Protocol for sails

[Scratchie]

I'm not new to wood modeling (over 20+years), and prefer to build scale models.  However, I am relatively new to tall ship modeling, and I'm doing research before staring my next project, an AL San Francisco II galleon (I assume this model is only "semi-scale", but it's a starting point for a larger, RC tall ship sometime in the future).  I have a question about sails:

 

When building a scale tall ship, is it customary to have the sails furled or unfurled?  In the tall ship modeling world, does having furled sails signify anything, something like ship lost in battle...

 

Thanks, 

Scratchie

[mtaylor]

I believe sails/no sails, furled/unfurled are modeler's choice, Scratchie.   Some leave sails off due to complexity and also hiding deck details.  A lot of variables as to why or why not but I've never heard the "lost in battle" one.

[Ian B]

I have built four ships in the last four years..first full sail , second and third no sails and currently furled sails...so even I can't decide lol 🤣🤣.  Do what you think aesthetically looks good to you for your choice of subject.. 

[vossy]

1 hour ago, mtaylor said:

I believe sails/no sails, furled/unfurled are modeler's choice, Scratchie.   Some leave sails off due to complexity and also hiding deck details.  A lot of variables as to why or why not but I've never heard the "lost in battle" one.

Mark,  I totally agree with you that the sails furled/unfurled option is totally a modellers own choice.. Personally I like ships with no sails due to a number of reasons including cost and quality of sails and cloth available, and mostly the fact that they tend to hide many hours of very fiddley rigging work. However a thought occurred that maybe the modelling community could start a trend that was begun by sculptors of soldiers and their horses. In my country, Australia, drive through any town, big or small, and you will see statues of soldiers on their horses, mainly WW1 era. A statue that depicts a soldier on a horse in which the horse has all 4 of its feet on the ground denotes that both rider and horse survived the battle. If the horse has 1 foot off the ground it denotes that the rider was injured in the battle, and if the horse is rearing or has 2 feet off the ground it denotes that the rider was killed in the battle. Anyway, bit of trivia I guess.

 

Chris. 

[allanyed]

As said above, the choice is yours, but

There is no cloth that is to scale at 1:48 or smaller nor a method of sewing that is to scale at these sizes.  Kits such as yours sometime provide sails and if you really want sails, seriously consider setting them aside and making your own out of a non-woven material such as silk span or an ultra high thread count cloth that will at least get closer to scale weave and appearance. 

There are many posts here at MSW, You Tube videos (www.youtube.com/watch?v=g_m_VWzk4w8) and an excellent printed booklet at SeaWatch books by David Antscherl on sail making.

 

Go to the RMF Collections website and look at the hundreds of contemporary rigged models. The vast majority of these classic rigged models have no sails.

 

Whether to add or not to add sails -  there is no right or wrong, only what you would like.

 

Allan

Edited November 3, 2022 by allanyed

[mtaylor]

3 hours ago, vossy said:

Mark,  I totally agree with you that the sails furled/unfurled option is totally a modellers own choice.. Personally I like ships with no sails due to a number of reasons including cost and quality of sails and cloth available, and mostly the fact that they tend to hide many hours of very fiddley rigging work. However a thought occurred that maybe the modelling community could start a trend that was begun by sculptors of soldiers and their horses. In my country, Australia, drive through any town, big or small, and you will see statues of soldiers on their horses, mainly WW1 era. A statue that depicts a soldier on a horse in which the horse has all 4 of its feet on the ground denotes that both rider and horse survived the battle. If the horse has 1 foot off the ground it denotes that the rider was injured in the battle, and if the horse is rearing or has 2 feet off the ground it denotes that the rider was killed in the battle. Anyway, bit of trivia I guess.

 

Chris. 

 

Chris,

Vossy,

That seems pretty universal to me.  We do that here in the States also.

[Dr PR]

There is also the question of how much rigging do you want to do, and how accurate it will be.

