Wasa by md1400cs - FINISHED - Corel - 1:75

[Baker]

Michael

 

There is something I'm curious about.

 

Somewhere I've read that the four round holes in the transom served as seats of ease.

But on your model there are four cannons through these holes.

 

Went looking in your buildlog
And found this (old) photo from the transom

( i think page 30)

 

[md1400cs]

Denis: thanks you are always so kind with your posts (;-)

 

Patrick: I used Landström for this bit. The only trouble I had was trying to locate falconets that matched the drawing from the book - I did not. I don't remember if F. Hocker mentions this in his books. As always thanks for your continued interest in this build.

[Baker]

Michael,

 

Thank you for the explanation and photos.
These holes are at such a vertical angle that they are indeed more suitable for cannons instead of seats of ease.

[md1400cs]

Hi Mates,

 

Continuing by installing the bowsprit mast. While deciding what size rope to use noticed my novice lack of rigging planning ahead. Easy fix (;-)

 

Also needed to decide if I should use tarred rope or not. There seems to not be a right answer with this.

The 1/10^th installed tarred, and the 1:1 not. Clayton’s also did not use tarred. That said; the rope that I installed has a “shiny” tinge to it – not too comfortable with its look.  Here are some preliminary shots of the work so far.

 

PS: It would seem that these mast lashings, given the amount of moisture they receive, should be tarred?

 

Cheers,

 

[Ulises Victoria]

Hello Michael. Really good looking rigging here mate.

 

Congrats

 

Ulises

[EJ_L]

I've always made those particular lashings tarred as I agree with you in the amount of water they would be exposed to on a regular basis would justify them being tarred. In my understanding of rigging, with a few exceptions, unless it is running rigging used to make something move, it would be tarred for protection. 

 

As always, great work and nice clean rigging. Those bowsprits with the spritsail masts really make a statement when installed. 

[Tallshiptragic]

Yes all these lashings are tarred on sea going vessels. Even running rigging is covered in a tallow mix to prevent fast rot. However even with tallow, running rigging is replaced quite often.

[woodo]

Hi Michael,

 

The issue of the guns on the weatherdeck and a lack of recoil-space......keeps frustrating me..........

What if they let the guns NOT recoil, secured them as tight as they could and fired them without recoil....?

They have then to retract the guns manual , possible a bit in the direction of the bow front or stern to

clear the muzzle.

The Corel might be a bit out of size, but the picture of the Vasa showed also very little room.

This issue can also be noted on other ships from that period.

Will dig deeper into this issue, must be a reasonable explaination I would think.

 

[Richard Griffith]

Regarding the guns, the technology of the Wasa period was such that the recoil was less violent than in later periods.  The metallurgy was improving but the guns could not be overloaded without risking rupture.  The gunpowder recipes were also improving but were still slow burning by later standards. and therefor less explosive.  Thus full recoil room was not always provided. 

 

So how did they reload if the muzzle could not be brought inboard?  The loader had to sit astride the barrel outside the hull!  This obviously exposed him to enemy fire, especially when within musket range and all the combatants knew this, so boarding was still much favored. 

 

The English in 1588 knew they could not possibly defeat the Spanish by boarding so their tactics were to use their great guns at a distance.  The Spanish had great guns too but their ships were slower.  Fire ships and horrible weather completed the defeat.  

 

As ship design improved, adequate recoil room was provided and reloading could all be completed inboard.                                       Duff   

[popeye the sailor]

I'd go tarred too.........but such a shame to remove such a nice bit of work there.     the gammoning is lashed in place quite nicely      sweet looking bow spirit!

[EJ_L]

I have heard the same as Richard stated about having to either sit astride the barrel (though that would not be fun when hot!) or having to lean out over the bulwarks to clean and reload. This was obviously very dangerous but they did what they had to back then as it was normal. With that method to reload and not having a large recoil, smaller deck space would be acceptable.

 

In addition to metallurgy still in early development, so too were these large ships. Learning how to build multiple deck ships and what requirements were needed for all the was still in the trial and error stages. Each ship would make an adjustment here and there but there were no set rules of what worked. I'm sure if Vasa had actually seen combat the narrow deck space would have been noted as an issue and possibly changed by narrowing the cargo hatches during a refit. 

