above are drawings I am drafting based on David MacGregors drawings above. Whilst those posted by Bruce are three separate images, they are still only small images and when you try to print them to larger papers, they become pixilated and you lose detail.  Naturally, the line drawing prints out a hull measuring just under 7 inches. I have managed to enlarge these to just under 10 inches. So a boat about 65 metres would be 25 cm or 1:260 or there abouts. 

Before anyone mentions CAD, I tried Autodesk360, FreeCAD and GIMP before resorting to pencil and tracing paper.

I made enough mistakes on my last attempt for me to contemplate a second practice, this time using my own plans.

 

Simon

 

[My Fathers Son]

So, this morning I copied my sheet of bulkheads and proceeded to cut these out and immediately noticed how inaccurate they were. 

there was barely a single image that was a mirror image. However, i had included a centre line on every image so i cut out the image in a general block and folded it down the centre line, decided on the best profile and cut through both sides. So once unfolded, whether the cut was on the line or not, the stencil was a mirror image.

i glued these to a sheet of 2mm Lite Ply.

I am now in the process of cutting these out but am again, after only three, 17-19, noticing what a bad job I did on drawing these up. No 19 is not even full height.

Rather disappointed with this, technical drawing was one of my best subjects at school.  OK, I had proper drawing boards and all the right equipment and I did this on a A4 cutting board on my coffee side table, but I was only tracing a few lines for goodness sake.

Going to have to see how the next few go before deciding if this is worthwhile continuing. 

 

Simon

[mtaylor]

Simon, do you have a CAD type of program?  Even CorelDraw has one.   You could scan the lower sized prints, trace them in CAD and then enlarge without getting the "jaggies".

[Roger Pellett]

Simon,

 

You do have a drawing board,  the plywood sheet that you are using to cut the bulkheads.  I would suggest that you visit an office supply store (Stationer?) to buy an inexpensive French curve.  You can use this to draw your bulkheads without “jiggles.”

 

On a broader note, you are trying to transform a 2D drawing into a 3D object.  250+- years ago shipbuilders developed the system of “Lofting,” to solve this problem.  Lofting involved redrawing the ship’s entire lines drawing full sized on a large flat floor.  The purpose was to check all views to ensure that everything matched.  This would ensure a fair hull; one with smoothly flowing lines.  Full sized patterns for the various structural elements could then be developed from  the lines drawn on the floor.  Note that every time that the lines drawing is redrawn, including the lofting process, subtle changes in the hull’s shape occur, as the draftsman or loftsman adjusts things to ensure that the 3D hull will be fair. There is, therefore, no “definitive” model of an old wooden ship as each draftsman’s interpretation will be slightly different.  CAD does not eliminate this issue.  It just means that the computer is making these adjustments.  In your case, you are making bulkheads without doing the lofting.  This will likely cause problems throughout your build.

 

So, what to do?  First of all, start with a good set of drawings that you are not trying to expand with a computer printer.  A set of lofted drawings exists in the MacGregor archives.  I believe that they can be bought from the SS Great Britain People.  If CAD is your thing, get the drawing scanned and lift and print the bulkhead shapes.  If like me, you are not interested in using CAD trace the bulkheads directly from the drawing using your French curve.  Tracing half a bulkhead and folding it to cut it is fine.  An architectural printing house that makes contact prints, not photographic prints can make copies and even change the scale.  Making smaller scale copies from large scale drawings is preferable to going the other way as minor drawing errors are reduced rather than expanded.

 

Roger

[My Fathers Son]

Thanks Roger, I have been looking for a French curve and a long time ago, back in the dark ages, I had a flexible ruler, darned if I can find one now though. Good stationers are hard to find these days.

 

I have looked at the inventory of the drawings held by the SS Great Britain people and there are quite a few. Some show the measurements of the size of the plans but not all. It was not obvious how you purchase copies but prints were very expensive. 

 

As I have just been made redundant I am back to counting the pennies again. 

 

I have cut out the rest of the bulkheads and yes, there are errors, but this will show me the difference in the hull shape between  CS and T both forward and aft, I can see that from the bulkheads on their own but it should be much more obvious. 

i have drafted a keel and lower deck, hopefully these are a bit more accurate.

I suspect that the lower deck will require shaping and the main deck will have to wait until the mast mounts are in place.

 

Simon

 

 

 

[My Fathers Son]

19 hours ago, mtaylor said:

Simon, do you have a CAD type of program?  Even CorelDraw has one.   You could scan the lower sized prints, trace them in CAD and then enlarge without getting the "jaggies".

Hi, yes, I have Autodesk360, FreeCAD, GIMP, I have even tried Sketchup.

 

I can import the file/image into a layer, create a new layer and try to trace the image, but the image I am tracing disappears. I try setting the top layer to transparent but it just doesn't work for me. 

 

Last time I tried I got to the point where I wanted to throw my laptop across the room so I gave up and resorted to pen and paper.

 

Simon

[mtaylor]

That is frustrating to say the least.  I'm not sure why the first layer (the scanned print) would disappear.   I'm using CorelDraw and my scan is the first layer and then I open a second on top of it.  When done, I close/delete the first layer.  I should add that I'm not using "bitmap" for the new layer bur "vector".