 

Sailing vessels have two types of rigging, standing and running. The standing rigging is fixed in place, and rarely adjusted. It takes the forces on the masts and transfers them to the hull. It is usually dark brown or black because it is tarred to protect the ropes from the weather.

 

Running rigging is used primarily to adjust the sails. It is light brown or tan, and runs through blocks and sheaves.

 

Much of the running rigging is attached to the sails, so if you have no sails much/most of this rigging is not in place. Consequently the rigging can look pretty sparse. So if you intend to fully rig the model you pretty much need the sails. However some of the running rigging can be installed and belayed as if in preparation for hoisting the sails.

 

Whether the sails are furled or not is your decision. Sailing ships rarely set every inch of canvas. Often they ran with only a few sails set. It depended upon the wind and weather. Topsails were set with light wind, but hauled in if the winds were really strong to avoid capsizing in sudden gusts. And in battle the courses (lowest and largest sails) were furled or brailed (hoisted to the yards but not tied to the yards) to clear for action.

 

So what do you want to do?

[GrandpaPhil]

I personally like sails.  

It adds something to the model, for me at least.  So, I make sails for all my models (I like 1/72 scale models, generally speaking).

 

Having said that, it’s a lot of work and sometimes they come out right, sometimes they don’t.

 

I just bought the sail making supplement from Seawatch Books, to learn how to make sails from silk span.  The test model is going to be my 1/200 Solferino.

 

I sewed the other ones I’ve made for my other models.

 

 

 

[allanyed]

45 minutes ago, GrandpaPhil said:

I just bought the sail making supplement from Seawatch Books, to learn how to make sails from silk span.

Hi Phillip

You will be very pleased with the results as they will be pretty much to scale, which is as you know from your own experience, impossible with cloth and sewing at scales smaller than about 1:24.  

Allan

[Lieste]

One detail that seems is often not correctly implemented is the yards position for topsail and topgallants, if the sails are furled or removed. These would usually be lowered when the sails are not set, and hoisted as the sails are set. To my eye, the rig looks wrong if the yards are hoisted yet bare.

[allanyed]

On 11/4/2022 at 1:52 PM, Lieste said:

One detail that seems is often not correctly implemented is the yards position for topsail and topgallants, if the sails are furled or removed.

I agree, but now this has me wondering, when the sails are bent and furled or unbent , what is the purpose of lowering the topsail or topgallant yards?    I realize this was done, but why?  The Elements and Practice of Rigging and Seamanship addresses a lot of things, including such details as the process of unbending a topsail properly but there is no mention of the purpose of raising or lowering the yards that I have been able to find so far.   His description for unbending the topsail on page 336 is detailed and pretty interesting----- FIRST cast off the points of the reefs, keeping fast the earings; then furl the sail, and cast off the rope bands, which make fast round the sail, clear of the gaskets. After this cast off the lee earings, and haul the lee side of the sail into the top; then haul in the weather side. Now unbend the reef tackle pendents, bunt-lines, and bow-lines; bight the sail snugly up together; and send it down by the clue-lines to windward or leeward, as most convenient.

Allan

Edited November 6, 2022 by allanyed

[Lieste]

Relevant section on reefing from the online textbook of seamanship:
https://www.hnsa.org/manuals-documents/age-of-sail/textbook-of-seamanship/reefing/

 

also:
https://www.hnsa.org/manuals-documents/age-of-sail/textbook-of-seamanship/making-and-taking-in-sail/

Edited November 4, 2022 by Lieste

[Dr PR]

Allan,

 

In some cases instead of sending crew aloft to furl a sail high on the mast the yard is lowered to the deck to take down the sail. This can be done faster and with fewer crew, and it reduces topside weight. This was common with topgallants (or upper topsails) on topsail schooners and royals on larger square rigged ships.

 

As I understand it the sail was bent to the spar and furled to it with ropes (gaskets) while on deck. The spar was hoisted aloft (on the lee side) by one end (vertically) and then the lower end of the spar was raised so the spar was horizontal. All the lines (lifts, braces and clues) were handled on deck. Then the gaskets were removed and the sail unfurled. This could be done by one person aloft.