[woodo]

Rirchard and EJ, thanks a lot for your contributions. I feel comfortable now, knowing that it is what it is, and the models are not too far from reality.

 

Thanks again,

 

Koen.

[Tallshiptragic]

Very correct on those points. Sailing in Duyfken we had the same thoughts. When rigged the guns on the waist could be loaded inboard, however the guns under the poop deck and especially under the f'cstle could only come back just over a metre  leaving their muzzles well outside the port opening. We only had two firing guns onboard Duyfken the rest were mock ups - and we moved them around the different ports to see how they would be loaded and fired... and th only solution was to load from the channels on the hull. Which is fine on a replica in modern day but I would not have wanted to be the gunner back then, though as previously said it's what they had to do, so it was done. 

[md1400cs]

Ulises, Zoltan – thanks - always nice when you drop in. Your kind posts are also very encouraging indeed.

 

EJ, Anton, Denis – Agreed will re-lash sprit mast with tarred ropes. Waiting for a new shipment from Chuck (his ropes and blocks are so perfect)

 

Mates – yes the cannon/deck dimensions are in fact a bit odd indeed. Woodo if you discover more info that would be interesting.

 

Duff Thanks for sharing the historical info that you posted - !!

 

Thanks also EJ, Anton for the added discussion on this topic.

 

Coxswain Thanks so much for all of the likes  super appreciated (:-) 

 

Regarding Vasa weather deck canon long lengths I found this as a possible answer – maybe the canon builders had done some

physical testing to determine what the link just below answers.

 

https://www.physicsforums.com/threads/cannon-length-why-does-it-matter.195217/   

 

The higher caliber cannons below did not need such long barrels - so it seems

=========================

 

Always thankful for all of your visits, likes, and comments

 

Cheers,

 

 

[Baker]

The length of a gun barrel does matter.

 

An "modern" example  is  a russian WW 2 small anti tank kanon.

The 45mm model 1937 modernised in 1942 to the model 1942 by making the barrel longer.

A longer barrel and higher load of pouwder gives a higher muzzle velocity.

This gives a longer range and a more flat trajectory to a projectile that has  same weight.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/45_mm_anti-tank_gun_M1937_(53-K)

Muzzle velocity	760 m/s (2,493 ft/s)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/45_mm_anti-tank_gun_M1942_(M-42)

Muzzle velocity	870 m/s (2,854 ft/s)

 

So these long cannons on the upper deck could be used to hit an object at a longer distance.

The gun crew  could " safely " lean out over the bulwarks to clean and reload  them offboard as they were still away from the enemy

 

I hope my explanation in "google english" Is understandable.

And i may be completely wrong with this theory.

But this is the thinking of a military modeler. Who has more experience with anti tank guns than with 17th century shipcannons.

 

[md1400cs]

Patrick,

 

Thanks for your insight - this topic has been of interest to us. Appreciate the links as well - they do clear up confusions that I certainly had.

 

Cheers

[Salty Sea Dog]

You know, every time I look at you detail shots, I have to wonder if I should take up origami or beer drinking instead! Your build gets more stunning with each change and addition. Fantastic work Michael!

[md1400cs]

Buck - you have had one beer too many THANKS so much - that said (;-) your detailed work is so over the top. Enjoy everyone from buck's log (I need to share). You have been one of my visions

indeed. I hope to realize your detail work eventually - probably not !! 

[Salty Sea Dog]

Thanks for the kind words Michael! You are doing amazing things at 1:75 though!! 

[fmodajr]

Michael,

 

Catching up on your log today.

I really enjoy your determination and attention to the smallest detail!

Great job!

 

Frank

 

[lambsbk]

Wow...Buck - I had no idea. I'm checking your builds now. As Michael says - amazing detail.

 

Dave

[md1400cs]

Hi Mates,

 

Minor update, in a diff area, I’m still waiting to receive needed ropes from Chuck (snail mail –grrr J  )

 

So installed one of the anchors. Positioning will evolve as will - how they are attached.

 

Found a jpg that visually showed how to attach the rope.

 

Used Landström’s drawings as my guide from his The Royal Warship VASA.