 

Try this... pull in the scan print.  Make sure you're using "vector" and not "bitmap" for settings.  I assume that in your testing you were.   Draw on top of it directly.  Use a different color pen so you can see what you've done.  Then try to delete the scan print.  That might work.  If it does, then you can enlarge the drawing you did.   

[My Fathers Son]

So, the rain has taken a breather, and I am able to sit in the garden. All the bulkheads are reunited in order and pressed together, I have sanded of the most obvious errors. They are beginning to reveal the more elegant shape of the hull. I will still need to fair the fore and aft bulkheads once in place on the keel and that is my next piece.

Simon 

[My Fathers Son]

Can someone check my math for me please. I have managed to import the Basic Lines image into FreeCAD and worked out how to change the size of the image. I havent worked out how to draw the parts over the top yet, but I will if it kills me (and it probably will). That asside, I need to get the image the right size.  The image very helpfully has a scale chart on the top left corner of the image showing 4 blocks of 10ft, and the drawing is divided into 10ft sections. We know she is 212ft (or 215ft in some reports) and the last line on the right is at the point of the Knights Head so that would make sense for a boat of about 215 feet.

 

So what I want is to be able to do is to set the size of the image to the required scale. 1:96 scale is my scale of choice. 1ft is 30.46cm so 10ft is 304.6cm and at scale 1ft should be 31.75mm.

 

All I have to do is calculate the neccesary pixle no necessary on both the X and Y plane and hey presto, I have a drawing to the right scale. Even if I cant draw the plans from this, I can take all the necessary mesurements from the resultant image as that function is available.

 

Simon

 

[Keith Black]

 Simon, see the below. 

 

 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_scale_model_sizes

 

 At 1:96 scale, one foot = .125 inches or 3.175 mm or .3175 cm 

 

 "1ft is 30.46cm so 10ft is 304.6cm"  Simon, I don't understand where these numbers come from? 

Edited September 15, 2022 by Keith Black

[My Fathers Son]

On 9/15/2022 at 1:38 PM, Keith Black said:

 

 

 "1ft is 30.46cm so 10ft is 304.6cm"  Simon, I don't understand where these numbers come from? 

Hi Keith,

These are 1:1 conversions that you get if you type the question in Google "what is 1ft in centimetres?". 

 

But thank you, you confirmed my math was on track. I have adjusted the size of the imported image so that the scale board and bulkhead spacing is as close to 31.75mm as I can get it. This results in a hull approximately 650mm long. Every time I change these sizes, I risk the ratio between length and height, so I think I will settle for this.

 

Still trying to get the rest of the program to work.

 

Simon.

[Keith Black]

7 hours ago, My Fathers Son said:

These are 1:1 conversions that you get if you type the question in Google "what is 1ft in centimetres?". 

 Simon, this is where you had me going because one foot = 30.48 cm or 304.8 mm. I figured you were trying to convert from 1:10 scale to 1:96 scale but the 30.46 cm figure had me scratching my head. 

Edited September 17, 2022 by Keith Black

[My Fathers Son]

Hi Keith,

 

Glad that's cleared up, lol, I wish I could afford better drawings but it is what it is. With a boat that is 212 ft or 215 ft and a drawing with a scale marker that is one size and a drawing with 10ft markers that are a different 10ft to the scale marker, I am surprised that I have come up with a hull that comes up at a scale any way close to what a 1:96 scale hull should be.

So on this occasion, with or without an .02 variable in the interpretation was never going to make a significant difference. 

Thanks again for keeping a weather eye on me.

 

Simon

[Keith Black]

My pleasure, Simon. 

[My Fathers Son]

They say you cant teach an old dog new tricks; well this old dog is having a go. I have lost track of the number of times I have loaded an image and the bleeping program has deleted it, or just as I am saving an hours work, one of my four legged assistants walk accross the keyboard and the whole thing goes haywire, but I may be getting somewhere.

I started by importing the basic lines image and resized the image to give me a hull that would be 645mm (27") long from the sternpost to where the Knightshead should be. There is a marker on the plan that suggests that this is supposed to me 210 feet full size. By scaling the image to 27" this should equate to about 1:95. I set this as the Vertical Image plan. I then used this to draft each bulkhead 1 to 20, the Keel, which also records the mast locations as recorded on that drawing. There was no information on that plan to plan the deck levels or where the aft and fore decks start and finish.

 

So, I took the image that had the deck layout, made a copy and cropped it just to include the deck layout. I then imported the image on the horizontal plane. You have to locate two common points on each plane and then change the second image size so that the measurements between the points is the same in both images. In the image above, this has been done but I had not yet alighned the images so they were lined up, hence the mast locations do not tally.

 

Simon 

 

[My Fathers Son]

FreeCAD is a finiky programme and its a steep learning curve. I have had to start again on more than one occasion, each time incorparating what I have learnt in between. This is the latest attempt.

You will noyice that I trimmed the imported images so that they only included the lines specific to the plane they related to. Once I have created the basic Bulkheads I will be able to create the keel and this will show me where the bulkheads intersect and I will be able to remove sections from both the keel and each bulkhead accordingly. Similarly, I will design in the levels for the decks and remove the excess from each piece. Its the way FreeCAD works apparently. A long way to go yet.

 

Simon