 

Also the gaff topsails on schooners were often raised and lowered on yards instead of trying to furl them aloft. Again, it required a smaller crew. The ability to lower topsails quickly was especially important on vessels with extreme sail area aloft when the wind suddenly changed. I have read several accounts of vessels capsizing when sudden squalls caught them abeam with a lot of canvas high on the masts.

[allanyed]

In some cases instead of sending crew aloft to furl a sail high on the mast the yard is lowered to the deck to take down the sail.

Lowering the yards past the stays, etc must have been a  challenge in itself and hardly worth the effort.  

Allan

Edited November 5, 2022 by allanyed

[Lieste]

The halyard is only bringing the yard down to the reefed height of the sail/in proximity to the tops/crosstrees, not all the way to the deck in the document referred to above, and this is the condition shown in various paintings and with the Constitution or modern Hermione's topgallants over set topsails in hundreds of videos and photographs, as well as a number of the early photographs of active ships.

While the yard could be struck down, along with topmasts and royals (and this was sometimes done to secure the vessel before a storm), the procedure for reefing and making or taking in sail given in the manual doesn't describe unbending the sling, only lowering the yard on it's spar. The top is where the sheets and clews are handled when the sail is reefed, to neaten the canvas and to fold it into it's condition for reefing or furling. Lowering the yard also reduces the motion of the yard in a sea even if the vessel continues to pitch and roll at an undiminished amplitude - just a shorter arm for the motion.

Keeping the furled sail at the tops/crosstrees, rather than hauled up makes getting men onto the yard from the top an easier and faster task, so the gaskets can be loosened more rapidly and the sail set and hauled more rapidly than if it were hauled to just below the cross trees above. Striking down the spars and yards is quite obviously a slower task again, with far more adjustment to the rig to get the relevant sail re-bent.

[popeye2sea]

Lowering the yards for reefing or shortening sail is a totally different animal than striking the entire yard or setting a sail flying by bending the sail to its yard on deck and hoisting the entire yard aloft from the deck or the top.

Sending the entire yard down was usually reserved for upper yards only (topgallants and above). Topsail yards being far too heavy to allow this procedure.

 

Reefing or shortening sail by lowering the yard along its mast is a holdover from the days before reef points and foot ropes.  Under the older method to shorten sail you lower the yard and then unlace the bonnet from the bottom of the sail.  With the newer method the reef band is pulled up to the yard and gathered under the yard. This is the direct cause for foot ropes coming into use and also is the reason the lower yards (courses) were no longer lowered at all and remain at a fixed height.

 

There are also the additional benefits of reducing top hamper and easier access by the crew as mentioned by others above.

 

Regards,

[Dr PR]

I don't know when the practice of raising and lowering the topmost yards and sails became common, but nearly all references I have seen talk about topsail schooners, and then only the uppermost yards and sails. Schooners had small crews and it took just a few men to raise and lower the yard and sail. Only one man was needed aloft to unfurl a square sail. Gaff sails and spar gaff sails are regularly raised and lowered from the deck with no one going aloft.

 

To help with controlling the yard as it was raised and lowered a line (horse? Sorry I don't recall the name right now) was attached to the forward side of the mast near the top and at the base of the mast on deck. The yard was secured to the line with an eye that rode on the line and kept the yard under control. This is mentioned in several references I have.

 

I have thought about this a lot and the yard needed only a halliard and sheets as the angle of the upper topsail/topgallant/royal (whichever was highest) was controlled by the braces of the yard below it. But still the sheets had to be run through and over all the other lines below and it must have taken an experienced crew to manage this. It is possible that the sails didn't have sheets. After the spar and furled sail were raised to just above the lower spar the clews could be rigged to the lower yard arm. Then the sail could be unfurled and the yard hauled up with the halliard.

 

As far as square riggers are concerned, I have seen videos on YouTube showing royals being hauled to the top and being set in this method on three masted ships. As Popeye said, only light yards and sails could be handled this way.

Edited November 6, 2022 by Dr PR