 

 

Some general pics

 

 

Here are the new tools that I now use to make the needed rings. This has thankfully evolved from my early attempts at making these rings. Now so much easier. Using aluminium 

tubing that is much softer than brass - though I do like this tool for brass works very well. Both tools found on eBay. 

 

 

Also working on making needed Euphroe blocks (Thanks EJ for your help on this)

 

Cheers,

 

 

[lambsbk]

These hand tools look very interesting. What are the tools called Michael?

 

Dave

[md1400cs]

Dave here you go

 

Tube pliers

 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/TUBE-CUTTING-PLIERS-HOLD-CUT-TUBES-RODS-3-SLOTS-2-10MM-HOLD-SQUARE-ROUND-/221178520670?hash=item337f44645e:m:mSLbCrYHyC5E5x6ThaElXhw

 

hole pliers

 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Mazbot-7-Hole-Punch-Pliers-5-SIZE-Jewelry-Metal-Leather-HIGH-GRADE-HPP06-/280775730493?hash=item415f89a53d:g:mqgAAOSwN6JY~8CG

 

[glennreader]

I really like the way you use the colour of the material, only using paint to enhance the decoration and make it stand out.

 

I have been thinking about getting some of those hole pliers. It would probably be a good idea to get some in advance of them being required.

 

Glenn

[baskerbosse]

The rigging is looking great.

I'm not sure if I mentioned it earlier, but could make sense when researching rigging details; The Vasa was rigged by a scotsman. Looking at the bone model of Norske Løve in Rosenborg castle Copenhagen which was also rigged by a scotsman, you can spot some striking similarities.

 

Regarding gun recoil;

Indeed older guns would have been less powerful than later ones,

both in terms of the effectiveness of the gunpowder, bit also in terms of metal strength of the barrel.

As pointed out above, a longer gun barrel helps here, the reason for this is that the projectile accelerates for a longer time (acceleration ceases the moment the projectile leaves the barrel)

These (weatherdeck)cannons have way less recoil than the main guns, they are also lighter and can be maneouvred easier, which could explain the need for less deckspace for these guns (-still, Corel has too little deckspace and oversize guns here. They also have bulkier deck gratings. On the Vasa, the deck grating is flush with the deck with only the coaming portruding)

As to the point that the weatherdeck guns also could be loaded from the outside, it may be worth noting that the channels are located just below these guns.

 

There is an interesting mix of new and old in the armament, even seen in the complement of 24 pounders;

Gustav II Adolf drove a modernisation and standardisation of artillery in the army as well as the navy.

A ship didn't have 'its own' guns in earlier days, it was equipped ad hoc with what was necessary and available, leading to a mix of all sorts of calibers that needed to be carried and also supplied to the right guns for battle.

All 24 pounders were new and of standardized modern lighter style, except for two.

It is interesting to compare these two variants: the old 24 pounders are about 37% longer and twice the weight of the new ones.

Weatherdeck was armed with a mix of older cannons of weights nearly all the way down to 100kg.

 

The weatherdeck represents the older armament style while the main gun decks represents new and modern. Lots of space here, including an unusual amount of headroom compared to other ships of the day, which in hindsight might not gave been such a good idea..

[popeye2sea]

Thanks for the tip on the tools, Michael.  That is just what I was searching for to make thimbles for my rigging.

 

Regards,

[md1400cs]

 

Baskerbosse – thanks for your insights as well as taking the time to post- Very interesting. Your Vasa knowledge is appreciated.

 

Karl – may I ask for your assistance? I’m at the point where I need to decide on the sails. I want to try making some, and then decide if they will (in my case) improve on this build.

 

I have been looking at yours and Frank’s logs for ideas and help.

 

May I ask how you added that great detail? – see your photo. -Thanks in advance Karl -you are always so helpful.

 

Mates, as always thanks for your likes and visits.

 

Cheers,

[Karleop]

Hola Michael:

Sure, if I can help you in anyway don´t doubt to ask.  All the stitches were made with my wife sewing machine after marking previously the lines.  About your specific question, for that sail i didn´t put any reinforcement, but I put it at the foremast lower sail. (picture) I took several pictures of the sails and don´t remember which of them I sent it to you, please tell me  if you want any in particular.

 

Saludos, Karl

[md1400cs]

Karl,

 

Thanks for responding - I was wondering about that detail in the mizzen sail.